gateless gate of clouds

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Kumarajiva
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gateless gate of clouds

Postby Kumarajiva » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:24 am

- intrigued by fellow practitioners finding it of use - and my own sense of opening further in exploration

- have been exploring spiritual paths for 30+ years, especially monastic contexts (Catholic, Buddhist). Have spent the past 30+ years on the Buddhist path

- a new approach, an opening, challenges, unknown

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby unplugged » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:23 pm

Hi - welcome to the forum. My name is Dyann and I will be happy to guide you if that is alright with you? If so, there are a few guidelines. Please review below and if you agree to the contract, then please answer the question after the guideline so that we may begin. Best, d

“There are a few guidelines to guide this dialogue, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

"What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?"

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Kumarajiva
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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby Kumarajiva » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:31 pm

Thanks, Dyann, for your post and the guidelines.

Liberation: spacious, free, playful, breadth of perspective but connected to right now.
How will it change me? Further expand those nascent qualities in me - a looser, lighter 'me'

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby unplugged » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:02 pm

a looser, lighter 'me'
Its helpful to drop any attachment to expectations and to put your full attention on your investigation in and to direct experience for our work together. The question I would ask prompted by a "lighter, looser me" is:

Who is this 'me' that would be looser and lighter?

What come up when it is read that there is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been a "you", nor is there or will ever be?

Please take your time and answer with complete honesty.

Thank you, Dyann

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Kumarajiva
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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby Kumarajiva » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:50 pm

Hi Dyann - apologies for the slow response, am nursing a post-appendicitis partner!

Answering with complete honesty - I was slightly surprised at a question about 'expectations' as there is an understanding of dropping attachment to expectations. But there is also a knowing (versus understanding) that there are expectations. So yes, airing them but not relying on them or being attached to them.

No 'me', no 'you', looser and lighter or otherwise, what comes up at the reading/feeling of this - perhaps this is a roundabout response but in reading through the Gateless Gatecrashers, one of the earlier dialogues (perhaps the first one) asked a question which resonated and continues to reverberate - 'what is behind the [fear]'? (I'm not sure if it was 'fear' but it seems that is what sticks at the moment - perhaps because that what comes up for me - that I have been feeling in this chest at awaking in night or sitting with the concept of 'no me')

It is the behind/underneath that resonates - and what comes up in that spaceless space is unending openness - as there is now as this form is writing.... a tension in the chest but behind that, an endless bright expanse...

but tension grows as the expanse is seen.

thank you

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby unplugged » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:08 pm

No 'me', no 'you', looser and lighter or otherwise
Okay. So it sounds like you did not find a "me" that would be lighter or looser. Good.

So can you find a separate self, a "me" or an "I" anywhere in your direct experience?

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby Kumarajiva » Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:53 pm

can you find a separate self, a "me" or an "I"
Hi Dyann

Finding, identifying, feeling, seeing - all there in terms of sensing energy, quite literally seeing physical pieces and effects of their actions -

but what seems to be the key point here is 'separate' (as well as direct)

or 'unique' - in the sense of 'owning an 'I''

rather than moment after moment unique in the sense of energy coming together and moving apart.

No, no separate 'self' in direct experience

Beyond all this, there is an increasing sense of 'unravelling'. Several nights ago, I awoke and was awake for several hours, the potential of feeling no self sinking it and then - a literal sensation of the physical body 'deflating' and floating away, paper thin. It reminded me of several of the dream/dance scenes in 'The Red Shoes' film, where either the dancer or partners turn into coloured films that float to the floor or newspapers.

The next morning (yesterday), a real sense of clarity and simplicity. Not about anything in particular but just a sense of that.

This morning, the unravelling takes a new character, feeling a bit unsteady, physically clumsy, vaguely wondering if there is no 'self', how is this physical/emotional/psychic form to be? Learning how to just be without the background hum of 'me'.

A memory of a worry/fear of being disconnected in letting go of separate self yet understanding this leads to more connection. Learning to let the intuitive knowing stand front and centre.

This seems somewhat incoherent. Thank you for reading this.

