Still Stuck

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RubbyDubby
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Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:57 am

Hi
Requesting a guide. I've done this before and was 'confirmed', but have my doubts that "I" got it.
thanks
Rick

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Xain
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Re: Still Stuck

Postby Xain » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:49 am

Hi Rick

Welcome (back?) to Unleashed.
I've done this before and was 'confirmed', but have my doubts that "I" got it.
What was your previous name on the Forum?
There is no need to put 'I' in quotes or use any form of special language - I will understand what you mean.

What makes you think you didn't get the realisation?
What was realised or discovered (if anything)?
What problems are you encountering now?

Many problems after realisation can come from unresolved expectations.
What expectations did you have, or do you have about the process?
What something expected to change? If so, what?

Best wishes to you
Xain ♥

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RubbyDubby
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Re: Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:57 pm

Goots.
The experience of life doesn't seem to have changed significantly. There is still much 'selfing' going on. Much doubt that I got it. Suspect that there is an intellectual understanding of sorts but no depth in the understanding or felt sense that there is no I.
At the time there was a very noticeable experience of presence, or seemingly so. Seeking is still taking place. Having said that, the type of seeking is different. Fewer thoughts about future and certainly less obsession with future.
There has also been little change since I first did my session. I think what's expected is a clear, undeniable sense of 'got it'. Unquestionable.

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby Xain » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:42 pm

Hmmm . . . Ok.
I think what's expected is a clear, undeniable sense of 'got it'
How would you know that you 'got it' exactly? Would would change?
Tell me exactly what this thing is that you are hoping to attain or achieve (or feel that has not yet fully been achieved) - What EXACTLY is wanted or expected?
The experience of life doesn't seem to have changed significantly.
Should it have changed? How? A change for whom?
At the time there was a very noticeable experience of presence, or seemingly so.
When you say 'at the time', do you mean when you last went through the guidance?
Was it with LU, this guidance? You didn't mention your previous forum name . . .

Again, is this down to some-sort of expectation? That something should change or be different?
Please be honest.

Xain ♥

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:55 am

I don't know how I would know I 'got it'. I think it has to do with the end of questioning. If I look at an example of something I'm certain of, I'm certain that it is dangerous to run around blindfolded in the middle of a highway. Stupid idea. Don't doubt that at all. Don't have any question about it. Can't guarantee I'd be roadkill but the odds are pretty darned good. So I think I'm expecting this unquestioned certainty, followed by experiences which match what others have reported. More peace. Less concern over past and future. An end to doubt.
Ya, there is some imaginary 'way' this is supposed to be going, and in reality it is just going the way it is going. Doubt is just something happening when it happens. The story of me is still happening in my head but there is no me to whom such a story is occurring. I think the story of me should stop being spun. That's an expectation. Doesn't mean there's a me. The continuing saga has been taken as evidence that there is still work to be done.
I think what should have changed is that there is some kind of clear, undying conviction that there is no me.
"At the time" related to last guidance as forum name Goots, mentioned above."
Yes, I think there is an expectation that the presence I felt or experienced when I read the Gateless Gatecrashers book the first time and read the part about there being watching but no watcher and... yes, there's an expectation that that clarity and conviction and certainty would remain.

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby Xain » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:45 pm

Thank you for the detailed reply, Rick (makes my job easier).
The experience of life doesn't seem to have changed significantly.
Ok, this is an expectation. Don't expect anything to change . . . or to have a change or experience in comparison with other people's realisations.
Each realisation is unique. Seeing 'no separate self' may come without any change at all. The outcome cannot be estimated . . . but certainly it is the end of seeking, which itself may be a relief! :-)

We examine 'I', this separate self that we believe we are.
Do you believe there is a separate 'I' experiencing life right now? . . . and that 'I' will experience life differently after it is realised there is no separate 'I' experiencing life? See the conundrum?
Suspect that there is an intellectual understanding of sorts but no depth in the understanding or felt sense that there is no I.
Sure - I understand. This is where I was before my own realisation with LU.
I think what's expected is a clear, undeniable sense of 'got it'. Unquestionable.
Sure. Certainly when you see it, it is clear that . . . yes . . . you definitely see it.
Since you are still seeking, that does tend to suggest that no, you haven't realised it yet . . . and it leaves stuff for us to examine together.

I won't (at the moment) read your previous guidance. I'll start completely fresh if that is ok with you.

