A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

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mtrose
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A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby mtrose » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:57 pm

-What brings you to Liberation Unleashed? A friend highly recommended your dialogue process. I have explored your site and am impressed with the process and the resources.
-What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry? Seeking seems to have always been occurring. However, after the loss of my husband to cancer a year and a half ago, previous beliefs no longer made sense and I went through a dark time. I was introduced to non-duality by a friend. I have read and listened to a variety of resources. I have had several small experiences that appear to be a sense of realization of no-self. However, I would appreciate more confirmation of such or if so, a deeper realization of such.
-What do you expect of the conversation on this forum? I would like a confirmed experience of the realization of the illusion of a separate self. From that realization, I imagine my mind will become less and less prone to attaching to thoughts and conditioning may fall away more and more. That seems much more peaceful. And, there is just a prompting to do this, for whatever reason.

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:13 pm

Hi, vince here.
Is mtrose an metaphor for empty flower ?
Now there is mental deduction (understanding) and there is the experiencing at the level of the organism. Looking at the second one...
Tell me what you have realized (made real) about your Self ?

vince

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby mtrose » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:45 am

Hi, Vince,
Wow. I like that—empty rose—actually I was thinking “mountain” rose. But, maybe there is much more to it than I thought! Lol
I have had several flash experiences. In meeting with a nondual teacher, I seemed to “get it” and seemed to say all the “right” things in seeing that i am “experiencing” as opposed to doing anything. It felt like a mini realization of sorts, but seems like a dream now. I can intellectually get it, but it isn’t much of a felt sense.
I also had an experience where I was driving, my mind all over the place with thoughts, and a sudden flash of “whoa, who is driving?” and a quick flash of “be-ing” or “observing.”
Then, recently, I was listening to a guided meditation and had a flash sense of “I” being everywhere.
That's about it! : )
Thank you!
mtrose

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:02 pm

Good evening mt,
I have had several flash experiences.
Have these "flash experiences" changed your life in any way ?
I seemed to “get it”
Why do you say "seemed" ?
It felt like a mini realization of sorts,
By this you infer that this realization is less than a major realization. Have you had a major realization (to have something to compare this one with) ?
but seems like a dream now.
Does this mean that now it doesn't seem real ?
..or that it is being forgotten ? ..or...
but it isn’t much of a felt sense.
Does this mean that some sensation will give credibility to something ? Say something about this...
That's about it! : )
That seems a pretty big "it!".
Have you constructed a story about what these experiences mean ?

love

vince

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby mtrose » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:08 am

Hi, Vince,

Have flash experiences changed my life in any way?

There is a realization that there is seeing/observing/experiencing beneath/beyond thought.
When listening/reading/talking with someone on non-duality, I comprehend some of what is being said.
I am more able to recognize thoughts as perceptions, not truth—sometimes quickly, sometimes more slowly if emotionally hooked.
I am more often able to see cause and effect as mental processes to make meaning of life—a.k.a . story making—obviously did not do so in these discussed realizations, lol, but in some cases.
There is more of a realization that life is just happening and I am just a part of life experiencing with no causation or “doing” on my part. Attachment and resistance on my part can make for more struggling—but I even wonder if that is just part of the happening as well. I don’t know.
More and more, I “know” less and less. Life is just mystery that I am experiencing.

So, yes, I do see that they have changed my life.

Wow, looks like my mind has hooked onto thoughts creating quite a complex story inferring that since the experiences were not what the mind considered big enough or sustained indefinitely by some felt sense/sensation or able to be recalled and re-experienced, then they weren’t real or enough. So the mind apparently had all sorts of underlying expectations based on the experiences of others. (wanted to put a question mark right there instead of a period so I guess there is continued doubt. : \

Sort of paradoxical—a realization that the thoughts are not real and that “I Am,”, but the mind is attaching to other thoughts that are doubting that or wanting to diminish it.

