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karenwill
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Hello

Postby karenwill » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:37 pm

I found this site through a friend. When I read through the site I was excited to see a place where there is ongoing support for awakening. My background has been years of study and practice. On a daily basis I meditate two to three times a day. My expectations are open and I hope to read about other people's experiences and gain knowledge along the path.

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Andrei
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Re: Hello

Postby Andrei » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:26 am

Hi Karen

I would be happy to guide you on your journey.

But before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

6. Please use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
7. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
-----

What do you know about Liberation Unleashed? What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?

PS: during our conversation, while waiting for my answers to your posts, feel free to browse through the LU site, read the articles, or read through the other threads on this forum or the Gateless gatecrashers book which was quite helpful in my case.

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karenwill
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Re: Hello

Postby karenwill » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:41 pm

HI Andrei,
Yes, I agree to all the stated items.

I am super excited about all of this. I want to watch the video and then I will respond later today to your questions. I am reading the book that was a download from this site and I also ordered the other book.

Thanks for being my guide!

Karen

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karenwill
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Re: Hello

Postby karenwill » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:54 pm

Hi Andrei,

What do you know about Liberation Unleashed?
I know the things that are on the website and on the videos. As soon as I started reading the information I knew that it was something I was ready for. It sounds like a guide to more freedom from the mind and all the structures of the perceived self.


What are your expectations for liberation?
I am not sure what my expectations are, only to see more of the Truth.

How will this feel?
At this point I have no idea, however I imagine there will be peace and a greater sense of freedom.

How will this change you?
Again, I have no idea for sure. I am open to the experience as it unfolds.

Thanks,
Karen

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Andrei
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Re: Hello

Postby Andrei » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:33 pm

At this point I have no idea, however I imagine there will be peace and a greater sense of freedom.
Maybe. Maybe not. I guess it`s different for each of us. Some have it easier, for others it`s like opening the Pandora box to face all the crap they gathered throughout the years. Some experience love and whatnot. I for instance experienced some mild forms of anger directed towards all the so-called spiritual teachers who claim they are enlightened and all the years wasted with reading their books which promise eternal universal love and winning the lottery lol. Of course I knew everything happens when it happens independent of an "I" but still that was my post-gate experience.
Anyway that was just an example so you know that everything is possible.

Moving on:
When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?

When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it?

Is there an “I” in direct experience?


During our convo, if you ever feel we move too fast or too slow let me know. If there is anything unclear about my questions or the terms we use again please let me know.

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karenwill
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Re: Hello

Postby karenwill » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:57 am

When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?
When I read this, it feels like a pin poking a hole in a balloon. I can hear the words and understand the concept, however I am not sure it really goes all the way in. I get there is no you as a concept. I am not sure the reality of it is being embodied.

[When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it?
Up until this point it has meant the entity known as Karen (which is my name). It is the personal self that I know to be my existence.

Is there an I in direct experience?
No, there is only the experience.

I will let you know if I need more time or if things feel like they are going to fast or too slow. Right now the flow is fine and I understand everything-thanks for checking!

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Andrei
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Re: Hello

Postby Andrei » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:06 am

I get there is no you as a concept. I am not sure the reality of it is being embodied.
Thats the whole thing with this "liberation" process. At one point the rational reasoning will have to be discarded and "seeing" will start to take place. There will be no "you" not because you logically reached that conclusion but because you started to feel it without the use of your thinking process. But we`ll get there.
Is there an I in direct experience?
No, there is only the experience
Good. Please use this in every situation, every exercise we do, and maybe in real life as well, from now on. Just go back to the direct experience and see what is really going on.
It is the personal self that I know to be my existence.
Tell me more about this "personal self". When does it start? What is it made of?

Furthermore:
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

Is there a watcher separate from the seen?

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karenwill
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Re: Hello

Postby karenwill » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:39 pm

give me some time to explore these ideas today-will respond later

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karenwill
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Re: Hello

Postby karenwill » Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:58 pm

Tell me more about this "personal self". When does it start? What is it made of?

I notice the personal self starts when I am engaged with the chatter of the mind. I notice even now as I say the "I" that engages the mind-where does that "I" originate? I am not sure. It does not seem like the personal self is made up of anything, however there is an identification with it. It is almost as if it is all I have known.

Furthermore:
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?

I have been playing around with this. It seems my mind is trained to believe that I am experiencing an experience. If there is just experience than there is no personal self or "I".

Is there a watcher separate from the seen?

It seems like they are separate, however how can that be? Where would the separation exist? I feel like I can understand these concepts, but then I forget them and then go about my day.

