too much spiritual seeking...

[robert303]

My name is Robert. I am long time seeker, many roads, books, techniques, spiritual experience, bliss, peace, glimpses of "no self". But it is only story about me, story who makes me exhausted.
What do I expect of this conversation - there is a magic (for me of course) sentence " what was seen, can not be unseen" My expectation is end this spiritual searching but there is other hidden expectation - grab only good times in my life (it's unrealistic i know...).

I'm a difficult case
May I have a Guide please?

[Alexw]

Hi Robert,

Great to have you here!
My name is Alex and I am happy to discuss this with you.

But it is only story about me, story who makes me exhausted.

Yes, its only story, true... but what exactly is it that is exhausted? Look right now at this experience - look, hear, taste, touch, smell - where is the one that is exhausted? Can it be found in this experience or only in thoughts about it?
When you discount thought about this moment, this experience, what is there? Is there a "you" doing the experiencing?
Sit down and close your eyes and simply listen... where is the listener? Is there one that is separate from the sound? Is there a border between you and the sound? What do you find?

My expectation is end this spiritual searching but there is other hidden expectation - grab only good times in my life (it's unrealistic i know...).

Expectation 1 is perfectly fine, but expectation 2 would imply that there is a you having a life... Lets first try to find this I/self that seems to have a life and then see if this entity can have "only good times"... Agree?

Regards
Alex

[robert303]

Great to have you here!
My name is Alex and I am happy to discuss this with you.

Thank You !!!

Yes, its only story, true... but what exactly is it that is exhausted? Look right now at this experience - look, hear, taste, touch, smell - where is the one that is exhausted? Can it be found in this experience or only in thoughts about it?

What is exhausted without thoughts about it ?
look - I don't see exhausted only mental images projecting "how to be exhausted"
hear - I don't hear exhausted
taste - I don't taste this state
touch - I don't touch this state, there are only sensations in my body
smell - I don't smell this state
I can't find "Me - exhausted". When I looking at life I can't find me, only thoughts narrating story about me. But there is a strong sense of self and I lost in story. When I looking at this sense of self there are only sensations and thoughts. I don't know why this is strong and fooling me.

When you discount thought about this moment, this experience, what is there? Is there a "you" doing the experiencing?

I can't find "me" only thoughts appear and sensations in body. Somehow thoughts and sensations are connecting together.

Sit down and close your eyes and simply listen... where is the listener? Is there one that is separate from the sound? Is there a border between you and the sound? What do you find?

I can't find listener there is only sound. Border appear only in thoughts, i can't draw a borderline between sounds and me.

Expectation 1 is perfectly fine, but expectation 2 would imply that there is a you having a life... Lets first try to find this I/self that seems to have a life and then see if this entity can have "only good times"... Agree?

Agree

I can't find I who can have "only good times".

[Alexw]

But there is a strong sense of self and I lost in story. When I looking at this sense of self there are only sensations and thoughts. I don't know why this is strong and fooling me.

Can you describe this sense of self? How is it experienced? Is it a physical sensation, a thought or a combination of both? Is this sense of self here all the time or only when there is a thought about it? When you watch a movie, is it still there? If it is only temporary, can it be your "true self"?

Who is the one that is fooled by this sense? Look... how does that work? Is "I am fooled by XYZ" any more than another thought about a previous chain of thought? Can a thought be fooled by more thought?

[robert303]

Can you describe this sense of self? How is it experienced? Is it a physical sensation, a thought or a combination of both?

Right now, when I sitting on chair and looking at screen sense of self is sensation in body and thoughts about this. But this thoughts is subtle like a breeze. Sensation is strong constant physical feeling in body. Yes, I say that this sense of self is combination of both.

Is this sense of self here all the time or only when there is a thought about it? When you watch a movie, is it still there? If it is only temporary, can it be your "true self"?

Well, sens of self is not all time, sometimes I don't remember about this. Move film is good example when sense of self disappear because I'm lost in film.
Can it be your "true self"? - what a strong question I fell confused...
It can't be "true self" it's a lie but huge.

Who is the one that is fooled by this sense? Look... how does that work? Is "I am fooled by XYZ" any more than another thought about a previous chain of thought? Can a thought be fooled by more thought?

Hmm... seems thoughts build stories about this sense. It's like core of stories. Let's say, for example thought about angry at something appear then "I" feel sensation in "my" body next thoughts strengthen this core. It's look like endless loop (perpetuum mobile of lie :D ).
This "fooled" it's a stream of thoughts about me being fooled.

Another strong question "Can a thought be fooled by more thought?" - thoughts say me YES but when I looking at this question I feeling confused because I see that one thought occuring after the second. Only story glue thoughts in one fooled "me".

Greetings

[Alexw]

Great observations! Well done!

Sensation is strong constant physical feeling in body. Yes, I say that this sense of self is combination of both.