This is an amazing process!
Thank you,
mtrose

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:07 am

'evening mt.
So the mind apparently had all sorts of underlying expectations based on the experiences of others.
Would it be more accurate to say "based on your interpretation of the experience of others." ?
Have a look at this video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o42JOsEiOok
More and more, I “know” less and less. Life is just mystery that I am experiencing.
Yes, yes. WonderFull isn't it.
the thoughts are not real and that “I Am,”
Say more on this.
but the mind is attaching to other thoughts that are doubting that or wanting to diminish it.
By "the mind", do you mean a thought stream ? Oh, i get it. There is a focus on a flurry of doubt thoughts, and sceptical thoughts ?
Do any of the thoughts that arise have more inherent credibility than others ?
Do some thoughts carry more weight than others ?

love

vince

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby mtrose » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:17 am

Hi, Vince,

Yes, based on my mind’s interpretation of the experience of others, maybe the mind has attached to thoughts of expectations. Thank you for the video. From watching the video, would it be true to say that to whatever my mind attends, i perceive as reality. So, would the video imply that what is perceived as reality is extremely limited due to the brain’s suppression of so much more that is not being given attention. So, if thoughts are not attached to, that is more that can actually be perceived rather than suppressed by the brain? I’ve watched the video 5 times and it seems so profound that I may have to watch it many more times!

More on “the thoughts are not real and that “I Am”:
I guess it would be clearer to say that thoughts come and i recognize that they are just thoughts and the mind doesn’t attach so quickly to them, if at all. For example, there have been many thoughts of needing to worry or stress or struggle in deciding what to do next in my life. But more and more, there is a sense of just seeing me do things that need to be done and more of a peace that it is all playing out as it is to play out. And when thoughts come saying “that doesn’t make sense” or “I need to hurry or get busy,” these thoughts aren’t attached to as easily. There is more of a watching what is happening—or at least there is a witness self that is more peaceful and content. So, the thoughts—primarily negative-- aren’t viewed as a big deal. Whether thoughts are “real” or not, I don’t know. But, they are more easily dismissed.

As for “I Am,” there is a sense that “I” “is” and everything is occurring without “me” “doing.” There is less struggle and more of an acceptance for what is. It is as though some new lighter accepting flow of thoughts is more prevalent. But, there are little thoughts of wariness and not wanting to be deceived. So, yes, some thoughts do have more credibility or weight than others. In general, when thoughts or emotions of a stronger weight occur, other thoughts come in saying to look closely to see what the root is—I can see that as productive, but still thoughts. The more peaceful thoughts tend to be of increasing strength and credibility than the more “negative” or “suffering causing” ones. And, thoughts arise that it could just be “the power of positive thinking,” and that could be true, but this appears different in that the emotions and thoughts are congruent. In addition, there’s just a sense that all is well—even if thoughts are wacky, all is well.

Thinking and writing about all this is quite strange. There is an “objective” observer or witness self that seems to be telling you what the other parts of the self are thinking when all of these parts aren’t even “real”—they are just all different types or sets of thoughts, some with stronger weight than others. And underlying all that, i am aware—at least intellectually because of the driving experience-- that there is observing. It is difficult to express all this in words or proper terminology, but there are thoughts that say that you will be able to figure out what i’m saying. ; )

In reading over what I have typed, I can see that there is a subtle difference in explanation and maybe perception from the top and the bottom. I could revise the top, but i will just leave it as it is—that was the thought stream at the time. : ) Thoughts arise that this process is silly since it is just thoughts. Another part says go for it--it is important--and since it is being done, it is being done.

Thank you so much!
mtrose

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:33 pm

Good morning mt,
Yes, based on my mind’s interpretation of the experience of others, maybe the mind has attached to thoughts of expectations.
Yes, it's amazing how powerful and pervasive stories of Enlightenment are, even in our cult(ure).
My wife points the finger every time i get angry or frustrated...
From watching the video, would it be true to say that to whatever my mind attends, i perceive as reality.
Good question. Let's not talk of reality like it is a 'thing'. (it is an abstract noun) ...but rather talk of what is real. Even here we can get lost easily.
Can you think of anything besides thoughts about.. and sensations, that actually exist ?
Both of these have a direct, primary, effect. Then there are consequences (reactions) that arise from them.
So you experience a sensation, then thoughts arise to give it meaning and a response is birthed.
So you experience a thought (stream) and other thoughts arise to give it meaning and a response is birthed.
The sensation is 'real', as is the thought (but its' content is pure concept)
The response to these begins as story, but then we react to that story. The reaction is real.
Then we have more story overlaid on that reaction. ...and so on.
So can you say that there is anything real besides thought and sensation (not what they are about) ?