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Andrei
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Re: Hello

Postby Andrei » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:49 pm

I notice the personal self starts when I am engaged with the chatter of the mind. I notice even now as I say the "I" that engages the mind
So the mind chats to itself and at one point the I-thought comes and assume identity: "I`m doing all this thinking. It`s me really!" :D
Can you now see the I-thought as just another thought?
where does that "I" originate? I am not sure.
In the end you won`t have to really. It doesnt matter where it comes from as long as you see it has nothing to do with you. Its just another thought. A big ass thought, but still a thought.
It does not seem like the personal self is made up of anything, however there is an identification with it. It is almost as if it is all I have known.
When the I-thought comes and tries to assume identity, knowing now that it`s just a thought, is identification still happening?
I don`t mean the first impulse, because that is just what we`ve been used to do for all our lives, but when you step back and s e e it for what it really is.
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
It seems my mind is trained to believe that I am experiencing an experience. If there is just experience than there is no personal self or "I".
Well what is it? Is it just experience happening and the I-thought (or the mind, other thoughts, etc) comes afterwards and hijacks it calling its own? Or is the I-thought creating the experience?
Is there a watcher separate from the seen?
It seems like they are separate, however how can that be? Where would the separation exist? I feel like I can understand these concepts, but then I forget them and then go about my day.
Use direct experience. Is there a separation?
Leave aside concepts and thoughts. They are not your friends here. Also there is nothing to understand or to remember. That is all mind.

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karenwill
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Re: Hello

Postby karenwill » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:54 pm

I am not able to find the separation or the place where the watching ends and the seen begins, so no there is no separation going on with the watcher and the seen.

I do noticed that the "I thought" is coming in and hijacking things and calling it's own.

I have to add that I know that I am able to understand these concepts and have the experience of them. A lot of this stuff is not necessarily new to me, however this is more of a practice rather than reading it in a book. I think the fear is that I will only be able to relate to these concepts from the place of the mind and will not be able to go beyond that......

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Andrei
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Re: Hello

Postby Andrei » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:35 pm

I am not able to find the separation or the place where the watching ends and the seen begins, so no there is no separation going on with the watcher and the seen.

I do noticed that the "I thought" is coming in and hijacking things and calling it's own.
Good.

I think the fear is that I will only be able to relate to these concepts from the place of the mind and will not be able to go beyond that...
But you already went beyond that when you use direct experience, when you saw there is no separation between objects, or when you see the "I" being just another thought.
It`s the mind that it`s afraid, that wants to keep it`s hand on the tiller, afraid of losing control. The more you use direct experience the more loose its grip will be. Until one moment when you realize there is nothing to be worried about, that the mind is just another bodily function, like sensations or like breathing, just doing the things it was designed for.

-----
Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

Is there a controller that controls walking or is there just walking happening?

-----
Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.
-----

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karenwill
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Re: Hello

Postby karenwill » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:57 pm

I spent sometime contemplating these questions and ideas. I feel that I am able to think about these things more and more through out my day. What I noticed is that most of the time things are happening on their own. Sometimes I make a conscious choice and it happens through thinking, most of the time things are just happening. Choosing seems to happen on its own most of the time unless I am caught up in the thoughts of the mind. Walking just happens, breathing just happens.

When I woke up this morning I was thinking-what is the point in all of this (this meaning things that I am doing) if there is no self. All the agendas, ideas, expectations, etc.-what is the point? I wonder if there is no separate self, who and what are all the beings on the planet? I am one and I see others.

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Andrei
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Re: Hello

Postby Andrei » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:29 pm

Sometimes I make a conscious choice and it happens through thinking, most of the time things are just happening.
I`m not sure what are you talking about. Can you give me an example of such a "conscious choice" and describe it to me? And I want you to use direct experience. I notice I keep asking you to use direct experience and instead you keep sharing your thoughts.

Choosing seems to happen on its own most of the time unless I am caught up in the thoughts of the mind.
And then what? You choose? What exactly are "you" choosing? And who is the "I" that chooses?

Walking just happens, breathing just happens.
Indeed. But why is it that you can so easily see that breathing/walking happen independent of a manager but you dont apply it to thoughts and concepts as well. Think about it. Or is it the fact that we were all programmed to see breathing/walking as automatic functions of the brain (managed from the subconscious mind, or whatever other explanation bullshit spirituality could come with just to make us not think about it), and we were fed a story about the ego/I/ thoughts being so much better, more complex, divine? lol
Aren`t they all functions of the body? So walking just happens. Breathing just happens. What about the thoughts, whether conscious or unconscious?


