Totally seeing through the belief in a separate self

[jgordon5]

For many years I meditated, attended different satsangs, went to India to an ashram, studied Hinduism, Tibetan buddhism and other paths. I heard of LU through another previous seeker whom you helped. I've been 'seeking'for 50 odd years and in the past 5 or 6 years I've been studying Vedanta which led me to non-duality and the direct path. I understand that I am not this separate self and sometimes I know it but it seems that conditioning is too strong. I hope the forum will help me to awaken and stay awake.

[Alexw]

Hi JGordon (please let me know how I should call you),

Great to have you here!
My name is Alex and I am happy to discuss this with you.

I understand that I am not this separate self and sometimes I know it

Can you tell me what it is that understands this? What does the understanding? Is there a separate entity/self that you can find that is doing the understanding? What is there when look at this moment, right now?

I hope the forum will help me to awaken and stay awake.

Can you please let me know how you define yourself. When you wake up, what do you think will be different? What is that wakes up?

Kind regards
Alex

[jgordon5]

Hi Alex,

Thank you for responding so quickly. My name is Jill so please call me that.
You asked, "What does the understanding?" The mind does, , so the seeming entity called Jill understands the concept. So if I look at that right now I know it to be untrue but I can see that it's a mind 'boot loop'. No, I cannot find a separate entity so logically I already know.

I think it would be useful if I really look at your questions for a little while.... I'll reply further when I've done that.
Thanks again.

All best wishes
Jill

[Alexw]

Hi Jill,

"What does the understanding?" The mind does...

Can you find this "mind" in your direct experience? Or is this only a conceptual entity? Is there anymore than simply a thought followed by more thought?

When you understand something a thought comes up "I understand!".

No, I cannot find a separate entity

But there is no entity there that understands, no "I/self" that would do that, right?

Is this any different with the rest of this experience?
When you sit down and just listen - there is sound - there is thought about the sound - "I hear a bird!"
Is there a listener that is separate from the sound? Is there a border between you and the sound? What is there?

I think it would be useful if I really look at your questions for a little while.... I'll reply further when I've done that.

OK, looking forward to receiving your reply.

Alex

[jgordon5]

[quote Can you tell me what it is that understands this? What does the understanding? Is there a separate entity/self that you can find that is doing the understanding? What is there when look at this moment, right now?
[/quote]

It's tricky to answer because then you're always talking in terms of separation. On a thinking level, my mind understands the concept of there not being a separate self. If I dig down a bit, as for example in the experiments in Greg Goode's book Direct Path, then it is known that all separation is conceptual and for a short while freedom is known or almost known. But I seem to have difficulty in staying with that! I soon revert to being 'me'.
When I look I can find no separate entity but as I said, I get involved with family and life and separate entity jumps straight back.

[quote Can you please let me know how you define yourself. When you wake up, what do you think will be different? What is that wakes up? [/quote]

I'm not sure that I understand the question, how do I define myself. In conventional reality in the usual ways, an entity with a story. But I don't believe that to be true.

When I wake up I think I will understand how to live in this relative reality whilst knowing that I am not a separate entity
What is it that wakes up? Nothing really but the illusion falls away, never to return I hope.

Thank you very much for helping me Alex. I very much appreciate it.

Jill

[jgordon5]

Hi Jill,

"What does the understanding?" The mind does...

Can you find this "mind" in your direct experience? Or is this only a conceptual entity? Is there anymore than simply a thought followed by more thought?

When you understand something a thought comes up "I understand!".

No, I cannot find a separate entity

But there is no entity there that understands, no "I/self" that would do that, right?

Is this any different with the rest of this experience?
When you sit down and just listen - there is sound - there is thought about the sound - "I hear a bird!"
Is there a listener that is separate from the sound? Is there a border between you and the sound? What is there?

I think it would be useful if I really look at your questions for a little while.... I'll reply further when I've done that.

OK, looking forward to receiving your reply.

Alex

Sorry Alex

I didn't see this post of yours before replying to the last one a few minutes ago.
I've got to go out for the day but I'll answer this later when I'm back.

Thanks very much.

Jill

[Alexw]

It's tricky to answer because then you're always talking in terms of separation.