Now of course, we behave as if many things are real. That is just a necessity for daily living, but it doesn't mean that we have to believe them. It is just practicality.
But in my story of mtrose, this is already known.
You appear to have broken the link between story and reaction (to a degree), but we can always go 'deeper'.
In this case, can you SEE that all perception (by your organism) is entirely 'you' ?
Another way to put it, is to ask; Is there a perceiver, perceiving a perceived ? ...or is there just perceiving ?




love

vince

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby mtrose » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:37 am

Hi, Vince,

Hmm. It sounds nice that you and your wife can “point fingers” and remind each other of what is actually real! : )

1. Can you say that there is anything real besides thought and sensation?

No, i can see that there is only sensation (of the five senses) and thoughts.

2. Can you SEE that all perception is entirely “you”?

I’m not totally sure of how we are using the words “perception” or “you.”
Just to make sure, I think we are defining perception as experiencing—as in experiencing thoughts and sensations? Right?
But, I know that the perception has nothing to do with anyone or anything else—as technically “anything or anyone else” would just be perceiving by “me.”

3. Is there a perceiver perceiving a perceived? OR Is there just perceiving?

Intellectually i know there is just perceiving—because of the memory of the flash experiences.
Are there some exercises or activities i can do that would deepen that knowing?
or I guess that is what all this is about! lol

Oh, so where does “knowing” fit in all of this? I’m talking of an intuitive sort of knowing.
Would it be of the thoughts that don’t have the overlay of story or is it something different?

And, there is a thought that i can give all the “right” answers from an intellectual place, but not really know. So, skeptical thought streams are being perceived along with some thought streams of insecurity in maybe not having the terminology correct. ; )

I appreciate your walking me through this process! : )
mtrose

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:18 am

Intellectually i know there is just perceiving—because of the memory of the flash experiences.
Hmm, this needs clarifying... You have a memory of an experience, but you say that it is just intellectual knowing ??
Can you LOOK in current experiencing and tell what is perceived ?
Are there some exercises or activities i can do that would deepen that knowing?
Yes, but that knowing has only transient value.
Obviously for navigating everyday living, it has little value, but in negotiating the 'inner' world, it has infinite value. It is at this point that you recognize that everything and everybody can only be known as your projection. That what is apparently objective is but a screen for your mind.
Try this exercise:
Sit by the window and look out on the street then simply notice what experience arises and as it flows and label it like “I am sitting, I am looking, I am hearing, I am thinking, I am feeling, I am scratching, I am yawning . . . etc.” as each activity is noticed.

Now get up and walk around for a couple of minutes, then come back to the noticing – this time drop the “I am . . . “

Notice that these different sensations, feelings and thoughts arise by themselves, there is no “I” behind them pushing them out – there is no “I” there that is perceiving them – relax into the flow and just notice that there is thinking happening, there is seeing happening, there is hearing happening, there is yawning happening, there is breathing happening, there is feeling happening . . . the sensations and the noticing of them just happen.

Can you find an “I” anywhere in this flow?
Oh, so where does “knowing” fit in all of this?
If we hone in on the real specifics of this (concept) called knowing, we might find that it is no different to believing.
...but i was referring to what you had 'seen'. (language fails us here)
In the end we are talking of a change in experiencing from before to after.
How do these 'events' (intellectual or experiential) change your level of 'contentment' ?
What is still missing ?
And, there is a thought that i can give all the “right” answers from an intellectual place, but not really know. So, skeptical thought streams are being perceived along with some thought streams of insecurity in maybe not having the terminology correct. ; )
These sound like 'normal' doubt thoughts to me. Do they have more weight than other thoughts ?

