Scratching the surface

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tupapa
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Scratching the surface

Postby tupapa » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:10 pm

Hello Everyone,

First a bit on my journey; After going from J Krushanmurti, Eckhart Tolle and Sam Harris, I eventually found both Dzocheng and Vipassama practices.

After a fair amount of reading, youtubing and some meditative practice I eventually came upon the realization which you seem to reference frequently;

"There is no self, it is a fabrication of the mind, an illusion Akin to the flatness of planet earth some centuries ago. The feeling that we call be an "I" is simply what it feels like to think, without realizing that one is thinking. All there is is simply a stream of thoughts, feelings, beliefs, sensory information that manifests itself in consciousness"

The idea that I can observe without being the observer is a trully liberating one, probably one of the most important ideas I have encountered.

I understand it conceptually, and have felt like "no self" at some points during my meditation practice (30 minutes a day), however, by no means do I think my mind is enlightened, nor close to being in that state.

Most of the time I still experience the self, and I am hijacked by my stream of thoughts on a daily basis.

My question is, having internalized and felt sun an insight, why do I still identify with the appearances in consciousness? Is this constant non-identification even possible? Do I just need to carry on meditating or maybe even go on retreat for months until the spell is finally broken and I never identify with thought again?

Sorry, that was more than one question smile emoticon I feel like I have reached a fairly profound level of understanding, but would require some guidance on how to carry on.

Many thanks in advance!

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Petrus
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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby Petrus » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:23 pm

Hi Tupapa (is that what I should call you?),

I will be happy to guide you.
The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Acually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site ->http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.
I am Dutch (GMT+2), what about you?

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

All above is my standard beginning text, I think you read it, respond if you like...
My question is, having internalized and felt sun an insight, why do I still identify with the appearances in consciousness?
This thing you say is identifying, where does it reside? How big is it? What form has it?
Do I just need to carry on meditating or maybe even go on retreat for months until the spell is finally broken and I never identify with thought again?
No

Warm regards Petrus

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tupapa
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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby tupapa » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:55 am

Hi Tupapa (is that what I should call you?),
Yes, Tupapa is great.

I will be happy to guide you.
The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Acually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?
I am seeking a source of well being that isn´t contingent upon the fulfillment of my goals, desires, pleassures etc.. I consider breaking the spell of the self as a means to this aforementioned end, not as an end in itself.
Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site ->http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.
I am Dutch (GMT+2), what about you?
All good with the groundrules, and I read the disclaimer. I am Spanish but currently living in Colombia, so GMT -5

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
My expectations for seeing through the illusion are the following;

- To find a source of well being that isn´t contingent upon the fulfillment of my goals, desires, pleassures etc..
- To become aware of what is arising in consciousness at any given time and to loose the identification with whatever is arising. In this way, I would expect to disempower my neurotic thought patterns, fears and desires.
- To live in the present moment, to avoid becoming lost in thought, navigating through past and present.
All above is my standard beginning text, I think you read it, respond if you like...
My question is, having internalized and felt sun an insight, why do I still identify with the appearances in consciousness?
This thing you say is identifying, where does it reside? How big is it? What form has it?
The thing that is identifying seems to reside on the surface, it is as big as whatever is capturing my attention and takes whatever form is appearing in consciousness. For instance, I´ll find myself throughout the day being lost in thought, worrying about things that aren´t going right and for long periods of time I will be captured by these worries, until I eventually realize that I have been hijacked and I become the observer, for a few seconds, until some other appearance captures my attention and again I am lost in thought.

Other times I will get angry and anger will take me on a trip where I will be pondering upon the sources of the anger ad nauseum, what I could do in order to get my own back or how I can get even, or how I can take revenge... Even though I might at times, take a step back and become the observer of these emotions and thoughts arising in my mind, they are not disempowered and they carry on hijacking my attention, albeit maybe to a lesser degree to how they would if I was unaware of them.
Do I just need to carry on meditating or maybe even go on retreat for months until the spell is finally broken and I never identify with thought again?
No

Warm regards Petrus
Thanks Petrus! I look forward to this exchange, as long as you don´t think my expectations are completely of track from what is being offered.

