Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

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donjohnsan
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Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby donjohnsan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:14 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I experience a lot of psychological 'problems' that I still seem to want to get rid off. Fears of people, fear of aggression even when there's no need, worrying a lot about how I will be evaluated, or worrying about general life problems. I do a lot of worrying. I kind of hope something there will change.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
Did a lot of inquiry, realised I don't have control, or rather that there is no I to have or not have control.
Or maybe I should be more honest, and say I can't find an I that could have control. But that seems like an obvious thing really. I can't find "I" because "I" itself can only produce that which is observed, and can therefore never observe itself. It can only create more objects and concepts for me to 'see'. It's like a camera cannot take a picture of itself.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?
I'm going to try to be open, but I do hope It'll start a process of unwinding these fears and tendencies to worry. I guess I shouldn't expect that.

You can call me Donny by the way :)

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:50 pm

Hi Donny,

Nice to meet you and thank for your intro.

First question, look at a foot. What makes it MY foot?

Share discoveries,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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donjohnsan
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby donjohnsan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:00 pm

Hi John,

Thank you so much for your willingness to guide me.
That's a fun question.

At first it seems obvious why it's my foot. Considering it a bit longer, it seems that it's only interpreted as 'my foot' because of the complexity of the sensations associated with it. And there is a sense that "I" can control the foot. I realise that I can't know beforehand what this supposed control will be, and therefore maybe we can't really call it control, but it feels a lot like control. To be honest I'm confused here. I'm not sure why there is this belief that there is control, even though I cannot find the actual decision process, or the one who is supposed to be controlling it.
Hope that's wasn't too intellectual.

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:04 pm

Hi Donny,
Hi John,

Thank you so much for your willingness to guide me.
That's a fun question.

At first it seems obvious why it's my foot. Considering it a bit longer, it seems that it's only interpreted as 'my foot' because of the complexity of the sensations associated with it. And there is a sense that "I" can control the foot. I realise that I can't know beforehand what this supposed control will be, and therefore maybe we can't really call it control, but it feels a lot like control. To be honest I'm confused here. I'm not sure why there is this belief that there is control, even though I cannot find the actual decision process, or the one who is supposed to be controlling it.
Hope that's wasn't too intellectual.
Set control aside for now.

And just sit and look at, say, the right foot.

What is it, in the experience of it, such that were that not there, it would be a foot, not YOUR foot. :)

Take some time. No, right or wrong answers. Just play lightly.

Share any discoveries,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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donjohnsan
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby donjohnsan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:12 pm

A combination of things. Mostly sensations.
* The sense of touch.
* The sense of skeletal movement / muscle movement.
* Feelings of warm and cold.
* The fact that it's attached to my leg, etc.
* The fact that the foot seems to be used as a tool by me.

(I'm using the word "fact" loosely here by the way ;) )

That's all I can come up with for now..

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:15 pm

A combination of things. Mostly sensations.
* The sense of touch.
* The sense of skeletal movement / muscle movement.
* Feelings of warm and cold.
* The fact that it's attached to my leg, etc.
* The fact that the foot seems to be used as a tool by me.

(I'm using the word "fact" loosely here by the way ;) )

That's all I can come up with for now..
If you take these away, one by one - see if ANY have an impact on the experience of this being MY foot.

e.g. if the sense of touch wasn't there - would it still be MY foot, albeit a numb feeling one. :)

Thank you,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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donjohnsan
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby donjohnsan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:05 pm

Hmm that's kind of weird to imagine. In one sense yes, but in another sense a foot I call mine would be moving without me having any sense of moving it. I guess the main idea of "me" moving the foot actually comes from the muscular and sensory feedback.
Hmmmmm.. well let's keep it simple and say yes. I suppose I would still feel like it's my foot. So it's just a belief, is that what you're pointing me to?

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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:23 pm

Hmm that's kind of weird to imagine. In one sense yes, but in another sense a foot I call mine would be moving without me having any sense of moving it. I guess the main idea of "me" moving the foot actually comes from the muscular and sensory feedback.
Hmmmmm.. well let's keep it simple and say yes. I suppose I would still feel like it's my foot. So it's just a belief, is that what you're pointing me to?
Let's explore. If it was a belief, how does a belief show up?
What is a belief anyway?

Thank you,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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donjohnsan
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby donjohnsan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:11 pm

Well.. right now it seems like a belief is something prior to thinking, something I can't really explain.
Because I can look at my foot, not think in the form of language, and still feel like the foot is mine.
So it seems to be something before language. Like a feeling or an intuition..? Not sure what to call it.

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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:24 pm

Well.. right now it seems like a belief is something prior to thinking, something I can't really explain.
Because I can look at my foot, not think in the form of language, and still feel like the foot is mine.
So it seems to be something before language. Like a feeling or an intuition..? Not sure what to call it.
Excellent. Proper looking that. :)

Ok - what you got for sure is a particular FEELING - and that feeling had been experienced AS MEANING 'my foot'.

So - look again as the sense of this being MY foot.

Notice that feeling that feels like the foot is mine.

Be with the feeling, purely as a feeling. As subtle as it is. Hold it in attention, and feel it, watch it, like some strange tropical fish you've never seen before and know nothing about.

Share what shows up.

Ta,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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donjohnsan
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby donjohnsan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:45 pm

I will keep at it with this for a little bit and report back later. The feeling seems difficult to focus on, but it's ok, have time!

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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:59 pm

I will keep at it with this for a little bit and report back later. The feeling seems difficult to focus on, but it's ok, have time!
cool. It will be elusive now you're looking for it. :)

strange that. what if this so-called dependable feeling that indicates MY foot is not quite what it seems?

What then? Who's foot is it without that feeling?

best wishes,
john
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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donjohnsan
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby donjohnsan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:21 pm

It actually doesn't feel like my foot. lol. Looking at 'my foot', truthfully, it seems that I actually have no idea what this foot being 'my foot' means. It's still different from other feet though, since I can feel it, but can't feel the feet of 'others'. But maybe that's something to worry about later? ;-)

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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:27 pm

It actually doesn't feel like my foot. lol. Looking at 'my foot', truthfully, it seems that I actually have no idea what this foot being 'my foot' means. It's still different from other feet though, since I can feel it, but can't feel the feet of 'others'. But maybe that's something to worry about later? ;-)
ok :)

Weird huh?

What about MY hand?

/john
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne
https://johnchristophercoaching.wordpress.com/

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donjohnsan
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Re: Would like to be guided by s-p-a-c-e

Postby donjohnsan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:50 pm

I'm assuming you mean MY hand and not yours? :-P
It's quite extraordinary really. It is starting to seem to me that somehow all these different tensions lead to an illusion of choosing and doing, while really it's just a hand, just a foot, not under control, at best I'm aware of something that seems like a decision not made by me. Like ... hmm, observing how someone else operates a machine in a factory, or something like that. He (mind) chooses to push buttons (feeling of choice, thoughts) -- which I can observe. Then the machine (body) does stuff, and I observe and feel it working (seeing and other sensations), but "I" as the guy standing on the side have nothing to do with it. I am just receiving input in various modalities of what's going on. That's the image coming up right now.


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