Yes, is there another way of talking? Doesn't language (and thought) equal separation? If there is no word, no concept employed, is there any separation?
Can you experience separation besides thinking about it? Can you experience an I/self without thinking about it?
Where can this I/self be found?

If I dig down a bit, as for example in the experiments in Greg Goode's book Direct Path, then it is known that all separation is conceptual and for a short while freedom is known or almost known. But I seem to have difficulty in staying with that! I soon revert to being 'me'.

What do you want to be free from? From a conceptual thought? Who wants to be free? Can a thought be free from more thought?

How is it experienced when "freedom is almost known"? When you look at this experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching - what is there that would be free or not free? Can this classification be found in the experience itself or only as a thought about it? Can you please describe how it feels to be free (or the opposite) on a purely sensory level.

[jgordon5]

Yes, I see that - with no word or concept no separation. But how can this be lived? I've been with family all day and I don't know how to be with others and not use language. Default position seems to be belief in separation.

To be free on a purely sensory level is utter stillness it seems to 'me'.

I'll keep looking at what you've asked in your last post.

Many thanks.

[Alexw]

Living with the understanding/realisation doesn't mean that you won't speak a word or think a thought anymore - "you" couldn't decide that anyway, could you? You would have to be able to control thought... can you?

Anyway, implementing non-dual realisations in this conventional world is a useless undertaking - it will never work and only bring frustration. It is perfectly fine to simply know without any doubt that this is just a conceptual life, a divine comedy (and sometimes tragedy) and that its all perfectly fine as it is. There is no need to try to become one with everything as there is no you that could do that anyway. The concepts that you have are a good thing as well - otherwise you couldn't even cross a street without a car running you over...

To be free on a purely sensory level is utter stillness it seems to 'me'.

Why? Are you less free if there are birds singing or a freight train passing by?
Can you be free on a "sensory level" or is this always only a thought saying "I am free / not free!" ?

Looking forward to your answers.

Alex

[jgordon5]

Hi Alex

I'm still thinking about the first part of your post and the day has been busy so not much space. But I will try to answer it soon.

[quote Ae you less free if there are birds singing or a freight train passing by[/quote]

When I said that freedom seemed like utter stillness, I wasn't precise enough.... sorry. I meant that there seems utter stillness whatever is happening. Birds singing, traffic passing - all arising somehow in stillness.

Thank you so much for your pointers. Things are changing.

But although I've read how to use quotes, I don't seem to have got the hang of it! Or else it's different on Android. I'll read it again!

Warmest regards
Jill

[Alexw]

Hi Jill,

Ok, take your time.

Kind regards,
Alex

[Alexw]

Just letting you know that I will be travelling for the next 3 days and won't have any Internet connectivity.

Regards
Alex

[jgordon5]

Ok, thanks Alex. Hope you have a good trip.
All best wishes
Jill

[jgordon5]

Living with the understanding/realisation doesn't mean that you won't speak a word or think a thought anymore - "you" couldn't decide that anyway, could you? You would have to be able to control thought... can you?

I'm feeling confused, by my own fuzziness. I understand what you're saying and I'm awake a lot in the night digging into the concept of me. I have aha moments when I see I don't exist, huge moment of relief, then in no time at all it's as if I don the overcoat of Jill again almost without realising. Then I'm living in duality again and forgetting I ever knew. So I can only surmise that I am just not really 'seeing', or is it usual to fall in and out of understanding? Or if not usual does it happen to some people.

I'm feeling a huge pull towards finishing now, going through the gate, so I hope the intensity keeps up and it finally 'happens'.

I'm very grateful for your guidance. Thank you.

All best wishes
Jill

[Alexw]

Still here, so just a short one:

Then I'm living in duality again and forgetting I ever knew.

Is there an "I/me" that knows or forgets? What is it that tells you that you are living in duality again?
When you see "you don't exist" how is that known? What tells you that "you don't exist"?

is it usual to fall in and out of understanding

How is that experienced? What falls in and out? Is it any more than a thought saying "Ah, I have been gone and now I am back. Now I see again!"

Maybe what you are talking about is being aware or not being aware of the observer/witness of thought?
What is this observer? Is it a separate entity? Or is it again just a thought talking about previous thought(s)?

Take the next three days to look at these questions (and maybe the ones from the last posts)... see what you find...