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby Petrus » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:57 am

Hi Tupapa,
To find a source of well being that isn´t contingent upon the fulfillment of my goals, desires, pleassures etc..
Dont you think this is a goal you want to fulfill?
You will not find anything, but it is possible to see what is.
to loose the identification with whatever is arising
For losing identification, you have to be identificated in the first place.
My question is: what is there to be identificated?
Is there such a thing as "an I" to get identificated? Where is it?
In this way, I would expect to disempower my neurotic thought patterns, fears and desires.
Is there really someone owning thought, fear or desire?
To live in the present moment
How could you not?
to avoid becoming lost in thought, navigating through past and present.
There is no-one lost. There is no-one!
So if you think there is, first find this I.
The thing that is identifying seems to reside on the surface
It seems so, but is it true?
I´ll find myself throughout the day being lost in thought
So in between this soup of thoughts you find an I?

Lets investigate thoughts:
Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?


Warm regards, Petrus

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tupapa
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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby tupapa » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:02 pm

Hi Tupapa,
To find a source of well being that isn´t contingent upon the fulfillment of my goals, desires, pleassures etc..
Dont you think this is a goal you want to fulfill?
You will not find anything, but it is possible to see what is.
Yes, the last one I would hope :D

to loose the identification with whatever is arising
For losing identification, you have to be identificated in the first place.
My question is: what is there to be identificated?
Is there such a thing as "an I" to get identificated? Where is it?
No, there isn´t an I, there is a habitual tendency to identify with whatever is arising, without being aware of this identification.
In this way, I would expect to disempower my neurotic thought patterns, fears and desires.
Is there really someone owning thought, fear or desire?
No, they are simply transitory appearances in consciousness.
To live in the present moment
How could you not?
The conditioning that has taken place throughout the years seems to prevent staying in the present for meaningful periods of time. One is used to routinely jump on the train wagon towards past and future.
to avoid becoming lost in thought, navigating through past and present.
There is no-one lost. There is no-one!
So if you think there is, first find this I.
I have looked and can´t find nothing else than a feeling of being an I.
The thing that is identifying seems to reside on the surface
It seems so, but is it true?
No, when I look for it attentively, it is nowhere to be found
I´ll find myself throughout the day being lost in thought
So in between this soup of thoughts you find an I?
No, being in this soup IS what it feels like to be an I


Lets investigate thoughts:
Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?


I don´t know where they come from. They arise in consciousness as if they were invoked from another dimension, although sometimes I may notice patterns of causality.

They all have the same destination as where they came from; An undisclosed location out of my field of awareness.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?


No, the thought will remain in my field of awareness until the next appearance in consciousness captures my attention. Some thoughts are abrasive, they refuse to leave consciousness or I refuse to accept them, they are the devils that seem to be mostly responsible of suffering and the present moment avoidance.


Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No, the I is simply a habitual feeling, one which I have felt throughout most of my life and which I can best describe as thinking without realising one is thinking. The I doesn´t generate the thoughts, it is simply another thought appearing in consciousness.


Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

No, it is just a feeling in consciousness, an intuition that has been carved into experience through the years,


Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Of course, I have looked for this immutable thinker of thoughts and haven´t found it, neither outside or inside of me, it can only be another transitory appearance in consciousness.


Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

No
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No, but I can be aware of them

Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?

No, but I can change the way I frame things and where I center my focal point, I can also create conditions that are more or less conducive towards certain thought patterns.

Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?


No, thoughts are simply appearing in consciousness and the illusive "I" identifies with them (most of the time)

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?

Neither, thoughts, like every other thing I have ever experienced in my life, are appearances in consciousness (where else could they appear). Being the thinker is what it feels like to be thinking without realising one is thinking.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, but it is possible to be aware of the thought as it is arising, in the moment of its inception. I find this is a way to disempower the thought, but there doesn´t seem to be a way to stop the from appearing.