What makes this sensations different to, lets say a little tingling in your stomach or the pressure at your back when sitting on a chair? Does the sensation itself tell you "This is me!" or is this only a thought labelling it as I/self?
Try to observe how this sense of self shifts during the day. Sometimes you might find the sense of self behind your eyes, especially when you read or think about something, then your sense of self might shift into your stomach if you are in a situation where you are maybe a bit unsure about the outcome... Do you see how these are all just physical sensations that are labelled as a sense of self simply because your attention is in this part of your body at the time? Try to observe this during your day and see what you find.

when I looking at this question I feeling confused because I see that one thought occuring after the second. Only story glue thoughts in one fooled "me".

Yes! :-)
So... what is this "I", this separate self?
Can you find it anywhere outside of story-land?
If you don't think of it, does it exist at all?

[robert303]

What makes this sensations different to, lets say a little tingling in your stomach or the pressure at your back when sitting on a chair?

Amazing questions

Only different is that I know this sensation it's me. Pressure at my back is pressure, little tingling in my stomach is tingling. This belief in sense of self is strong maybe because I always thinking it's me.

Does the sensation itself tell you "This is me!" or is this only a thought labelling it as I/self?

Hmm... Sensation itself whitout labeling is only sensation.

Try to observe how this sense of self shifts during the day. Sometimes you might find the sense of self behind your eyes, especially when you read or think about something, then your sense of self might shift into your stomach if you are in a situation where you are maybe a bit unsure about the outcome...

Indeed, this sensation shifting on different part of upper body. From stomach to head.

Do you see how these are all just physical sensations that are labelled as a sense of self simply because your attention is in this part of your body at the time?

Thats right, without attention I don't remember about sense of self. In daily activities many times I lost in this activities then sense of self simply disappear.

So... what is this "I", this separate self?
Can you find it anywhere outside of story-land?
If you don't think of it, does it exist at all?

It's strange, I know that "I" who want to be separate it's only story. But this illusion still working like a separate person not only as stream of thoughts/story. Maybe I too thinking about this.

I can't find it anywhere. All I can find it's story/labels and without thoughts it is only THIS.

No it not exist.

Thank You !
Greetings !

[Alexw]

Thats right, without attention I don't remember about sense of self. In daily activities many times I lost in this activities then sense of self simply disappear.

Yes, perfectly right!

How does attention work..? Do you control what attention focusses on? Is there an entity controlling this life, making decisions and choosing A over B?
When something happens, e.g. a twitch in your leg, do you decide to pay attention to that or does it simply happen?
When you feel hungry, do you decide to get up and go to the fridge to get some food? Or is this simply happening?
I know, nearly everyone would say "What a stupid question! Of course I decide to get up and go to the fridge...", but is this true?

Try this: Think of a number between 1 and 10. See how it appears as a thought... Did you choose the number or did it simply arise? Try it a few times... what do you find?

It's strange, I know that "I" who want to be separate it's only story. But this illusion still working like a separate person not only as stream of thoughts/story.

Yes, the illusion is still working... seeing that something is "not real" doesn't mean it will automatically vanish, does it? It just means that you know its not the real thing and thus your conditioning will adapt incorporating this new knowledge.
When you found out that Santa is not real, did all Santas in all shopping malls automatically vanish? Or where they still there, but now you simply knew that they are just a fat guy in disguise..?

[robert303]

How does attention work..? Do you control what attention focusses on? Is there an entity controlling this life, making decisions and choosing A over B?

Now I focusing attention on cup, next on the notes and next on the small lamp on the table. I don't know how I choose this objects for attention. It's spontaneous. That's right - without control. I can think about object of attention but how I choose what thought I think next ? I don't know it's automatic. I have two crayons, red (A) and green (B). Thought appear "take the green crayon" then I take it. It's working without control, I don't know why I took green crayon (maybe I will draw a grass ;) ).

When something happens, e.g. a twitch in your leg, do you decide to pay attention to that or does it simply happen?

I can't decide, twitch in my leg attracting attention spontaneous.

When you feel hungry, do you decide to get up and go to the fridge to get some food? Or is this simply happening?

It's simply happening, feeling hungry arise then thoughts appear and creating story "Well, it's time to make a breakfast". Next i go to fridge, open it and... ...it's empty. Next thought appear "I must go shopping".

I know, nearly everyone would say "What a stupid question! Of course I decide to get up and go to the fridge...", but is this true?

It's not stupid it's strong assumption that "I always making decision about my life" without investigation - true or false. It's seems like "I chose this" but there is one evidence about this - story. Without thoughts I don't know how it's working, it's simply happening.

Try this: Think of a number between 1 and 10. See how it appears as a thought... Did you choose the number or did it simply arise? Try it a few times... what do you find?

7 simply arise, next 3 appear, 2 arise, 8...
It's like a lottery - random numbers in mind.
I find thoughts and feeling in head but it's spontaneous arising.
I can't choose, numbers, thoughts and what/where in body I feeling - all of this is spontaneous.

Yes, the illusion is still working... seeing that something is "not real" doesn't mean it will automatically vanish, does it? It just means that you know its not the real thing and thus your conditioning will adapt incorporating this new knowledge.
When you found out that Santa is not real, did all Santas in all shopping malls automatically vanish? Or where they still there, but now you simply knew that they are just a fat guy in disguise..?

