The last step...

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RonWhitaker
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The last step...

Postby RonWhitaker » Thu May 28, 2015 9:42 am

I have been through depression while raising two children, loss of daughter to cancer, survivor of same cancer, loss of second wife who helped raise the children, open heart surgery. All this while practicing TM and then Self-Inquiry. Assisted out of depression with therapy I stand in a good place in much peace and acceptance of life. I found this site referenced on Quora.
I have been coasting in a good place waiting for the last step, not knowing where to turn. My time with a guru has passed, retreats have no pull, spiritual readings have no interest. Meditation varies from the usual noise to extreme bliss.

One consern of taking the wrong step is a kundalini awakening, my assumption, that has occurred. Many years ago I started feeling energy in the body and started a full body twitch. At times I would spend nights twitching ievery 3-10 seconds four 5-8 hours at night. This has mainly finished but twitching still occurs at times.

I look forward to discussions,

Ron

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RonWhitaker
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Re: The last step...

Postby RonWhitaker » Fri May 29, 2015 12:16 pm

Waking this morning, feeling the sleep in the body slowly lifting. It's such a gentle softness like cotton balls. The muscle in right leg must have been torn or stretched yesterday lifting tires for winter to summer change. The feelings and sensations in the body are direct experience, undeniable. Hands rub face skin and muscles, undeniable and direct. Lazy soft emotions float in body, direct experience undeniable and real.

But where does this message of my body, my leg pain, my gentle emotions come from. "My" is not a direct experience. Leg is attached to body, this body, but my leg pain is not a direct experience. Leg pain is direct experience but not "my".

I have been meditating since 1973 that almost 42 years and I'm still associated with my body. In fact the last 20 plus years has been with Ramana Maharshi's Self-Inquiry and I'm still associated with this body.

Where does the concept of mine, me, I, my come from? How is it still active?

I can see it is a belief learned, a concept adopted but it is still active and alive.

I need a guide!


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codyjdennis
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Re: The last step...

Postby codyjdennis » Sat May 30, 2015 7:15 am

Hi Ron,
My name is Cody and I would be happy to be your guide if you are alright with that :).

Best,
Cody
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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RonWhitaker
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Re: The last step...

Postby RonWhitaker » Sat May 30, 2015 11:30 am

Cody

I would be very pleased.

Today's observations.

I'm now to sit in quiet meditation and have become accustom to the peace and sometimes bliss. The technique I use is Self-Inquiry, holding the "I", investigating "Who Am I"? Years of investigation and I believe correct meditation has uncovered many false belief on behaviours and thinking patterns. But the root has not been uncovered. Yes maybe confused with the underlying peace of pure being, a solid and now real experience for me, I experience peace, I, me, my, mine.

Now to meditation,

Thanks,

Ron


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Re: The last step...

Postby codyjdennis » Sat May 30, 2015 5:45 pm

Great :)

Before we start there is just a few technical things to get out of the way.

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html
6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Let me know if you agree to the above. Then continue reading my response below.


___________

I'm glad to hear meditation has helped you over the years remove false beliefs and has allowed you to experience peace and bliss. However, this is not what we are concerned with here. What we are focused on here is what is this "I" that meditates in the first place. That says "I have become accustom to the peace and sometimes bliss".

Everything rides on that "I". If you notice we're always referencing this "I". I breathe. I speak. I read. I have to go to work."

What I am going to end this post with is really the only question that need be asked if you're willing to notice the simplicity of this.

Look in your experience right now. Take attention to you five senses. To Look you do not need to reference thought, If anything just disregard it for right now.

Where is this "self", "I" without referencing thought? Where is "Ron"? Does this self actually exist in your experience?

or

is all of it just a thought?
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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RonWhitaker
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Re: The last step...

Postby RonWhitaker » Sat May 30, 2015 10:47 pm



6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
This doesn't link, can't find topic.


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codyjdennis
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Re: The last step...

Postby codyjdennis » Sat May 30, 2015 10:55 pm

The link is just for the thing you just did actually. So you just just disregard the link.
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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RonWhitaker
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Re: The last step...

Postby RonWhitaker » Sat May 30, 2015 11:12 pm

Cody

I have read and agree.

I spend some time with your question attempting to be solely from experience.

When I sit quiet and look, feel, experience thoughts can be ignored and with that "Ron" and "I" can be seen as thoughts and memories.

But (and I have great difficulty keeping from using meditation terms but still coming from experience)

There is a core, a presence, an aliveness.

Is this breathing, hearing, feeling, smelling etc, just what is being called "I".

There is something alive there!