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?
[/quote]
No, the thought I is just like any other ordinary thought, simply a transitory appearance in consciousness.

On the other hand, I found that the feeling of being an I can be dispelled by meditating. Occasionally, during my practice, a level of attentive awareness is attained where everything I am observing a stream of sensory data, inner feelings and thoughts simply arising, including the habitual mode of thinking that I call the self, by contemplating the transitoriness of all things, any illusion of authorship and identity is broken and a profound degree of freedom and peace is attained. THis is the state of mind that I would look to cultivate.

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby Petrus » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:24 pm

Hi Tupapa,
..there is a habitual tendency to identify with whatever is arising
What is identify? You need an I to identify, but there is no I there.
So how you could possibly identify?
One is used to routinely jump on the train wagon towards past and future.
If there is one, it could. But there is no one...
I have looked and can´t find nothing else than a feeling of being an I.
Right! A feeling of or a thought of. So nothing real
No, being in this soup IS what it feels like to be an I
Haha. Isnt that just another thought/feeling ?
This I of yours that you are talking about is still not taking a real form, isnt it?
I don´t know where they come from.
Right.
They arise in consciousness as if they were invoked from another dimension, although sometimes I may notice patterns of causality. They all have the same destination as where they came from; An undisclosed location out of my field of awareness.
This is thinking, or second hand knowledge again.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No, it is just a feeling in consciousness
Why you add "in consciousness"?
It is just a feeling, right? Consciousnes is a concept/thought too.
No, but I can change the way I frame things and where I center my focal point, I can also create conditions that are more or less conducive towards certain thought patterns.
So there is an I after all? And it can do things?
You said you couldnt find it, that it is a thought. So how a thought can change anything or create conditions?
I found that the feeling of being an I can be dispelled by meditating.
Why you would want to dispel a feeling (if there would be an I to do so)?
It is just there, like all the other thoughts and feelings. No one there to do anything about that.

Warm regards, Petrus

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tupapa
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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby tupapa » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:14 pm

..there is a habitual tendency to identify with whatever is arising
What is identify? You need an I to identify, but there is no I there.
So how you could possibly identify?
Maybe identify is the wrong word. I mean a tendency for my awareness to become whatever thought is arising-
One is used to routinely jump on the train wagon towards past and future.
If there is one, it could. But there is no one...
I have looked and can´t find nothing else than a feeling of being an I.
Right! A feeling of or a thought of. So nothing real
No, being in this soup IS what it feels like to be an I
Haha. Isnt that just another thought/feeling ?
This I of yours that you are talking about is still not taking a real form, isnt it?
No, I guess it isn´t :D
I don´t know where they come from.
Right.
They arise in consciousness as if they were invoked from another dimension, although sometimes I may notice patterns of causality. They all have the same destination as where they came from; An undisclosed location out of my field of awareness.
This is thinking, or second hand knowledge again.
Ok, lets just stick with I don´t know where they come from :D
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No, it is just a feeling in consciousness
Why you add "in consciousness"?
It is just a feeling, right? Consciousnes is a concept/thought too.
Ok, but don´t we need these concepts in order to communicate? I add "in consciousness" to emphasize that it´s simply a feeling that appears without one ever becoming it.
No, but I can change the way I frame things and where I center my focal point, I can also create conditions that are more or less conducive towards certain thought patterns.
So there is an I after all? And it can do things?
You said you couldnt find it, that it is a thought. So how a thought can change anything or create conditions?
For instance, I can go buy groceries and avoid buying unhealthy foods because I want to loose weight. Instead I buy fruit and create conditions that are favourable to my weight loss (no choclate in the fridge :D)

I can also interpret the things that occur in my life in a certain way, for instance if a car runs over my foot and I lose a toe, instead of dreading the event I can be thankful that I didn´t lose my whole leg.

