Requesting an OM Triratna guide

[Dianne]

Hello I am OM in Triratna looking for an OM to guide me.
Seeing through the illusion of self. I know it is an illusion intellectually and need help to see this experientially.

Some of my friends have done LU and have found it very effective

Kusalamani

[Dava]

Hi there Kusalamani,

I'm an OM and would be happy to guide you.

If you haven't done so already, could you check out the disclaimer;
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also, please check through my guidelines for our dialogue and make sure you are happy to agree to them.

1. You agree to post regularly (ideally once a day).
2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

I am living in the UK, so operating on GMT.

If you're up for it, let me know and we'll get things rolling.

Dava

[Dianne]

Dear Dava thank you for your quick response. I have read your guidelines and am happy with and agree to them. I'm looking forward to starting.
Kusalamani

[Dava]

Dear Dava thank you for your quick response. I have read your guidelines and am happy with and agree to them. I'm looking forward to starting.
Kusalamani

Wonderful!

A couple of extra points.

It will help our dialogue to run along smoothly if you can get to grips with using the quote function when replying to specific parts of my questions / pointers. You can see I have done this above, and below is a link with details of how to make use of it.

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Also, I find it useful to check the "subscribe topic" box at the bottom of the thread, which means that an e-mail notification is sent when a new post is made.


So, tell me a little bit more about why you are here.

What are your primary motivations?

What are you expecting?


Best wishes,
Dava

[Dianne]

Hi Dava

I think I have now worked out how to use the quote function - so when you receive this reply let me know if it is what is required.

So, tell me a little bit more about why you are here.
Seeing through the illusion of "self is something that has interested me for a long time - at times when I am on retreat, solitary or have a concentrated meditation, I get a glimpse and sense of what this might be like, but what I find is that I usually slip back into "selfing" and I am tired of it! I live with two OM's who have "gone through the gate" and I feel encouraged that this is possible - they are also very supportive of my doing this.

What are your primary motivations?
I want to be an effective Dharma teacher. To have "really" experienced and have a sustained and permanent sense of the "illusion of "self" will hopefully enhance all of my relationships.
I want to be free in heart/mind and not bound by the ego and the need to stain something that I low intellectually doesn't exist, but I keep acting as though it does

What are you expecting?
To break the first fetter, so that I an then work on breaking the others. Also all of the above.

Warm wishes
Kusalamani

[Dava]

Hi Kusalamani,

Thanks for outlining your motivations and expectations.

Whether any of them are close to the mark, with others way off will be revealed in the fullness of time.
I see no reason to affirm or discount at this juncture.

What I will say is that our dialogue from this point on is concerned with Direct Experience, by which I mean observable perceptions and thoughts, without any recourse to narrative, stories or speculation.

Take your expectations for example, where do they arise in Direct Experience?
What are they made of?

Best wishes,
Dave

[Dava]

(by the way, you got the quote function, but there's no need to highlight your portion of the dialogue, just the sections of my portion which you wish to refer to)

:-)

[Dianne]

Hi Dave

[quote]Take your expectations for example, where do they arise in Direct Experience?
What are they made of?

Good question which is making me very thoughtful and frustrated. If we are only concerned with Direct Experience by which you mean observable perceptions and thoughts without recourse to narratives, stories, speculations - probably none of my expectations or motives, that I put forward, are direct experience. Most of them, or maybe even all of them are not what is being experienced now but a wish or a story about what I want to be happening in the future which of course are not in my direct experience
I did wonder if my observable perceptions of my friends experience with Direct Pointing was and is Direct Experience, as I can see it and have a direct sensory experience of it? But, as I write this, I am having a sense that I have no idea what Direct Experience is?

Warm wishes
Kusalamani

[Dava]

If we are only concerned with Direct Experience by which you mean observable perceptions and thoughts without recourse to narratives, stories, speculations - probably none of my expectations or motives, that I put forward, are direct experience.

Bingo!
There is a Direct Experience of thoughts (which we could call mind sensations) without needing to buy in to the perceived contents.

Direct Experience is simply the primary experience of what arises via the six senses, before any mediation or interpretation occurs. We can consider mediation, interpretation, commentary etc to be a secondary experience, within the realm of which the trouble starts (and as a result of which, knowingly or otherwise, you have turned up here, knowing that somehow, you have been subjecting yourself to a faulty interpretation).

So what comes up for you when you read that the interpretation of a separate self is utterly false, that there is no "you", that there never has been and never will be?

[Dianne]

So what comes up for you when you read that the interpretation of a separate self is utterly false, that there is no "you", that there never has been and never will be?

What comes up for me when I read this is fear, thought "yes it is true", more fear, thought "who am I then", noticing a commentary starting "maybe I can work this out" - Maybe I will leave it here for now.

Kusalamani

[Dava]

What comes up for me when I read this is fear, thought "yes it is true", more fear, thought "who am I then", noticing a commentary starting "maybe I can work this out"

As well as the thought; "who am I?"
is there anything else observable through Direct Experience which contributes towards that which you label "fear"?

When you really look, what is the fear made of?

[Dianne]

When you really look, what is the fear made of?

Slight contraction in the solar plexus. Fear is a thought. Heart beating faster, Waves of energy through the body. Prickling of tears behind the eyelids. Tightening in the jaw. I want to get into a story about it being an underlying familiar feeling and I know this is not direct experience.

Maybe it is only a process of physical sensations and various thoughts?

Kusalamani

[Dava]

Maybe it is only a process of physical sensations and various thoughts?

You tell me.

When you look to Direct Experience, can you find an objective "entity" called fear?

Best wishes,

Dave

[Dianne]

Hi Dava

[quote]When you look to Direct Experience, can you find an objective "entity" called fear?

NO!!

I do sense there is a process of physical sensations and various thoughts which I have named as "fear" but as there is no objective entity called fear - it must be just a whole lot of (I'm finding it hard to find the language) "phenomena" arising and ceasing.

I want to ask a question if there is no "fear" what is there? - but you probably won't tell me.

Kusalamani

[Dava]

I want to ask a question if there is no "fear" what is there? - but you probably won't tell me.

I don't need to tell you, you just told me:

there is a process of physical sensations and various thoughts which I have named as "fear"

Let's have a look at these physical sensations.

Sitting where you are right now, just range over your physical experience as you find it.
Without referring to anything other than felt sensations, I want you to look for a "feeler" or "sensor" that is having a physical experience.

What do you find?