love

vince

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby mtrose » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:42 am

Hi, Vince,
Here are answers to the questions within your last letter.
Can you LOOK in current experiencing and tell what is perceived ?
Well, I guess if looking is occurring, there is no identification of what is perceived as it is just “seeing.” Any labeling of what is perceived would be a thought or concept.
Can you find an “I” anywhere in this flow?
Thank you for the exercise!! I have only tried it a bit so far and it is quite helpful. No “I,” just perceiving/sensing/noticing thought stream. I will continue to work with the exercise. : )
How do these “events” (intellectual or experiential) change your level of contentment?
I’m not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if experiencing (as in the exercise) changes my level of contentment? If so, yes, in a way. There is little or no thought stream that evaluates the experiencing as great, bad, or anything in between. Or when thoughts arise, it is just the arising of a thought. So, the experiencing is non-judging, objective and neutral. As for contentment, which i would think is a concept (?) then i can only say that this being’s thought streams consider the events of contentment because it is peaceful, according to the thought stream. (Did all that even make sense?)
What is still missing?
Hmm. Not sure what you mean, but from what I am understanding, I don’t see anything missing.
BTW, so, if “knowing” is a concept, then it appears to follow that intuition and synchronicities are no more than concepts developed in order to give meaning, special value, and prestige to the assumed following of “knowings” or connected events in order to feed the ego. When in actuality, the experiences are possibly just flashes of experiencing the connectedness that is always present? I guess if everything just is and just happens as experiencing, then everything in life could be considered synchronicity? And I suppose that last several sentences are my attempt to make it a concept again? : /
Do the doubt thoughts have more weight than other thoughts?
No, they are about the same or less.
This is like learning a new language! Lol
Thank you!
mtrose

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:40 am

G'day mt.
Here are answers to the questions within your last letter.
Hmm, ok, i don't want answers (there are none, really) What i want is the labels that arise when you observe what i point at. (ouch, that came across as a bit harsh (my story))
Let's clarify the agenda here... What is it that you want from this interchange ?
i see (imagine) that you are definitely awake to the difference between what is real and what is concept.
Without a doubt (here), you understand the true nature of the Self.
You recognize as projection, that which is commonly referred to as, 'not you'.

i guide here because it provides me with a daily focus (reminder ?) on what is 'real'.
i 'get it', that this is probably what this exchange is about.

Do you imagine that the story behind the squiggles on your screen, is in possession of something that you don't have ?
Can you LOOK in current experiencing and tell what is perceived ?
Well, I guess if looking is occurring, there is no identification of what is perceived as it is just “seeing.” Any labeling of what is perceived would be a thought or concept.
i suppose i should have said; "Would you look...
..and of course the communication of what was perceived would be thought/concept. How else could it be communicated ?
You said "Intellectually i know there is just perceiving—because of the memory of the flash experiences." ..and i was wanting a current update. What exists NOW.
How do these “events” (intellectual or experiential) change your level of contentment?
Here, i was asking 'How is your life-ing different since those experiences ?'
this being’s thought streams consider the events of contentment because it is peaceful, according to the thought stream. (Did all that even make sense?)
Yes, sensible.
Do you ever 'lose it' ? Get angry, frustrated ?
then it appears to follow that intuition and synchronicities are no more than concepts developed in order to give meaning, special value, and prestige to the assumed following of “knowings” or connected events in order to feed the ego.
That rings 'true' for me too. We can still enjoy Santa Clause even though we know he is pretend.
This is like learning a new language!
Yes, our current language struggles to be adequate.
The unspoken agreement, that when i say "you" or "me" etc that we are referring to something different to the 'normal'. Amazing that communication happens at all. WonderFull.


vince

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby mtrose » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:49 am

Hi, Vince,

“What is it that you want from this interchange? i see (imagine) that you are definitely awake to the difference between what is real and what is concept.
Without a doubt (here), you understand the true nature of the Self.
You recognize as projection, that which is commonly referred to as, 'not you'.”