I am not advocating free will, I understand these events are causally determined but my actions are not free of consequence, and upon reflection it seems like there are many ways for me to frame my life that are more conducive towards happiness.
I found that the feeling of being an I can be dispelled by meditating.
Why you would want to dispel a feeling (if there would be an I to do so)?
It is just there, like all the other thoughts and feelings. No one there to do anything about that.

Warm regards, Petrus
[/quote]

Because dispelling the feeling sets my mind free. I am no longer a hostage to my neurotic though patterns, desires, fears etc... The mind basically becomes free from the usual egoic sources of suffering.

Thanks Petrus!

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby Petrus » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:06 am

Hi Tupapa,
I mean a tendency for my awareness to become whatever thought is arising
You experience thoughts. Impossible to become one! Check that please!
It is possible however to have the thought: "I am that thought". But does it make that true?
Is the contents of that thought real?
Ok, but don´t we need these concepts in order to communicate?
That is true ofcourse.
But the purpose of our conversation here is to make you see clearly. And therefore it is a good thing to realize that awareness, consciousness, etc are mere concepts... Direct experience doesnt need concepts.
Please read this article : http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/
Maybe it makes things more clear.
I can go buy groceries ...
Is there a real I that buys groceries?
I can also interpret the things...
Is there a real I interpreting? Or do you experience thoughts about experiences in your life?
...but my actions are not free of consequence
Is there really an I doing stuff?
Because dispelling the feeling sets my mind free.
Do you really own a mind? And if you really insist, can a mind be free or not free?

It is possible to describe life without using the word I.
This word I is not necessary, because it is not pointing to something real.
You can use "I" ofcourse, but that doesnt make it something real.

Warm regards, Petrus

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby tupapa » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:59 pm

Hi Tupapa,

You experience thoughts. Impossible to become one! Check that please!
It is possible however to have the thought: "I am that thought". But does it make that true?
Is the contents of that thought real?
Hi Petrus, some time ago, there was a strong sense of identification with thought in the mind. What resulted, was a long period of intense unwarranted suffering, the identification was so strong as to “become the thought” that is for the awareness to become so obsessed as to refusing to let go of negative thought patterns.

The past 4 years, have inadvertently become a gradual process towards losing some of that identification, becoming more accustomed with 3) an unmistakable sense of Aliveness from the article you reference.

This might be why concepts such as becoming the thought or being hijacked are used, they seem to depict perfectly a very real and dreadful state of being that was experienced.

Is there a real I that buys groceries?
No, there is an idea that arises in the mind (Buy Groceries), then some deliberation (The traffic is terrible today, maybe tomorrow), more deliberation (But the fridge is empty and Mc Donalds one block away.., then a decision (I have to lose weight, lets buy some veggies).

These are all just thoughts arising, unauthored. The “I” is nowhere to be found, I look for this elusive entity, it just seems like a habitual way of thinking and being with the mind. In the past, this “I” would feel like the author and the director of this stream of thinking.

This feeling is no longer there, currently, being an “I” feel more like being the observer of whatever is arising.
Is there a real I interpreting? Or do you experience thoughts about experiences in your life?
The latter, thoughts about life are being experienced, some thoughts lead to a positive framing of life and others make it a perpetual drama, regardless of outside circumstances.
Do you really own a mind? And if you really insist, can a mind be free or not free?
It is possible to describe life without using the word I.
This word I is not necessary, because it is not pointing to something real.
You can use "I" ofcourse, but that doesnt make it something real.
Ownership of the mind, interesting question… It seems like the brain is closely connected to whatever is happening in my mind. The brain is connected to the body, and chemical imbalances or diseases certainly affect the “contents of the mind, my mind”.

By my mind, I don´t mean to imply there is an egoic entity hiding within it. What I mean is that the contents of the mind which is being experienced subjectively, are different from the contents that any other person experiences, so even though all minds might rest upon the same foundation (an unmistakable sense of aliveness), it is clear to me that each individual's mental construct is completely different.

Under this definition there doesn´t seem to be a conflict between referring to your mind or my mind?

Warm Regards,

Tupapa.