I will ask of you two simple things.
1) To put aside all expectations other than to realise 'no separate self' - That's it.
2) To answer honestly from basic beliefs you hold (and not what you've read or been told by other people)

My guidance is for one thing - And that is to realise that the separate self or person that you believe you are is nothing more than an idea - A self-referencing thought. As such, there is no separate self here now. Nor has there ever been. Nor will there ever be.

How does that sound?

Have a look at these guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

It is useful to use the 'Quote' button as I have to quote my replies - It will make the conversation easier.
A guide for it's use can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Let me know if you have anything else you would like to mention or questions you may have, and we can begin if you would like.

Xain ♥

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:22 pm

testing quote thing
Do you believe there is a separate 'I' experiencing life right now? . . . and that 'I' will experience life differently after it is realised there is no separate 'I' experiencing life? See the conundrum?
blah blah blah

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:39 pm

Do you believe there is a separate 'I' experiencing life right now? . . . and that 'I' will experience life differently after it is realised there is no separate 'I' experiencing life? See the conundrum?
I do see the conundrum. It's not possible for something that doesn't exist to see it doesn't exist. It's not possible for this non-existent 'I' to realize or experience anything. However, the sense of being a separate self seems to have persisted in spite of the understanding that I am merely the subject or object in thought. If I could cut open my head and start clawing through my brain matter I don't see any chance of finding a tangible, identifiable self within the tissue. Nonetheless, there is a continued sense of separation. There is also an expectation that life would/will be experienced differently (ie. from "I experience this differently" to simple "experiencing".)
I won't (at the moment) read your previous guidance. I'll start completely fresh if that is ok with you.
I think that is the better course, too. thx.
My guidance is for one thing - And that is to realise that the separate self or person that you believe you are is nothing more than an idea - A self-referencing thought. As such, there is no separate self here now. Nor has there ever been. Nor will there ever be. How does that sound?
Perfectly fine. Ready to proceed. Thank you for taking the time out of your life to do this!

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Xain
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Re: Still Stuck

Postby Xain » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:28 pm

Great to see you've got the hand of the quote function! ;-)
Ok, let's get cooking . . .
However, the sense of being a separate self seems to have persisted in spite of the understanding that I am merely the subject or object in thought.
Ok, could you elaborate on two things from this for me from this . . .

1) You say that it is understood that 'I' is merely the subject or object of thought. Ok.
Can you maybe give me an idea how you know this to be the case.
Is it true for ALL cases of 'I' (without exception)?
Can you say it is certain for each and every one of the following cases (please give them all some honest consideration).

An 'I' that is performing any of the senses - I see, I hear, I feel etc
An 'I' that has any form of choice or control AT ALL (including starting this guidance here with me, and replying to this message!)
An 'I' that creates thoughts - Experiences or owns thoughts - Or in any way controls thoughts.

2) You say 'the sense of being a separate self'. Ok.
Again, no fancy language needed . . . but what exactly do you mean?
How exactly does this manifest itself . . . to such a degree that seeking is still happening?
Can you give examples, perhaps?
(I can elaborate further and deeper on this area, but I want you to give me your ideas first before doing so).

Xain ♥

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:03 pm

Ok, could you elaborate on two things from this for me from this . . .

1) You say that it is understood that 'I' is merely the subject or object of thought. Ok.
Can you maybe give me an idea how you know this to be the case.
Is it true for ALL cases of 'I' (without exception)?
I can't honestly say it's true for all cases of 'I' because I think there's a blind spot somewhere, some unexamined aspect of this that hasn't been seen yet.
Having said that, if 'I' is merely the subject or object of thought, and that is it's nature, then it would be just in thought. So what's happening is that thought is reinforcing the apparent existence of an 'imaginary I', not confirming the existence of a real self. So it's true that this reinforcement process is continuing. It is further reinforced by interactions with other people who seem to agree that I exists. Interactive story weaving.
Can you say it is certain for each and every one of the following cases (please give them all some honest consideration).

