Thread for vierowb

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vierowb
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Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:19 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed? Read the book The Gateless Gate, loved it.
-What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry? Checking out the forum for advice and discussions.
-What do you expect of the conversation on this forum? Hopefully some intelligent reading. It's always fun to see questions 'I' have had thoughts about.

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EmptySet00
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby EmptySet00 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:30 pm

Hello vierowb,

I'm Empty Set, and I'll be happy to guide you.

I like to have new clients read the "this is not" description, which helps to clear up some common misconceptions:
http://liberationunleashed.com/faqs/lib ... ed-is-not/

I request that you post at least once a day, even if it's just a quick note saying you're still here. I will do the same.

Could you please tell me a little more about yourself, how you came here, what kind of spiritual background you have if any, and what you expect from this process?

Thanks,
ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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vierowb
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:09 am

I apologize. I am new to the forum, have been out of town for quite some time and very busy. I also did not know this post existed until I came across it today.
I have read the Gateless Gate, and am almost finished with LOOK. Great books and very ‘I’ opening :-). I believe I have seen that there is no ‘I’ which is why it seems rather funny writing I so often, but when ‘I’ talk about ‘I’, it’s only as a reference to Body, Nervous system, Brain, Thought. When I first saw that I did not exist I was walking around a pond by myself looking for my ‘I/self’ and going through every reason why there was an ‘I’ and could find none (which is when I came to that AHA moment). I felt a bit different for about a week. I remember being in a meeting, not really caring, not being nervous, just being there. I remember distinctly coming up with brilliant answers, even though ‘I’ was not truly there, and even though 'I' was not the subject expert. It was an awesome and amazing feeling. My stress level has also been waaaayyyyyy lower since not finding myself :-). Anyway, since that time, work has been very busy and normally would be considered very stressful, but I seem to just be there working in the moment and taking things as they come. But I also seem to keep referring to myself as ‘I’ and getting caught back up in the illusion, but then I remember to step back and look, and I do, and there is no ‘I’. But yet, I don’t have that same feeling of total relaxedness (maybe because the newness wore off?), not sure why, but I miss it, and I feel like I have fallen back into the rut of not fully believing that there is no ‘I’. Like I might be missing a reason that the 'I' really exists, otherwise, why would all the great minds of the world not see/know this.?
Sorry to ramble, but those are ‘my’ thoughts… that really aren’t mine, they’re just what thoughts come out of this head from the memory experience throughout my lifetime. This brain sure is attached to thought and that’s for sure!
Now that I know this post is going, I will try to respond at least once everyday, even with the extremely busy week coming up.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby EmptySet00 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:26 pm

Vierowb, (Do you mind if I call you that?)

Thanks for filling me in.

When you say that you realized that you did not exist, what was it exactly that you realized did not exist?
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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vierowb
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:01 am

A Seperate self that was making decisions and directing my life. I want to say behind the scenes, but the thought of self seemed to always be in front of the scenes, semi-making the scenes happen. It was when I realized that there was no 'I' or 'me' (a separate thing inside my head) dictating and directing my life (making or even semi-making decisions), that the relief came, and 'I' finally realized that there truly is no self (nor has there been). Just thoughts, sensations, and experiencing (witnessing without a witness).
It didn't come easy, that's for sure. There was about a week of anger and pretty extreme irritation/frustration, trying to prove the 'no-self' concept wrong, and looking high and low (exploring and checking everywhere). Maybe that's why it felt so great that first week :-) ...because of the previous week being so full or irritation and frustration.
'I' still don't feel as confident as I did that first week (about having no self), even though I keep checking, and still not finding a self. It's like I saw there was no Santa Clause, and it was just my parent the whole time, but I keep thinking... Just maybe that is Santa right there flying his sleigh in the night sky. But then I get some binoculars and find that there still is no Santa, and then I think, maybe I just need better binoculars, after all, all these 'brilliant people' still think there is a Santa Clause, and have written whole books about it and even dedicated fields of study around it. Freud, Pavlov, and others like Einstein, Hawking, etc. whom all seem to think a self exists.
Thanks for taking the time and coming back to me, since my post had been here so long. It was a little confusing because it says I have 0 messages, but I guess that only refers to the inbox. Thanks again.