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby unplugged » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:32 pm

No, no separate 'self' in direct experience
Excellent. So, just to take that a little further...please explore each of these and answer the questions.

Is there a seer separate from the seen?
Is there a hearer that hears?
Is there a "self" that is the Doer or Controller?
Is there a "self" that chooses?

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby unplugged » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:13 pm

Hi there - just checking back in with you. How is it going?

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Kumarajiva
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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby Kumarajiva » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:31 pm

Hi Dyann
Thanks for checking back. My partner had to go back to hospital (A&E) yesterday but fortunately is home again.

Within all this, the questions asked have been present.

To the first two, the Bahiya Sutta quote comes up: 'In the seen, only the seen, in the heard, only the heard'. And later: 'When there is no you in connection with that [the seeing, hearing, sensing, cognising], there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.'

And in reflecting on this, having a sense that yes, this is so. The seer only exists in relation to what is being seen, the hearer in relation to what is being heard - there is no separation as the seer is not a seer without the seeing etc. How wonderful and freeing! And really quite straighforward.

But slightly less straightforward here for this knowing are the second two questions.

There is only a doer within the doing but no separate, unique self - in the same way that the seer is not separate from seeing.

'Controller' seems irrelevant as there is no 'real' control except possibly in the sense of...

choosing.

There is a choosing (eg skilful or unskilful) which exists with a chooser - but again no separate self.

The fluidity of all of this is quite remarkable and sometimes stunning - in the sense of feeling stunned.

Thank you.

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby unplugged » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:52 pm

Excellent. Let's keep going.

Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?
Can YOU think and choice a thought?

Does the body experience sensations and thought?
or
Is the "body" just another thought label or sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby unplugged » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:54 pm

Can YOU think and choice a thought?
Sorry - correction....can YOU think and choose a thought?

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Kumarajiva
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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby Kumarajiva » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:18 pm

Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?
As with seeing and hearing, there is thinking but not an 'I' who thinks. There is a being who observes them and can direct them, even choosing to an extent. For example, when falling asleep, the mind can go towards lists of things to do. A recognition of the unnecessary nature of this is followed by the 'choice' to let thoughts of these questions bubble up. So it seems like a guiding, underpinned by an awareness of what is helpful or skilful or not, rather than control. But there is no 'me' who thinks the thoughts. There is thinking observed and thinking gently guided. Wow! Knowing of this is such a relief, and so eye/heart-opening!
Does the body experience sensations and thought?
or
Is the "body" just another thought label or sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
There is experiencing through the channel labelled 'body'. Having spent a number of years 'meditating with the body' (including yoga), this seems more and more clear. The awareness of sensations has broadened, deepened, become more subtle but the vessel, though of course changing with time and ageing and injury, has not seemingly changed to the degree/to reflect awareness . Hence 'body' is only a channel labelled, albeit precious. How brilliantly this has brought freedom from identification with pain or discomfort or, in this case, psoriasis.

So all is merely part of a flow, the sense of '***ing', to which is regularly attached labels like 'I', 'body' etc. Still bouncing in and out of this. At once so obvious, at other times unsettling but more in a way that is habitual than actual. Phew!

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby unplugged » Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:24 pm

There is a being who observes them and can direct them, even choosing to an extent.
I understand that this is subtle. Lets make sure there is clarity here, k?

Is there A being? or just being?

Can just being, direct and choose anything? Or is it all just happening?

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Re: gateless gate of clouds

Postby Kumarajiva » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:19 am

Thank you for bringing the exploration back down to earth. It was feeling wordy.

Have been coursing the somewhat bumpy road of just being, not A being. The just being, yes. that's all there is. And starting to get a sense that just being can guide or direct. If the just being is allowed to be present, prominent, its natural positive flow can guide and direct.

But having studied and practised Buddhism for such a long time, there is a question of how much some of the ideas from this (especially Buddha-nature, tathagatagarbha), are overlaying experience. Yet feel these concepts are merely labels for what is. Which of course is what the Buddha taught.

Looking forward to your questions.


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