Thanks for your time,
Ron




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codyjdennis
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Re: The last step...

Postby codyjdennis » Sun May 31, 2015 1:43 am

There is something "alive" here. But I am here to show you that even calling it any of that is not true. Those are thoughts as well.

I'm not trying to say do not use them, but do you notice that they are just more labels on top of raw experience.
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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RonWhitaker
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Re: The last step...

Postby RonWhitaker » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:00 am

Cody

I have spent much time with this today. Thank goodness there was some distractions.

This morning started with some very quiet meditation, the kind where emptiness prevails. I know that is not the process used here but necessary for me. That emptiness is raw experience almost unlabelled. Almost because I experience it.

Throughout the day observation and thinking on the subject continued. Yes, I know thinking is not the answer.

Intellectually I think what is being said is primarily there is raw experience. Fundamentally that is all there is, full stop. Now what we human have learned to do is create meaning from raw experience. Part of the creation is "I". All thought is a creation of mind, including thinking we are separate humans. This dissertation is just a creation. Nothing is real except raw experience.

That's thinking, labelling. Getting back to basics unfortunately labelling is still occurring. I still experience I.

Ron


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RonWhitaker
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Re: The last step...

Postby RonWhitaker » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:07 pm

Cody

This morning reading of Gateless_Gatecrashers PDF revealed this:

Ilona: Eric, I’m delighted that seeing happened for you! We just need to go through a couple of bits before I let you go. The sense of something is “I am”. It’s the sense of being, it’s unshakeable and yes, it is always here now. When you close your eyes it can be felt clearly. It’s not going to go away.

We need to spend time here.

I have an expectation from years of reading meditation junk of a perception change, and experience of unity, experience of oneness. Been trying to push it off for years.

As Ilona says this sense of being is not going away. The sense "I Am" is not going away.

But the Ron - I has been slowly slipping away from so much therapy from depression and so much meditation. The vail getting thinner over time. This Ron-I is not real, only conditioned life.

Still in confusion.


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codyjdennis
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Re: The last step...

Postby codyjdennis » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:01 am

Ron,
I apologize if this is long, just bear with me.

As you say, "Ron-I is not real only conditioned life." That's really beautiful.

The top reason I ask you to look in your present experience is because when you really really take a look at your experience you will never find a Ron, an I, or a self. There is no "I" that sees this because it isn't there in the first place.

When you quoted Ilona and her client it can appear like someone sees because due to the confines of language and talking over the Internet we have to use I, me. But really the seeing is that there isn't an I in the first place. There is none. It is not that there isn't something here that exists, it's just that the you, that you think your are is not. Has never been, and never will be. A speck of dust is literally more real than a self.

As far as the I am. It's possible that it may never go away. But that sense, is not a thought. It's experiential. And then we attach thoughts to it. Mainly self thoughts.

-------

As far as the Ron slipping away, that sounds great.
However, how can something that is not real in the first place slip away? At most the seeming appearance can loosen. But something that is imaginary doesn't really slip away, it's seen to be what it is, imaginary. Same as Santa Claus. Santa does not disappear each year during the holidays. We just know he's not actually real. Same exact thing.
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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codyjdennis
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Re: The last step...

Postby codyjdennis » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:11 am

Sorry I didn't see your other response. Yes there is only raw experience and then labeling on top of it. Labeling is not bad, we just need to see that it's made up (as you're starting to see).

A way we could put it is thinking is an aspect of the entirety of your experience. Just like smelling is. But there is Zero truth in it and it doesn't really tell us anything about what this is. That's why it's a tool.

This is why we Look in our experience because this experience is all there is. The answer, as you say, is not in thinking. It's in looking at your experience. The either IS or is not a self in experience. And it must exist outside of thinking "I". Do you find such a thing? Have you ever found it?
Isn't it interesting that you ways have to reference another thought for "yourself".
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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RonWhitaker
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Re: The last step...

Postby RonWhitaker » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:37 am

Cody

Not sure where things are so this is just a summary:

- there is experience of pure being, better words than I am
- pure being is always present and strong when looking in
- present raw experience contains no thought
- present raw experience contains only sense experience
- emotion are not present raw experience but generated like thoughts are generated
- I is a thought
- Ron is a thought
- a thought is a construct of mind
- due to years of experience present raw experience is readily available without attention to thought
- thoughts are things.

I is still connected - I still experience my self as Ron.


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codyjdennis
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Re: The last step...

Postby codyjdennis » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:23 pm

I is still connected - I still experience my self as Ron.
Let me ask you this..is this Ron a feeling or are you saying that the thought of Ron still appears?
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.


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