Originally, my hope was for a confirmed realization of no-self. I’m seeing that wanting confirmation is doubting thought stream and story. From our dialoguing, there is more of an awareness of thoughts and story overlaying perception in daily life (more below), and some insecurity thought streaming about communicating intelligently with you using accurate wording.

So, what do I presently want? At this point, I’m not sure. Lol. There is more awareness of perceiving sensations and thoughts since our dialoguing has started. Are you seeing any other beliefs or assumptions or misconceptions that can be addressed?

Do you imagine that the story behind the squiggles on your screen, is in possession of something that you don’t have?

Good question! There is a realization of story about all sorts of “interactions with ‘others’”—including this one-as being needed to see or realize or whatever—big stories of not enough, etc.

Looking at current experiencing, tell what is perceived.

Current life experiencing example—This evening, I gave a massage and there was a more significant noticing of such sensations as: seeing and feeling hands moving, hearing client speaking, sensing pulsing, seeing and feeling hands relocating, sensing no pulsing, seeing and feeling hands remaining in position despite thought streaming questioning “how long are they going to stay there? They ought to hurry up…”, thoughts streaming on making a story of what is occurring, thoughts reminding that storymaking is occurring, thoughts to refocus on perceiving, hearing music, thoughts questioning value of particular music selections, etc.

What was wonderFULL to “me” was that things were occurring in the bodywork that don’t usually occur so strongly—out of my “normal” range of experience as a massage therapist. As there was experiencing of waves of pulsing and stillness along with the hearing of the client’s report on changing levels of pain, i was able to notice and recognize thoughts surfacing that were attempting to “figure out” and “reason” as to what was happening—along with thoughts of needing to ask others for confirmation of some sort of story of what could have been happening. And, there were thoughts to just let it be and be done with having to have a story or find someone to provide a story.

How is your life-ing different since those experiences?

All the above description along with other recent experiences (mainly involving the noticing of storymaking) reflect my life-ing being different –since previous experiences and LU dialoguing. i also notice a “letting go” of situations—it isn’t as personal because “i” am just experiencing/perceiving and whatever is going to happen is going to happen. So, there is a sensing of increasing thoughts of trusting life. Yay!

Do you ever lose it? Get angry? Frustrated?

Yes, I sometimes lose my patience, get angry and frustrated. So, how do you explain what is going on there? Is that just deep conditioning?

Which brings up one question that continues to surface—Where is “intent” or (Nisargadatta’s) “earnestness” in all of this? It is confusing to me as in one sense “i” am experiencing/sensing, but “i” am not the thoughts—so how can there be any intention or earnestness unless it comes as part of the thought stream? Yes, there seems to be earnestness in “my” situation, but i can’t say that “i” had anything to do with it—it just seems to be there like the presence/lack of presence of any other inclination. There is a seeking or drawing to deepen in consciousness or awareness. i can say “i want to grow” and i can easily identify with the claim as my own, but is it?

Overall, there is more of some sense of clarity from our dialoguing and less of a sense of something lacking. Thank you!
mtrose