Yes.
I like analogy "mirage on the desert". I know it's a only mirage but this even so not disappear.
Yes, Santa, too. Fat guy in disguise not disappear.

[Alexw]

I like analogy "mirage on the desert". I know it's a only mirage but this even so not disappear.
Yes, Santa, too. Fat guy in disguise not disappear.

Hahah... yes the fat guy doesn't disappear... but now he simply is a fat guy, not Santa anymore...

So... do you think you have crossed the gateless gate? Who/what is it that crosses it? Is there someone to cross it? What does "seeing through the illusion of a separate self" mean to you now? Do you think you have seen? Are there any doubts that this I/self is only a story? How does it make you feel?

[robert303]

So... do you think you have crossed the gateless gate?

I don't know but yesterday something changed. Seems like a litte distance from identification. When I looked at me and surroundings I thought "separation is only story without this it is only this what is is".

Who/what is it that crosses it? Is there someone to cross it?

Strange but when I looking at this question I can't find someone who crossed the gate. But in thinking everyone can cross the gate. Hmm... Story - man in the story is that guy who can cross.

What does "seeing through the illusion of a separate self" mean to you now?

Seeing through the illusion is looking at life as it is. Simply, story is story, feeling is feeling , hearing is hearing, etc. all this spontaneous appear and next disappear. Spearated doer living only in stories, outside stories I can't find "me".

Do you think you have seen? Are there any doubts that this I/self is only a story? How does it make you feel?

I have doubt but... when I looking at this doubt I see smart stories about me who have doubt about this process. All this is strange and too simply for me but this is also stories. It's like a joke, anywhere I looking with stories in head there are spearated world with people but when I looking at stories there are only stories about world. There is another joke, sometimes I lost in stories but when I looking at this experience I can't find me lost in stories. Only thoughts and feelings appear.
Nothing changed maybe I feel more relaxed, more lighter.

[Alexw]

I have doubt but... when I looking at this doubt I see smart stories about me who have doubt about this process.

Yes, true, doubt is also not more than a story about someone that has a doubt - which is not more than a thought stating ""But... but... this can not be so simple..."
What is making this experience complicated? What adds all the subject-object relations? All these likes and dislikes..?

I don't know but yesterday something changed. Seems like a litte distance from identification.

Have you always identified with this self/I? Or have you learned to do that? When a baby is born, do you think it knows anything about self and other?
Lets assume you have acquired this knowledge... what does it take to unlearn? Why would it be so much different to learning? When you have learned you simply took others' opinions and teachings and accepted them for absolute truth. Now you are questioning these beliefs and by doing so (and by continuing to do so) these beliefs will slowly fade... Be as persistent with the questioning and looking as you have been with the learning...

Have a look at these questions and see how you go:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Alex

[robert303]

What is making this experience complicated? What adds all the subject-object relations? All these likes and dislikes..?

The answer is short - THOUGHTS. All this mess is in the stories. Stories like this " Ohh it's too simply, it must be something else, something greater, I must still looking".

Have you always identified with this self/I? Or have you learned to do that? When a baby is born, do you think it knows anything about self and other?

It's a strong habit. I learned to do that in my early childhood when I heard first stories about "me" and surroundings. No baby don't know about all this.

Lets assume you have acquired this knowledge... what does it take to unlearn? Why would it be so much different to learning?

Because it is core of separated life without control. When all this seen then process of unlearning automatically happens without this "I"/doer/me.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

1) No, there's no separate self in any way, shape or form, anywhere. There never was a self.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

2) Illusion started in early childhood in first stories about separated entity which I heard when I was baby. Illusion is an assumption based on stories. We believe in it without checking that is true or false.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

3) It's more distance from identification. I feel more relaxed. Perspective.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

4) Hmm... I think it was Your questions about attention. I was think that I control attention especially on sense of self. When I saw how works attention then I think "woooow it's a strange thing, where is doer, I can't find".

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from recent experience.

5) Decision - I have on table one pair of scissor and one cup. Story appear "I want to drink some water then I take a cup" then hand move a cup towards to mouth. Story appear "I write this on LU". No doer only thoughts, feeling, tasting of water.

Intention - Story appear "I must quickly go to toilet, too much coffee before breakfast". There is only thoughts.

Free will, choice, control - hmm it's seems also like a story but lets test it "I like staying at home but this night is a good party, oh no again hangover, better I stay and watch good movies". Only story about me who have control about choice.

What makes things happen? - it's look like free flow of experiences.

What are you responsible for? - In stories I'm only responsible for one thing: my life. Without stories there is no me who was responsible.

6) Anything to add?

6) I don't know, maybe big THANK YOU for Your job :).

[Alexw]

Thank you for your answers!
It was a pleasure talking to you.

Can you send me a private message on this forum with your Facebook name (if you have one :-) so we can invite you to join the LU FB groups? A LU admin will contact you soon with further details as well.

Cu on Facebook
Alex

[robert303]

Thank You so much Alex for guiding me through the this process :).
I don't have a facebook account.

Greetings!