Taking awakening to the next level

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Livininbliss
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Livininbliss » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:31 pm

My attraction to non duality teachings

I have seeked in the spiritual traditions and the non spiritual schools of thought

I expect to have a shift take place

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:25 pm

Hi Livin
Im Sarah and Id be happy to speak with you.
Is Livin what you want me to call you - or would you prefer something else?
Have you looked around the site - do you know what we do here?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
Livininbliss
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Livininbliss » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:57 pm

Hi Sarah,
Thank you for responding to my post. I have been around the site. I understand what you do here, and I am ready to get started.
I am in the Mountain/Pacific time zone of the US, Arizona.
I began a profound awakening experience about 8 months ago. It was while reading and exploring new spiritual ideas, dismissing old fundamental Christian beliefs, doing accupuncture, reiki healing, and practicing EMDR therapy. All this was on the heals of a painful divorce which cracked th ego (thankfully).
I experienced awakening and a falling away of the self, deep bliss, and satori experiences while searching many spiritual teachings like: Eckhart Tolle, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung and others. This exploring various teachings during the intense stage of awakening continued, motivated by wanting to understand and nurture the process, ultimately leading to discovering non-duality teachings about 4 months ago.
I have lately began to more intensely explore and read non-duality authors and have made the intellectual connection and understanding of no-self. I have also had some experiencial connection with no self shortly after discovering non-duality teachings, but have "held back" (whatever that means) because the experience was an extremely intense brief realization of the reasons for searching, which included much laughter, accompanied by stream entry type awareness.
I was settling into awakening during that experience and becoming more aware of returning thought processes. I did what seemed like pulling back from the process to allow more of a settling to occur in my shift so that normal work functioning and life adjustment could become well integrated.
Now I'm back into reading more non-duality, like Gateless Gate Crashers, and listening to talks and interviews with non-duality teachers. So I'm sort of stepping back into the mainstream again, and noticing some shifting again.
I'm no expert at awakening but do recognise that my experience has been profound and enormously life changing.
It's kind of like, awakening happened with the experience of no-self, then the searching for understanding of the experience to help nurture it happened, then a settling and integration period with more access to knowledge about it and resources, then an adjustment period of waiting to see if there was anymore falling away of externals, then or now a readying to move further along the "journey" and get help from a guide to sort of clarify where I am in my conscious understanding and development of "no-self". So, you could say, I understand the idea of "no-self" have experienced it first hand through awakening, I'm blessed to have a pervasive level of peacefulness, but the non-dual teachings came after the fact. So now I think I'm ready to embrace the non-dual teachings in the deepest sense.
I hope that makes sense because that is my best explanation for my experience.
I hope that you will offer your guidance, and I humbly present myself to you for assistance.

Thank you.
You can call me Mark

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:06 am

Hey Mark!
I have lately began to more intensely explore and read non-duality authors and have made the intellectual connection and understanding of no-self.

Are you looking for a connection between what you read and to what is being experienced with you?
Are you still seeking? Or is this about understanding?
I have also had some experiencial connection with no self shortly after discovering non-duality teachings, but have "held back" (whatever that means) because the experience was an extremely intense brief realization of the reasons for searching, which included much laughter, accompanied by stream entry type awareness.
Could you have a go a trying to explain this a bit more?
I was settling into awakening during that experience and becoming more aware of returning thought processes.

Is this a problem? Did you expect this not to happen?

Im going to have a little dig around Mark – to see where you are – so bear with me OK!

Do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

If so does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Can you tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
Livininbliss
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Livininbliss » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:15 am

Are you looking for a connection between what you read and to what is being experienced with you?
Are you still seeking? Or is this about understanding?
Yes, I am looking for a connection. I don't see myself as seeking, but rather wanting a deeper understanding.
Could you have a go a trying to explain this a bit more?
I'm starting to think and have suspected that I already passed through the gate, but I just did not do it "formally" here. To phrase it another way: Any reading or listening to non-duality (no-self, no separation) teachings would intensify my experience of non separation, i.e. my field of vision would become more intensely acute to a sense of not being separate from anything that passed through my field of vision. Trees, birds, and natural surroundings "seemed' to become intensely alive and more vibrant. Having already experienced a very intense period of awakening and then observing the subsequent integration and adjustment period, then having a brief, very intense introduction to direct path experiencing, I was reserved about "jumping into" direct path teachings further until I was a little more relaxed with the idea that I may go through another dramatic shift, that could interrupt my normal functioning. I was afraid it would overdose me LOL!
Is this a problem? Did you expect this not to happen?
I didn't expect it not to happen, but I was surprised to just notice the thinking returning and then noticing that the thinking was, at times, getting heavier and heavier and sometimes i would get pulled in to thinking and then I would resist and feel out of control of my thoughts.
Do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?
If so does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?
It doesn't feel like it's in the center or middle of experience. It is not solid or thick and does not feel fixed or permanent. It feels uniquely different and separate. It does not feel like it is inside or part of the body. It doesn't seem to change. It does at times seem to own thoughts and feelings, and at other times obviously not. Sometimes with the arising of strong negative emotions it feels solid, other times with the arising of strong negative emotions it has seemed distictly different, as if it were detached from the emotional experiencing so much so that the emotional experiencing was not experienced as painful but as a passing through absent the intense suffering that may have been experienced with the same emotions before awakening.
Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?
It doesn't seem to be made up of any of the attributes listed above. The answer to the last question would be: The majority of the time.
Can you tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
I can't tell you where it is. It appears to be in memory, but memory doesn't do a whole lot of remembering much anymore.
Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Things seem to exist outside the present moment in memory. The only thing that seems permanent right now is the sense of presence I feel inside this body.
Thank you for taking the time to work with me so far!.....:)
Mark

