Striving to dissapear

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Guiloose
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Striving to dissapear

Postby Guiloose » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:41 pm

Hello,

I am not native english (far from it). I have been reading threads of LU for about 2 years and find the principle really fascinating.

I have become a seeker 4 years ago. To understand why we are here has always been something that mattered for me but I first wanted to experiment life and make my own opinion. Now it is done. Not very successfully, I must say.

Years after years, surely because I was more and more addict to ego and disappointed by the result, I have become socially anxious. This is something that worsen years after years.

It has reinforced the seeking. I also take it for an opportunity to look at things as they are and to challenge the ego question. I daily meditate , try to inquire and look for the I.

I never experienced unicity state or special spiritual situations.

I just am really motivated to discover the true nature of things and of ‘me’.

Gui

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Xain
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Xain » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:18 pm

Hi Gui - Welcome to the Forum.
I am not native english (far from it).
Ok, I understand. If I mention anything difficult, please let me know and I will try to explain.
I have become socially anxious. This is something that worsen years after years.
Social anxiety is directly linked to 'I' - To the belief that what you are is a separate individual person, separate and different from everything and everyone around you.
I daily meditate , try to inquire and look for the I.
Good. What we do here at LU is exactly the same as your own inquiry but 'guided' to focus on specific and important areas.
I never experienced unicity state or special spiritual situations.
It is important to understand that LU and my guidance are not to achieve a 'special state' or 'experience unicity' or to achieve any other special state or experience at all.
My guidance will be for one thing only and that is a realisation. The realisation would be that this 'I' that you believe you are is only a creation of thought. Is it just an idea. A self-referencing belief.
It will be realised that there is no separate self 'I' here now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be.

How does that sound to you?
Do you have any expectations or worries about this process?

Xain ♥

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Guiloose
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Guiloose » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:18 am

Thanks for the answer and your guidance’s proposal that I am glad to accept, Xain.
Social anxiety is directly linked to 'I' - To the belief that what you are is a separate individual person, separate and different from everything and everyone around you

That is why I am beginning to consider the social anxiety as a motivation source and a real opportunity to look.
How does that sound to you?
Do you have any expectations or worries about this process?
It sounds great.

My expectations:

The word that pops up is freedom. I would like to be free from the idea of me and from the ideas I have of others. Free to act in line with what is.

For the moment, I really have the feeling to swim against the stream and it takes all my energy and more indeed.

Serenity would also be an expectation but it goes along with freedom.

My worries:

The only worry I have is to fail to see the absence of me. Since a few weeks, my other motivation sources (Work, family, leisure, social activity) have slowly faded away. I do not believe to fear to lose something. But this is a feeling, I cannot be positive about that.

“I” do it just because “I” feel there is no other choice.

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Xain
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Xain » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:34 am

I would like to be free from the idea of me and from the ideas I have of others. Free to act in line with what is.
Just notice the paradox here . . . an 'I' that can be free from the idea of 'I'.
The only worry I have is to fail to see the absence of me.
An 'I' that can't see that 'I' isn't really there . . .
It's Ok - I just point out these paradoxes for your interest.

To address your point anyway about 'failing to realise something' - Well, that could be lining yourself up for a fall before you've even tried. Don't worry. I consider this guidance more like a chat . . . perhaps something will become clear along the way.

As mentioned, my guidance is for the realisation that every case of 'I' is solely dependant on thought.
Without thought . . . an 'I' cannot be found!

Feel free to use normal language and writing - No need to use quotes or brackets unless you really think it is necessary.
Have a look at these guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

It is useful to use the 'Quote' button as I have to quote my replies - It will make the conversation easier.
A guide for it's use can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Let me know if you have anything else you would like to mention or questions you may have, and we can begin if you would like.

Xain ♥

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Guiloose
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Guiloose » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:13 pm

No problems with the paradox use. It can be stunning.

1- Post at least once a day => for sure
2- Be honest => essential
3- OK.
4- Done. “Spiritual tourists will be taken to the airlock and launched into deep space”: I take the risk.