What about identification with thoughts? How do you know if identification is not just another function of the body/mind that simply HAPPENS?

All the agendas, ideas, expectations, etc.-what is the point?
Good thing you brought that about. So what is the point? Is there a point and who establishes what the point is?

I wonder if there is no separate self, who and what are all the beings on the planet? I am one and I see others.
You are a being? What exactly is a being? Describe me a being and what makes it different from other beings.

Also you told me before that there is no separation:
I am not able to find the separation or the place where the watching ends and the seen begins, so no there is no separation going on with the watcher and the seen.

Now you`re telling me that there is separation? Which one is it? And where exactly did you use direct experience and where did you use logical reasoning (or beliefs, or whatnot)? How do you make the difference?


From now on please use the quote function and answer each question/ do each exercise separately. You tend to mix them all up and give me a conclusion which doesn`t help me in figuring what the matter is. My purpose here, if you can call it that, is to make you see through all the concepts, beliefs, opinions and whatnot. Jed McKenna had a very good point when calling the process self-digestion. (I dont much like the dude but he nailed it to the head here). So for example you start from point A:
"I make conscious choices" and then start de-constructing it. -->
B. "Who is I? I is an idea, a concept" -->
C. "Whats a concept? A thought" -->
D. "what are thoughts? Just things popping in and out of my head without a manager" -->
E. "so who exactly makes conscious choices? Erm... nobody!"
And so on and so fort.

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karenwill
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Re: Hello

Postby karenwill » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:44 pm

I`m not sure what are you talking about. Can you give me an example of such a "conscious choice" and describe it to me? And I want you to use direct experience. I notice I keep asking you to use direct experience and instead you keep sharing your thoughts.
For example, I was sitting wondering, did I want to go to the barn (I have horses) and bring the horses some carrots and turn the fans off, or wait. I decided to go and do those things. Other times, for example I was doing some things in the yard and the actions where just happening. I was trimming the shrubs, would clean up, stop and take a drink of water. I was not doing any of this from choosing, it was all just happening. Is this what you mean by direct experience?
And then what? You choose? What exactly are "you" choosing? And who is the "I" that chooses?
The "I" or "you" is the organism known as Karen, this body, this being.
Aren`t they all functions of the body? So walking just happens. Breathing just happens. What about the thoughts, whether conscious or unconscious?
I have the awareness and prior knowledge that thoughts just happen. I agree. I also agree that we have been programmed to believe the thoughts, ego, etc are more important than the breathing or heart beating. I know the thoughts arise and this is the function of the mind. Thoughts happen.

What about identification with thoughts? How do you know if identification is not just another function of the body/mind that simply HAPPENS?

Good point-I don't know if it is just happening-now that you point it out-maybe it is jut happening as well....

So what is the point? Is there a point and who establishes what the point is?
There is no point and I believe it is the mind tangling things up, the mind trying to be important and creating some kind of point.

You are a being? What exactly is a being? Describe me a being and what makes it different from other beings.

Also you told me before that there is no separation:
I am not able to find the separation or the place where the watching ends and the seen begins, so no there is no separation going on with the watcher and the seen.

Now you`re telling me that there is separation? Which one is it? And where exactly did you use direct experience and where did you use logical reasoning (or beliefs, or whatnot)? How do you make the difference?

[/quote]
A being-so far as I have known it is a body with an identity. I being-ness is unique to me be it through experiences or the way I exist in the world. I do feel separation at times. Other times, when I am in meditation I am not identified with my body or the mind and I feel the vastness of Oneness. I am not sure how to bring the experiences of no separation fully into my life. I get caught up (still) in the mind chatter or drama of the mind and other times am able to be in the vastness of no separation.

My apologies for not responding directly to quotes and mixing things up. I have not been able to figure out this site and how to respond. It seems I figure something out and then try and do it again and it does not work. I keep trying to figure out how to copy and paste or transfer your quotes and it gets messed up. Then I loose what I have written, etc. I will keep working towards using this format and hopefully it will get easier as I learn the tools on this site. Even this last part of this response-for some reason I am not able to separate out your quotes, it keeps copying large parts of your response even though I only highlight one area to quote. I keep deleting and re-trying to just include one part, but it wont let me do it. It ends of taking me an hour to get one response in-so that is why on the last one I just wrote a paragraph. Could I ask that you only respond with a couple of thing so that I can respond to everything without having to spend so much time trying to figure out how to transfer your quotes, etc.? Thanks!


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