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vierowb
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:17 am

That said... I think my AHA moment was when I was walking around a pond (on a nice path), and looking hard, and coming to the realization/seeing that 'I' is nothing more than a thought attaching itself to a thought that the brain already came up with, and claiming ownership of that idea/thought. If that makes sense. There is no 'I' that can control or manipulate thought. There is just thought doing it's thing, and then another thought claiming it as 'I' or 'my' or 'self'.
Another thing that fascinated me was looking at ownership of an object for example (maybe a car or a house or even a dog). Does 'anyone' really own it? There is a physical body, but can a physical body really own something? Nope. A brain by itself? nope. Thought? nope. So does anyone really 'own' anything in this world? I think there is only the appearance of owning something; but in reality, I think everything is pretty much just being borrowed.
Sorry, had to ramble because nobody else seems to get this stuff.

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vierowb
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:15 pm

That's probably why humans invented the self to begin with. ...So they could claim ownership to things. Even though Self is just a name for a body, nervous system, brain, feelings/sensations and thoughts, this 'self' gave people a way to claim rights to property and the like. Then we started thinking that self was an actual 'thing' or 'being' inside of us that made decisions and created thoughts and was responsible for the way our lives turned out.
Then when we would begin to walk, our parents would say "Oh! Look at YOU! YOU walked!" or "Oh, YOU'RE so cute", and we would say "oh... I walked, I did good", or "Oh, I am cute. Aren't I special" and it was all down hill from there.

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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby EmptySet00 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:24 pm

It sounds like this isn't completely clear for you. Let's look at a few things. First, thoughts.

Do you control thoughts?

Can you predict what the next thought will be?

Can you decide not to have any thoughts for the next half hour?

If I tell you not to think of a gorilla, can you do that?
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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EmptySet00
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby EmptySet00 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:35 pm

Sorry, I read through your answers quickly at first, and after looking again it seems like the answers to these questions about thoughts might already be very clear to you. If that's true, please let me know.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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vierowb
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:12 am

Thoughts are only something that people "believe" they have control over ("belief" is nothing more than another thought). When if fact if you look, thoughts just occur and there is no "self" that has any control over them (or makes any decisions). The mind spews thought, and thought finds the best solution based on past memory/experience on its own without this "me" doing a thing (problem is; then the "me" tries to attach to the thought as if it is its own, but this "me" is only another thought). Any perceived control over a thought would be just another thought itself. Right?
So... No. I can't think of a Gorilla, but my thoughts can picture one pretty clearly (and then, there is an "I" thought that claims... "I am picturing a Gorilla." or "I can picture a Gorilla"; when in fact, there is only the 'mind' (or thought) picturing the Gorilla.
'Mind' also seems like a label because it is a word that points to, and describes, different regions of where thought and sensations are coming from and maybe how the thoughts are interpreted ...but is there anything interpreting thought???? Something in the brain like the Hippocampus or Amygdala, or is interpreting just another thought??). But there is really no such real thing/object as mind. Mind is nothing more than a word that tries to define different patterns of thought. Right?
Is there something more that interprets thought? Could that be a self? :-O. Or is it just more thought?
...Hmmmm. Thinking about that. But this is exactly what I am talking about... how even though I have seen there is no such thing as a 'self' or 'I', 'I' keep finding my 'mind' trying to still look for this elusive creature. :-)

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vierowb
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:26 am

...Nope. There is no 'I' in the Hippocampus or Amygdala, or any other part of the brain. Different parts of the brain that can produce and maybe have an impact on thoughts... but still no 'self' or 'I' in there anywhere. There seem to be the pieces that make up the 'I' but no object or real thing defined as 'I', still just a label for a grouping of different pieces.

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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:48 pm

Do you experience a hippocampus or an amygdala?
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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vierowb
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:04 pm

Nope. No experience.

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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby EmptySet00 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:28 pm

Is there an "I" that moves the body?

At some point in the next minute, lift up your hand. Is there a "you" deciding to move the hand and lifting it?
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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vierowb
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Re: Thread for vierowb

Postby vierowb » Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:35 am

Nope. None. only the thought of moving it, and it moving. No 'I'.


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