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby Petrus » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:13 am

Hi Tupapa,
there was a strong sense of identification with thought in the mind.
No, there wasnt.
You experienced thoughts and feelings. And maybe it were not nice thought and feelings.You labeled it "identifaction".
But you could label it "sunshine" as well. Labels cannot change an experience. Experiences happen. Shit happens. Good experiences happen too. Life just is.
These are all just thoughts arising, unauthored. The “I” is nowhere to be found
Right!
What I mean is that the contents of the mind which is being experienced subjectively
It is such a persistant habit, to create a subject, an I, while in fact there isnt one.
You make "the contents of your mind" something separate from the world.
But in fact when there is an experience, a thought, there is only that. No others, no world, only that experience, after a while making place for another one.
So there is no subject experiencing something. Can you check that?

I like to ask some questions about the body now:
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
Can you feel where the body ends?

Do you have control over this body?
Can you locate a mind?

Can you feel your ears?
Does the body hear?
Or is there hearing?

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What does the body consist of in direct experience?
Are you this body?


Warm regards, Petrus

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby tupapa » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:51 pm

It is such a persistant habit, to create a subject, an I, while in fact there isnt one.
You make "the contents of your mind" something separate from the world.
But in fact when there is an experience, a thought, there is only that. No others, no world, only that experience, after a while making place for another one.
So there is no subject experiencing something. Can you check that?
Hi petrus, there is resistance to this idea you present… This example comes to mind;

We are both Indian villagers, you are a Hindu and I am a Christian. After feeling hungry for weeks, our common atheist friend decides to slaughter a cow to feed ourselves.
In your field of awareness, this act will be traumatic to say the least, you may be unable to sleep for weeks, and you will feel loads of pain.
My field of awareness will be full of anticipation and excitement, thoughts of a juicy steak will populate my awareness, pain will be non existant.

In this case we are both experiencing and framing the same reality in a completely different way. How do we refer to this difference in experience without using the term subjectivity?

I like to ask some questions about the body now:
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
NO, tall is just a thought.
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
There is a feeling of the body sinking into the chair, the left forearm pushing against the table, the wrists sitting on the laptop, but no direct feeling of weight or volume.
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
No, there is a feeling of the feet touching the ground
Can you feel where the body ends?
Very tricky, it seems like in my head, on top of my hear is where it ends, but it doesn´t quite seem that way. It feels like since I can´t see in this area, the body is ending.

Do you have control over this body?
Thoughts arise and they control the actions of the body.
Can you locate a mind?
What do you mean by mind? I seem to locate an inner space, where everything is arising.
Can you feel your ears?
No, what seem to appear are thought of what the ear feels like when it is touched.

Code: Select all

Does the body hear? Or is there hearing?
Hearing is happening, sounds are just appearing and being labelled.
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
The body is a form appearing, like any other thought
Is there an inside or outside?
There is only experience and awareness of experience. Regardless of it being a thought or sensory information, it is all presenting itself in a field of awareness.
What does the body consist of in direct experience?
It seems to consist of a set of experiences and feelings interconnected with thoughts; Warm-Hands, Pain- Back, Light-Eyes, Noise-Ears, heavyness-Legs etc…
Are you this body?
It seems like I am that field of awareness, full or void of content. The body is just one thing manifesting itself in this awareness, it doesn´t feel like I am the body. However, the body is one of those manifestations which has almost always been in awareness, which might explain why sometimes the feeling of being the body arises.

Warm regards, Tupapa

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby Petrus » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:26 pm

Hi Tupapa,
Hi petrus, there is resistance to this idea you present…
Aha, then we are coming somewhere now! :)
We are both Indian villagers, you are a Hindu and I am a Christian.
We are not!
That is exactly the point:
People think they are villagers, people think they are Hindu or Christian.
But in fact we are not!

You saw with the body questions, we even are not this body.
So how can I be a Hindu?

Everything is passing by, including I thoughts, including the thought of being an Indian, of being fat or thin or rich or tired...but they are not me.
I am not the thought of me too.
There is life, there is experiencing, not someone that is experiencing.
Can you see that?