I am ready.

Gui

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Xain
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Xain » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:59 pm

Ok, let's get the ball rolling.

If we consider the word 'I' (although I will say 'you' of course, to point back) which is a word that refers to a separate self . . . what does the word 'I' point to? What does 'I' do? What is it responsible for?

No fancy spiritual talk or beliefs are needed here. Just really basic stuff.
This should be kept as simple as possible. Speak from honestly held beliefs.

Is there a separate 'you' here right now? Do you believe there is?
One who is socially anxious - One who meditates daily. A belief of a real separate existing person.

Is there a 'you' looking at a screen right now - reading words off it?
Do 'you' feel the pressure of a chair or bed underneath your body?
Is there a 'you' considering these questions . . . thinking what they mean . . . that will, in a few moments decide what to write in reply.
You will choose (from your own free-will) what to say.
It will be 'you' typing it in on a keyboard or other device using your hands.

You can reject these statements if you wish to.
Feel free to write anything else that is believed regarding 'I', this separate self that you believe you are.

Xain ♥

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Guiloose
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Guiloose » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:43 pm

If we consider the word 'I' (although I will say 'you' of course, to point back) which is a word that refers to a separate self . . . what does the word 'I' point to? What does 'I' do? What is it responsible for?
The word I refers to the one thinking and acting. The feeling I have is that it is composed of a mixed of the one who sees, the one who feels and the one who thinks at the same time.
Is there a separate 'you' here right now? Do you believe there is?
One who is socially anxious - One who meditates daily. A belief of a real separate existing person.
Yes at the moment I have the feeling there is one separate “Me”. At least, the one who is sometimes afraid of others, the one who wants to be taken into account, who wants to be appreciated… The one who depends on the circumstances.
Is there a 'you' looking at a screen right now - reading words off it?
Do 'you' feel the pressure of a chair or bed underneath your body?
In direct experience, I cannot find him. However the belief remains.
Do 'you' feel the pressure of a chair or bed underneath your body?
No. There is only a global sensation.
Is there a 'you' considering these questions . . . thinking what they mean . . . that will, in a few moments decide what to write in reply.
You will choose (from your own free-will) what to say.
Answers come on their own. There is looking and then emergence of thoughts. I know that but it is not obvious.

Gui

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Xain
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Xain » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:52 pm

I asked about 'seeing' and 'feeling' - You said:
In direct experience, I cannot find him. However the belief remains.
Ok, good. I take it that you have been looking into this already.
By 'Direct Experience', we mean the sense itself (seeing, hearing, smell, taste and touch).
So (for example with 'seeing') we ask, can what we are looking for be found in the experience of seeing itself, or is what we are looking for merely an idea / a thought about what might be responsible for it.
Does this make sense for you? Do you understand?

Let me do two exercises - Please do them, and tell me exactly what you find and what (if anything) is clear for you.

Right now, a screen is being seen.
Words are being read off the screen.

Now . . . in the experience of seeing itself, can an 'I' be found that is doing it.
Can whatever is responsible for (what is performing the action of) 'seeing' be known, found or located in the experience of seeing?

Also . . . in the experience of reading itself, can an 'I' be found that is doing it.
Can whatever is responsible for (what is performing the action of) 'reading' be known, found or located in the experience of reading?

Can two 'things' be found in these experiences?
1) A screen that is being seen or read
2) An 'I' that is doing the seeing and reading?

So . . . can an 'I' be found in the experience of doing these things?
Or would you say that 'I' was more of an idea about what might be responsible for these things? An assumption.
A thought appearing saying 'that's what did it'?

Xain ♥

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Guiloose
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Guiloose » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:21 pm

At first, of course, one thing can easily be found : a screen being read.

There is also just seeing (at first unforunately).
But immediatly, by reflection would i say or a kind of game of mirrors, the feeling of I appears and takes the responsibility of all.

I suppose it works the same way in social anxiety : a game of mirrors between what is seen and what is believed (reflection again reflection), a more powerfull hypnose.