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:53 am

Good morning mt.
Originally, my hope was for a confirmed realization of no-self.
You certainly have that from me.
So, what do I presently want? At this point, I’m not sure.
That's an 'OK' place to be. It's probably good to keep that question alive.
and some insecurity thought streaming about communicating intelligently with you using accurate wording.
yes, that's an unnecessary story.
Are you seeing any other beliefs or assumptions or misconceptions that can be addressed?
Nothing jumps out at me, but that is what this process is about. If the're there, we'll flush them out and slay them. i will invite other guides to look for any of that stuff.
There is a realization of story about all sorts of “interactions with ‘others’”
So what happens (experientially) when one of these stories is recognized ? Is there a process you go through ? Are there favorite thoughts that come and visit when this happens ?
thoughts streaming on making a story of what is occurring,
When this happens, does the thought stream block out the awareness of the raw direct experiencing ? ...or do they become just another sensation in the landscape of current happenings ? (or something else)
Yes, I sometimes lose my patience, get angry and frustrated. So, how do you explain what is going on there? Is that just deep conditioning?
Of course, it's the mind asking for an explanation. Can it be satisfied with thoughts as an answer ?
Conditioning is the slightly useful story that i use here.
Mostly, where i once readily succumbed to frustration when 'things didn't go right', which would lead immediately inot anger, now there is a good humored recognition that it once would have snagged me, and an almost "ho hum.."
But having said that there are still a couple of dependent conditions that trigger an explosion of anger. Mind you, they are generally gone within a few minutes, but still...
Of course, there is nothing to do but watch and wait to see if the 'message' ever actually surfaces. (or if it even needs to)
So, there is a sensing of increasing thoughts of trusting life. Yay!
Excellent. Of course, there is not actually anything else that you could do, anyway. THIS IS IT !
Which brings up one question that continues to surface—Where is “intent” or (Nisargadatta’s) “earnestness” in all of this?
..good story to amuse yourself with.
Are there other stories hanging off that one about the repercussions of not being earnest ?
Which brings up one question that continues to surface—Where is “intent” or (Nisargadatta’s) “earnestness” in all of this? It is confusing to me as in one sense “i” am experiencing/sensing, but “i” am not the thoughts—so how can there be any intention or earnestness unless it comes as part of the thought stream? Yes, there seems to be earnestness in “my” situation, but i can’t say that “i” had anything to do with it—it just seems to be there like the presence/lack of presence of any other inclination. There is a seeking or drawing to deepen in consciousness or awareness. i can say “i want to grow” and i can easily identify with the claim as my own, but is it?
Firstly, let me say that i know what you mean. i have on several occasions, gone looking for 'more'... (after waking up)
Tell me, what is the emotion when you start to read what you said here.


love

vince

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Re: A friend suggested I request vince for direct inquiry?

Postby mtrose » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:00 am

Hi, Vince,

Your post of today seems easier for me to reply to than recent ones for some reason.

<There is a realization of story about all sorts of “interactions with ‘others’”>
So what happens (experientially) when one of these stories is recognized?

When a story is recognized, there is a sort of “aha!” moment and the thoughts/story seem to dissolve.

Is there a process you go through?

Lately, the sense of story seems to just pop up and then the “aha” occurs and the thoughts/story drop. In the past or in what seem to be more emotionally charged situations, focus seems to go to alert in seeing what specifically triggered the strong feelings. So there is a noticing of what is being physically felt and what thoughts occur. There is a check in to see if there is some sort of story or projection on my part OR there might be a checking with some sort of clarity questions like “Is that actually true?” Usually journaling helps get the emotionally charged experiences out on paper/computer to where it is easier to see triggers and story—I can then re-read it and it sort of makes the experience less personal and more objective.

Are there favorite thoughts that come and visit when this happens?

Recent experiences seem to reflect such thoughts as “fear of being misunderstood,” “not being able to express thoughts well enough,” “not wanting conflict” (in more emotionally charged situations), and “a desire to be ‘nice’ and loving, ”

<Thoughts streaming on making a story of what is occurring>
When this happens, does the thought stream block out the awareness of the raw direct experiencing? Or do they become just another sensation in the landscape of current happenings? Or something else?

In the experience presented last night, the thought stream did not block out the raw direct experiencing at all. The recognition of story was pretty much immediate and dropped—with “aha” thoughts. Massage work seems to be significant in my spiritual “seeking.” It was one activity/experience where I have been able to supposedly “let go” and “allow” the hands to move as they desire, experience sensations of hands and my body, and observe what is happening without so much expectation. It is a sort of surrender to what is happening—even though I can see that “surrender” isn’t the actual experience—but more of an awareness of sensation—and more and more a dropping of the story that I am “allowing.”

“Tell me, what is the emotion when you start to read what you said here.” (regarding intent and earnestness)

Actually in reading what i said, not much if any emotion appears to be present. Intent and earnestness just seem to be experiences or sensations—just like anger or passion or fear—or even seeking! But not qualities that one actually consciously pursues—they just happen and are perceived or sensed. And that seems rather intriguing to me, but not an issue. If intent or earnestness occurs, ok. If not, ok. : ) Life is happening with noticing being the underlying constant.

Thank you!
mtrose


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