Warm regards, Petrus

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby tupapa » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:08 pm

You saw with the body questions, we even are not this body.
So how can I be a Hindu?
I understand, but are we going to negate that beliefs about oneself exist? Even if there is no I, belifs still matter right? They shape and frame perception and in the case that was presented, a Hindus belief will shape the experience of the cow slaughter in a completely different fashion from the christians experience? Can this be agreed upon?
Everything is passing by, including I thoughts, including the thought of being an Indian, of being fat or thin or rich or tired...but they are not me.
I am not the thought of me too.
There is life, there is experiencing, not someone that is experiencing.
Can you see that?
Yes, I can see this, more clearly when I am meditating. But once this idea was understood, it changed the way life is experienced.

So, if we are not an I, what are we? Why is there such disparity on how we each perceive and frame whatever life presents?


Just a side note Petrus, I would really appreciate if we could try to maintain a daily communication? From what I read on the forum, it is important in order to gather momentum?

All the best,

Tupapa.

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Re: Scratching the surface

Postby Petrus » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:54 pm

Hi Tupapa,
I understand, but are we going to negate that beliefs about oneself exist?

Believes exist: There is a thought. And after that the thought: "I believe in that thought." That is called a belief.
Both thoughts are thoughts and not real. They exist as thought only.
So I can think about myself everything, but no one thought is real or true: it is just a thought.
a Hindus belief will shape the experience of the cow slaughter in a completely different fashion from the christians experience? Can this be agreed upon?
A belief is a thought and cannot shape anything!
Yes, I can see this, more clearly when I am meditating.
What is the difference between a meditating experience and a drinking coffee experience?
So, if we are not an I, what are we?
What about: "I dont know?"
Just a side note Petrus, I would really appreciate if we could try to maintain a daily communication? From what I read on the forum, it is important in order to gather momentum?
Normally I answer immedeately. But sometimes that is not possible. Sorry for that!

Warm regards, Petrus

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tupapa
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:55 pm

Re: Scratching the surface

Postby tupapa » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:20 pm

Believes exist: There is a thought. And after that the thought: "I believe in that thought." That is called a belief.
Both thoughts are thoughts and not real. They exist as thought only.
So I can think about myself everything, but no one thought is real or true: it is just a thought.
I agree with what you say entirely. My comment was more as follows;

We hold beliefs about the nature of reality, some of these we are aware of and other operate subconsciously. These beliefs filter what is perceived or what is emphasized from all the data that is entering through our senses from the physical world.

For instance, if a racist subconscious belief that black people are criminals was instilled during childhood, our awareness will tend to interpret black people as potential criminals and thoughts of fear or maybe even hatred will arise.

I am insure if this is even pertinent to our discussion but it is coming to mind.
A belief is a thought and cannot shape anything!
So in a way, wouldn´t you agree that a belief that blacks are criminals would taint your perception of the black man walking down the street towards you at 2 a.m.?
What is the difference between a meditating experience and a drinking coffee experience?
In my experience of meditation, it is easier to see thoughts arising, its like the mind is relaxed and there is an awareness of this stream of thoughts, images, sensory data appearing.

On the other hand there is drinking coffee; An hour ago I had breakfast, Coffee Eggs and Fruit, at the same time as I was eating and sipping coffee, I was on the phone catching up with my sister, and every now and then a thought would pop up about what had to be done at work today.

The two experiences seem to differ. DUring the latter, I vaguely recall tasting my breakfast, or my coffee, I was incredibly distracted and focused on the conversation with my sister.

DUring my meditation practice, it seems like the traffic slows down, and there is real awareness of what is happening in the present moment, almost like becoming an observer of what is arising. During my recent breakfast experience, it seemed like I was somehow more engaged with the thoughts.... I hope this is more or less clear.
Normally I answer immedeately. But sometimes that is not possible. Sorry for that!
Thanks Petrus! Again, really appreciate you spending your time on this!


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