However, the activity (seeing, reading) is there first. It is felt. Very quickly, the habits to refer to the thoughts come back. identification is automatically needed/required.

Gui

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Xain
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Xain » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:22 pm

At first, of course, one thing can easily be found : a screen being read.
There is also just seeing (at first unforunately).
Ok, there is a screen being seen. And a screen being read.
Good.
But immediatly, by reflection would i say or a kind of game of mirrors, the feeling of I appears and takes the responsibility of all.
Ok - You are suggesting that in the experience of 'seeing' there are two things.
1) The screen being seen.
2) A feeling of 'I' doing the seeing.
Is this what is happening?

Please, for the moment, stick ONLY to what can found in the experience.
Are you finding two things?
There is a screen being read - Can you find what is doing the reading in the experience itself?
However, the activity (seeing, reading) is there first. It is felt.
Sorry - I don't understand what you mean.
How is 'seeing felt'?

We are only examining 'seeing' at the moment - Please try to answer only from what can be found in the experience of seeing itself.
Very quickly, the habits to refer to the thoughts come back. identification is automatically needed/required.
I understand what you mean - There is identification - We will cover this later. We will cover thoughts later also.
For the moment, stick solely to 'seeing' and 'reading'.

Xain ♥

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Guiloose
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Guiloose » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:13 am

Ok - You are suggesting that in the experience of 'seeing' there are two things.
1) The screen being seen.
2) A feeling of 'I' doing the seeing.
Is this what is happening?
Yes exact
There is a screen being read - Can you find what is doing the reading in the experience itself?
No I can't.
Sorry - I don't understand what you mean.
How is 'seeing felt'?
I mean I can “see” that there is only seeing. When I see that there is a loosening in my body.

Gui

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Xain
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Xain » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:18 am

Ok - You are suggesting that in the experience of 'seeing' there are two things.
1) The screen being seen.
2) A feeling of 'I' doing the seeing.
Is this what is happening?
Yes exact
There is a screen being read - Can you find what is doing the reading in the experience itself?
No I can't.
I don't understand.
We are trying to find something that is doing the seeing.

You say there is a 'feeling' that is doing the seeing.
Can feelings see? How?

Describe the feeling that you have found that is doing the seeing - Describe it as it appears in the experience.
Also, describe how you know that that the feeling is doing the seeing.

Is the feeling that you found doing the seeing, doing anything else? Is the feeling doing hearing also?

Xain ♥

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Guiloose
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Guiloose » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:04 pm

You are right, Xain. You insist when it is not clear.

So, I have done it again in the park near where I work. In direct experience, There is only seeing that can be experienced.

No feeling is doing the seeing.
This feeling comes under the form of a thought that is saying "I am seing".

Hoping having been clear enough.

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Xain
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Xain » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:46 pm

You are right, Xain. You insist when it is not clear.
Hoping having been clear enough.
It has - And thank you.
Please also - You insist if I say something you do not understand.

It may take a little time for us both to understand where we are 'coming from' / what we both mean.
In this guidance, it is important to be specific and clear.

Ok, that was seeing.

Now let us move to 'feeling' (this is why I was so insistent about it previously).
Do this:

Place a hand on a flat surface like a table or a desk.
Close your eyes.
Now focus your attention on (what we normally refer to as) 'hand on desk'.

Focus on that feeling and inquire:
In the experience itself, how many things are there?
Are there two things to be found
1) A desk being felt
2) A hand doing the feeling
Or is there just a 'feeling sensation'?

In the experience, can what is doing the feeling be found or discovered?
For example, is there an 'I' or a 'body/hand' that is actively doing/performing a function called feeling?
What can be found from the experience of 'feeling' itself?

Xain ♥

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Guiloose
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Re: Striving to dissapear

Postby Guiloose » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:10 pm

There is no hand or table, just a feeling sensation.

Apart from the sensation nothing else can be found : no actor doing the feeling, no I, no body.

Gui


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