An 'I' that is performing any of the senses - I see, I hear, I feel etc
An 'I' that has any form of choice or control AT ALL (including starting this guidance here with me, and replying to this message!)
An 'I' that creates thoughts - Experiences or owns thoughts - Or in any way controls thoughts.
There is a background assumption running that says I see, I hear, I feel but when looked at more closely it's clear that there is no prior commanding of blinks, glances, or eye movements at all. Seeing is happening regardless of whether I think I should look at something first, or not. It seems like I can command my eyes to shut and because of that apparent cause and effect there is a claim that I did it, but the thought to shut them in the first place didn't get commanded in advance by my self.
Hearing happens and I can't stop it. It seems like hearing can be commanded to pay attention to a particular sound but the hearing itself just happens. It's on all the time even when I don't want to hear something.
There is definitely no commander in charge of feeling. I can't stop pain. I can't stop anger or sadness. These feelings, emotions and sensations just arise.
I have been thinking of reconnecting with someone to talk about my doubts about 'no me' for some months now and all of a sudden it happened the other day. Just happened. Before it just didn't happen. Interestingly, the claim that I did or didn't do something often triggers the creation of a story about 'why' I did or didn't do something which then reinforces self judgments. "There's something wrong with me because I didn't do it." My imaginary character is feeling guilty today and in a funk! Jesus.
I is like this manic prospector claiming Mine Mine Mine Mine and attaching to all thoughts, sensations, feelings, experiences, etc etc etc. Like "look at me, I came up with this wicked 'manic prospector' example". In reality, the thought just came to mind and got expressed. I is standing ready claim "I got it" when 'no me' is realized but how can something that doesn't exist be responsible for a realization. How can a character in a thought story realize it doesn't exist?
2) You say 'the sense of being a separate self'. Ok.
Again, no fancy language needed . . . but what exactly do you mean?
How exactly does this manifest itself . . . to such a degree that seeking is still happening?
Can you give examples, perhaps?
(I can elaborate further and deeper on this area, but I want you to give me your ideas first before doing so).
I have to go and will come back to answering this later today.

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:05 am

2) You say 'the sense of being a separate self'. Ok.
Again, no fancy language needed . . . but what exactly do you mean?
How exactly does this manifest itself . . . to such a degree that seeking is still happening?
Can you give examples, perhaps?
(I can elaborate further and deeper on this area, but I want you to give me your ideas first before doing so).
Life still seems to be happening to 'me'. I bashed my finger this morning so that's something that happened to me. It still hurts. That's affecting my typing right now. Seems to be happening to me. It's an underlying assumption that is still in operation, or so it seems.
I'm tired right now. Seems to be happening to me. It's like the story of me is still in front of experience or attaching to experience. Continued identification with the 'me' character. In a way, there is a safety and a familiarity with it.
By being a separate self I mean there's me, here, experiencing life, other people, and the world as separate. And along with that is a fairly steady stream of mental noise.
Looking back at your question "How does a sense of a separate self ... cause seeking?" ... I don't know that it does. Seeking is happening because there is a belief that there is something still to get, understand, or realize. Somehow in some way there's an idea that this life should be lived/experienced differently, or could be.

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Xain
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Re: Still Stuck

Postby Xain » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:43 am

Again, thank you for your detailed reply.
We will go through all the points at some stage but I feel it's important to only focus on one area at once or we'll get bogged down.

It seems the belief that 'I am this body' is still operating strongly.

Would you suggest that the senses (seeing, hearing, feeling etc) are being done by 'this body'?
So for example, 'I am seeing a screen' - I feel the keys under my fingers'.
I have been thinking of reconnecting with someone to talk about my doubts about 'no me' for some months now and all of a sudden it happened the other day. Just happened. Before it just didn't happen.
Great! I often ask 'did you choose to have a conversation with me' as a final question - that's one I won't need to ask now ;-)
Life still seems to be happening to 'me'. I bashed my finger this morning so that's something that happened to me. It still hurts. That's affecting my typing right now. Seems to be happening to me. It's an underlying assumption that is still in operation, or so it seems.
Again 'Me' being 'this body'?
And 'this body' is separate from all other objects and 'other bodies (people)'?
'I am this body, and the other people are those bodies'.
By being a separate self I mean there's me, here, experiencing life, other people, and the world as separate. And along with that is a fairly steady stream of mental noise.
Ok - So it is 'you' experiencing the external world - Also 'you' experiencing the mental noise (thoughts).

How does that sound?
Is that kind-of where you are? I'm trying to simply a few things.