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:57 am

Mornin Mark!
I'm starting to think and have suspected that I already passed through the gate, but I just did not do it "formally" here. To phrase it another way: Any reading or listening to non-duality (no-self, no separation) teachings would intensify my experience of non separation, i.e. my field of vision would become more intensely acute to a sense of not being separate from anything that passed through my field of vision. Trees, birds, and natural surroundings "seemed' to become intensely alive and more vibrant. Having already experienced a very intense period of awakening and then observing the subsequent integration and adjustment period, then having a brief, very intense introduction to direct path experiencing, I was reserved about "jumping into" direct path teachings further until I was a little more relaxed with the idea that I may go through another dramatic shift, that could interrupt my normal functioning. I was afraid it would overdose me LOL!
OK – lets have a little play with sense and separation – just to clear up anything not seen or not clear OK!

Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end?

How many senses are there here - 1 or more? Relate this to sound and touch – what is actually experienced – the table or the sense of seeing?
I didn't expect it not to happen, but I was surprised to just notice the thinking returning and then noticing that the thinking was, at times, getting heavier and heavier and sometimes i would get pulled in to thinking and then I would resist and feel out of control of my thoughts.
OK – so lets also have a little look at thought.

Do you bring thoughts? If so how and from where?
Do you send them away? Can you stop thought? Can you control thought in any way shape or form?
What is your next thought going to be? Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
Can a thought think?
Does thought have power – can it do anything? If so what?
What can a thought ‘know’?
What says I got pulled into thinking again?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
Livininbliss
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Livininbliss » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:46 pm

Thank you Sarah! I have a particularly demanding schedule for the next day, then I will respond in full to all the question. I did find myself laughing on the way to work this morning at the idea that thought is only really noticed, taken seriously, and given substance when the "I" is felt and experienced strongly.
Mark

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:40 am

No worries Mark!
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
Livininbliss
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Livininbliss » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:14 pm

OK – lets have a little play with sense and separation – just to clear up anything not seen or not clear OK!
Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.
Well, seeing is understanding and experiencing something non-conceptually, without any thought to get in the way.
In seeing, what is being experienced?
Whatever is happening at that moment.
What is happening when "seeing" is happening?
Whatever is happening at that moment.
What is doing the seeing?
The being that is present and conscious of seeing.
What is being seen?
What ever is happening at that moment.
What does "seeing" consists of?
Whatever is happening at that moment.
Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.
It seems that it can only be experienced in the present moment as whatever is happening right now.
Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience.
OK.
Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later?
No.
Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable?
They seem inseparable.
Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing?
No. It's just seeing.
Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing?
No.
Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
Yes.
Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object?
No. Just one.
Or is there only seeing?
There's only seeing.
What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?
That the thought arises out of nowhere.

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end?
There doesn't appear to be a beginning and an end.
How many senses are there here - 1 or more? Relate this to sound and touch – what is actually experienced – the table or the sense of seeing?
Well, it seems that even senses are happening in the field of awareness.
Livininbliss wrote:I didn't expect it not to happen, but I was surprised to just notice the thinking returning and then noticing that the thinking was, at times, getting heavier and heavier and sometimes i would get pulled in to thinking and then I would resist and feel out of control of my thoughts.

OK – so lets also have a little look at thought.
Do you bring thoughts?
No. They just appear.
If so how and from where?
Do you send them away? Can you stop thought?
No. They just stop. The "I" seems to think "it" stops them.
Can you control thought in any way shape or form?
I seem to be controlling it when I think through a creative idea.
What is your next thought going to be?
I don't know.
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
No
Can a thought think?
No
Does thought have power – can it do anything? If so what?
It doesn't have power and it can't do anything.
What can a thought ‘know’?
Nothing.
What says I got pulled into thinking again?
The "I" that thinks it is separate.


Mark

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:28 am

Hey Mark
Can you control thought in any way shape or form?
I seem to be controlling it when I think through a creative idea.
Does this mean there is control here – or a thought of control? If control – in what way do you control that creative process? Explain how that is done.
The "I" that thinks it is separate.
And where or what is that?