Xain ♥

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RubbyDubby
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Re: Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:05 pm

Would you suggest that the senses (seeing, hearing, feeling etc) are being done by 'this body'?
I think this is accurate. It's like I 'get' it's better to be a nice, kind person but habitually I'm a jerk. If I examine things closely I can see there's nobody commanding the body (parts), but in practice I'm habitually experiencing life as a command and control center.
And 'this body' is separate from all other objects and 'other bodies (people)'?
'I am this body, and the other people are those bodies'.
That would be my day to day, standard assumption, yes.
Ok - So it is 'you' experiencing the external world - Also 'you' experiencing the mental noise (thoughts).

How does that sound?
Is that kind-of where you are? I'm trying to simply a few things.
Yes. There's an intellectual understanding of 'no me', but I experience the world moment to moment as a me taking a sip of coffee. Still assuming I'm the mental character acting in the real world.

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby Xain » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:28 pm

I experience the world moment to moment as a me taking a sip of coffee. Still assuming I'm the mental character acting in the real world.
Ok, we'll start with 'I am experiencing the world' - To expand, this would be a belief that 'I am this body' and 'this body operates the senses, and senses the external world (external to the body)'
Just for the moment notice the duality (two) here - There is a body (me, 'I') on one side, and the other thing that is experienced on the other (the external world).

Right - Let's look at one sense - SEEING.

You may have done this already in the previous guidance - In the exercises that follow try to determine what is an IDEA about what is happening, and what can be found from the experience itself. That is not to say the IDEA is wrong or bad, but merely to establish the one from the other.

This screen is being seen. Words are being read off this screen.
From the experience of 'seeing this screen' and 'reading these words', can what is doing that be found?
Can it be 'found' what is responsible for that in the experience itself?
Can an 'I' be found that is doing the seeing? Can an 'I' be found doing the reading?
Is it clear that 'the body' is responsible for either of these activities FROM THE EXPERIENCES OF SEEING AND READING ITSELF?

Notice I mentioned the 'two' previously?
In the experience of seeing, are there two things to be found - A body doing it, and an external world being seen?
Or is there 'just what is seen'?
In the experience of reading, are there two things to be found - A body doing it, and external words being read?
Or is there 'just reading happening'?

Xain ♥

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Re: Still Stuck

Postby RubbyDubby » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:34 pm

this body operates the senses
This is definitely an unquestioned assumption. I've looked at "I operate the senses" previously. That doesn't appear to be true. However, it has been assumed the body does. I also think that what trips me up is the fact that the body comes with a unique perspective. Nobody else is feeling the pain in my finger. It's unique to this body/mind. Nobody else is aware of the thoughts taking place in my head. That's unique to this body/mind.
I see the duality of self/body/mind and other(s) and/or world.
This screen is being seen. Words are being read off this screen.
From the experience of 'seeing this screen' and 'reading these words', can what is doing that be found?
Can it be 'found' what is responsible for that in the experience itself?
Can an 'I' be found that is doing the seeing? Can an 'I' be found doing the reading?
Is it clear that 'the body' is responsible for either of these activities FROM THE EXPERIENCES OF SEEING AND READING ITSELF?
Without thinking, there is just the experience of seeing the screen and the words. When thought comes in to 'describe' the scene, then there's a me/body/eyes reading from a separate computer screen over there.
In looking to find what is experiencing the seeing this screen, there is just the looking to find the experiencer. When thought comes in the outer world and the body sitting in the chair with a mind that 'might contain an experiencer' gets created and doubts come to mind. There's the possibility, in thought, that an unseen experiencer or seer exists somewhere in the head.
The voice/narrator in the head that reads the words AND the unseen space listening to the voice/narrator are both assumed to be me. So the mental process of narration is unseen and unfindable, but assumed to be the self or part of the self. Same goes for the narrator's audience in the head. The space to which the words are heard, to which thoughts occur or are experienced, is assumed to be self.
In the simple experience or act of seeing, there is no I. In the simple experience or act of reading, there is no I. There is just seeing and/or reading.
I can't even say the eyes/body are seeing or reading. That's the result of a learned explanation of the process, and a learned attribution of who or what is responsible for the process! Eyes don't see is a bit of a mind blower. Just seeing.
Notice I mentioned the 'two' previously?
In the experience of seeing, are there two things to be found - A body doing it, and an external world being seen?
Or is there 'just what is seen'?
In the experience of reading, are there two things to be found - A body doing it, and external words being read?
Or is there 'just reading happening'?
If I eliminate the long held assumption that "eyes see" then the experience of seeing seems to open up to itself. The separate seer and the seen seems to drop away and there is just what is being seen happening. Have never questioned whether or not my eyes see, or even eyes see.


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