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
Livininbliss
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Livininbliss » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:19 am

Hey Mark
Can you control thought in any way shape or form?
Livininbliss wrote:
I seem to be controlling it when I think through a creative idea.

Does this mean there is control here – or a thought of control? If control – in what way do you control that creative process? Explain how that is done.
Livininbliss wrote:
The "I" that thinks it is separate.

And where or what is that?

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
Hugs Sarah xx
in what way do you control that creative process? Explain how that is done.
It seems that once thought starts, more of the same or similar thoughts can be summoned, and a particular thought from the stream can be held or recalled and examined with more, inquisitive thoughts about that thought. But I don't know where those thoughts come from or where the thoughts that are examined go after they are let go. I don't know who or what brings them up and lets them go.
Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
I can't find any of these. All of these, so called functions, seem to just arise and disappear.
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?
No. It seems pretty concrete, existing in the physical world, a vehicle that experiences sensations in consciousness.
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
No, but they seem to be experienced somewhere. It feels right to say they are experienced in consciousness.
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?{/quote]
I agree and I tend to refer to it as quoted by Eckhart Tolle as: an old conditioned mind pattern. Now I have looked at it much closer and refer to it as: what is happening in the space of awareness. And "I" am the consciousness that is aware that these thoughts, sensations, and impressions are happening in the vast spaciousness that is the one consciousness, wherein everything is allowed to be. There still seems to be a lot of conditioning that comes in and tries to reassert itself, make itself seem to still be an entity.
Thank you Sarah!! Hugs back to you.
Am I done?:)

Mark

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:55 am

Hi Mark
It seems that once thought starts, more of the same or similar thoughts can be summoned,
So do you summon then? Does summoning simply arise and appear too?
No. It seems pretty concrete, existing in the physical world, a vehicle that experiences sensations in consciousness.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?
(3) While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror.
Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all?
Or there are only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?{/quote]
There still seems to be a lot of conditioning that comes in and tries to reassert itself, make itself seem to still be an entity.
Onion peeling Mark – layer by layer! :)
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
Livininbliss
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Livininbliss » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:30 pm

I think I see this now. This is all happening in the dimension of consciousness. For all practical purposes (or in reality), there is no physical world- it's an illusion of separateness. There's no separate me in the physical world either- just a labeling of what's appearing in consciousness as something separate.
That would explain why, the times I saw this clearly and didn't know what I was seeing, everything in my field of vision seemed to blend together as though everything were a solid flat canvas, a canvas wherein or whereupon dimension and depth were perceivable yet everything was still connected without a clearly defined border of separation- even that doesn't quite describe it. The intense emotional and physical sensations that I also felt were a direct experience of emotion and sensations, absent of labels or descriptive, limiting words that would color the way I experienced them. Whoa!
And so thoughts arising within that label rich consciousness also get labeled, and those labels become, what appear to be, physical manifestations or parts to that physical manifestation. Concepts and entire schools of thought and knowledge are constructed from the basic assumption about an unquestioned or challenged thought/label- snowball affect.....On and on and on.....!! The current collective perception of reality, the status-quo of consciousness.....
How can I see this more deeply?

Thank you Sarah!!!

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:32 am

Hey Mark
I like to be thorough – so lets just do one more clarifying check! Can you answer in as much detail as you feel is necessary.

Do you feel the illusion of self has been revealed? If so what remains?

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Anything else to add?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
Livininbliss
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Re: Taking awakening to the next level

Postby Livininbliss » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:07 pm

{quote]Do you feel the illusion of self has been revealed? If so what remains?[/quote]

I feel that it has been revealed. What remains, appears to be thoughts and sensations, some that are associated with the illusion of a separate self, some that are distinctly associated with the experience of SELF-oneness.
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate entity. There never was.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self is something that started in childhood. I don't know exactly when it started. It has been existing as a story of everything that has ever happened in this life, that gives the story substance, meaning, and continuity. It is nothing more than a story that gets embelished with lots of "I"'s , I am this, I am that, I was this, I was that. It has been a story of identification with objects, activities, people. It has been a story of identification with stories, roles, ideas. It even happens in ways that I don't entirely see, because there exist in consciousness a conditioned pattern of impressions that arise and get recognized as "I" or "me" automatically. They will be more easily seen and recognized now because of the looking that we have done.
How does it feel to see this?
It feels great. The sense of peace that I feel has taken on a different quality, is felt more directly. As I write it feels more expansive, light.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Before starting this dialogue, I seemed to be bogged down, distracted in, and identifying with thoughts.
Please report from the past few days. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The exercises using the mirror, body movements, and sensations helped push me over. Also the direct experiences that I have already had have been a reference.
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
"I" don't make anything happen. Things do happen. They just happen.
Anything else to add?
Just a" thank you" for "your time" and guidance in helping me "see"
It would be cool if you PM'd me with a link to a photo of Sarah, and I would do the same. Just for grins, nothing more:)
i have a girlfriend:)

Mark
Hugs Sarah xxx


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests