Agorn is requesting a guide

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agorn
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Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby agorn » Wed May 27, 2015 9:46 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I got introduced to dzogchen meditation and non duality about three months ago and heard about LU in a retreat video by Jackson Peterson

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry? I did vipassana meditation before and now dzogchen. By meditating I realized that the constant stream of thoughts is just happening, filled up alot with stories and ideas of ego-concept, attachment and desire. The understanding of no-self is there, but still on a conceptual level, it hasn't switched to the knowing yet.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?
I don't know if I expect anything, the curiosity of being guided and by that experiencing a switch in understanding is what brought me here.

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Kevalino
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby Kevalino » Wed May 27, 2015 10:21 pm

Hello Agorn,

Welcome to LU. I am happy to serve as your guide. Perhaps you can start by sharing a bit more about yourself before we get started.

I appreciate the clarity around expectations and your natural curiosity. Interest, lightness/playfulness and curiosity can be very helpful as we look together! Regarding expectations, it sounds like there's an expectation or desire around non-conceptual seeing? If so, please let me know what you think this will look or feel like?

Kevalino

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agorn
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby agorn » Fri May 29, 2015 7:41 am

Hi kevalino,

Thank u so much for your offer to serve me as a guid and sorry for the
Delay here, currently I'm participating in a workshop and did not get the chance
To check the LU website.

Regarding myself, hmm, I'm an artist and have been on a "spiritual path"
for some time now. As I wrote before, there are experiences with meditation(dzogchen, vipassan),
and Tantra. I came across non-duality about half a year ago and got very
curious and contemplative on that. It all, in combination with dzogchen, made
sense and so I found the LU.

About the expectation or desire of non-dualistic seeing I have to say,
that I don't know what to expect. I guess it is more about a knowing on an experiential
level, emediate recognition so to say.
The attachment to and conceptualization of "l" or ego are strong and active.
I would like to cut through that.

A.

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Kevalino
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby Kevalino » Fri May 29, 2015 10:54 pm

Hello Agorn,

It's nice to hear about your experience with dzogchen, vipassana, tantra and non-duality. I'm familiar with these teachings and have found them very beneficial myself!

For now, though, please put aside all your previous study and reading during this inquiry. They can become a hindrance to looking in a simple and fresh way, especially if they are used to filter or compare what we'll be exploring together. I'm much more interested in what you know and experience for yourself :)
I don't know what to expect. I guess it is more about a knowing on an experiential
level, emediate recognition so to say.
Good to see you discerning the difference between knowing on an intellectual and experiential basis. The two are profoundly different. During this investigation, please stick to what you are actually experiencing.
The attachment to and conceptualization of "l" or ego are strong and active. I would like to cut through that.
See if it's possible to suspend all expectations and simply notice that all expectations are fundamentally based on an "I" (I would like to cut through that, I would like to know, etc). We'll be examining this 'I' directly.

Please review these guidelines and confirm your agreement. This will assist us both.

1. Post at least once a day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Only answer from direct personal experience (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Kevalino

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agorn
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby agorn » Sat May 30, 2015 9:24 pm

Hello kevalion,

Will do my best to clear my awareness of all expectations andexperience things as they are.
I read the guidelines and will follow through on those. There's a workshop I'm participating, that will end tomorrow
Night, that's why the delay. From tomorrow on I will pos on a daily basis.

A.

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Kevalino
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby Kevalino » Sun May 31, 2015 4:15 am

Ok,thank you for the update!

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agorn
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby agorn » Sun May 31, 2015 6:00 am

You are welcome.
A.

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Kevalino
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby Kevalino » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:23 am

Hi Agorn,

Just checking in. Are you still interested in doing this?

Kevalino

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agorn
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby agorn » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:17 pm

Hi kevalino,

Yes I'm definitely interested. I have problems with the website
since I'm using a smartphone, but let's go on.

Agorn

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Kevalino
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby Kevalino » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:36 pm

Hello Agorn,

Welcome back. I'd like to start by making sure you thoroughly understand direct experience (what is actually happening). It is the foundation for how we look at everything throughout this inquiry.

Please take your time with this exercise. Use a piece of fruit (preferably one you can smell) and place it a short distance away from you. Just enough so you can see it well, but cannot smell it. What is it like to think about eating that piece of fruit? What are you noticing?

Now, take your time to slowly eat the fruit. First, seeing it with your eyes and noticing the color and shape. Hold it to the light and notice any shadows, curves, etc. Pick it up and feel the texture and sensations in your hands or anywhere else in the body. Smell the fruit and notice what happens. Then, eat the fruit and notice what that is like.

What did you discover? How were the two experiences different?

Kevalino

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agorn
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby agorn » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:54 am

Hi kevalino,
Yes I understand what you mean by direct experience. For this exercise I choose
to use an orange. By putting it infront of me and looking at it, I notice a rising of mental images.
Thoughts come up about the taste of this fruit, it's smell, the sensation of the fruit juice.
Water starts running in my mouth with on going thoughts of past moments eating such a fruit,
The quality of those thoughts are cloudy and not very clear.
By taking the Orange in my hand and looking at it from close, I notice the intensity of the colour, colour changes, pores, wrinkles, the reflection of light and shady areas on its surface.
Feelings of cool temperature and weight of this"object" appear in the palm of my hand, as well as its solidity.
Smelling the Orange is followed by a fresh, slightly sharp sensation in the nose and down my throat,
also noticing a change of temperature in these areas due to breath.
Peeling the fruit increases the sense of a somewhat sour smell, tickeling in the nose.
After parting the fruit and putting one piece in my mouth, I recognize it's size, how it fills up my mouth, the slight coldness
of this piece. Chewing it, I feel the fruit juice running out of this piece in my mouth, sensing a sweet taste in different areasof the mouth and throat. Kind of a satisfactory feeling is noticeable in the body, in the solar plexus area, followed by a deep breath and a feeling of relaxation, most noticeable in the limbs. A soft , tickeling flow of energy in arms, hands, legs and feet.

What I noticed during the two exercises, was that only imagining, would cause a flow of thoughts, followed by some
Feelings, not very intense though compared to the direct experience.
The main difference seems to be the full spectrum of bodily reactions during the moment of experience. By just looking at the fruit and imagining it appears to be more shallow and a construction of "how it would be". While just thinking or
Imagining, the experience of the moment, tasting, feeling, smelling, seeing had a more direct and fulfilling quality, a deeper awareness of that what is happening so to say.

Agorn

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Kevalino
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby Kevalino » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:39 pm

Hi Agorn,

You got it! Thank you for the most detailed and clearest expression of this exercise that I've read so far :)

OK, let's keep going. There is no "you." In no way, shape or form has there ever been a "you," nor will there ever be. What comes up for you?

Kevalino

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agorn
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby agorn » Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:35 am

Hi kevalino,

What comes up in the first place is a contradiction on an ego level.
Looking at it this way makes the ego or "me" say NO, as it seems so simple.
The attachment to identification through personal history, stories, ideals and so forth creates a level of strong bonding and holding on. Especially in moments of struggle, painful experiences or issues within relationships it appears to be confronting. The attachement to this idea of "I" creates a feeling of separation between inside(subject or "me") and outside(the object or "they, it")
It appears to be difficult to get beyond this thought pattern.

Agorn

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agorn
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby agorn » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:28 am

Hi kevalino,

What comes up in the first place is a contradiction on an ego level.
Looking at it this way makes the ego or "me" say NO, as it seems so simple.
The attachment to identification through personal history, stories, ideals and so forth creates a level of strong bonding and holding on. Especially in moments of struggle, painful experiences or issues within relationships it appears to be confronting. The attachement to this idea of "I" creates a feeling of separation between inside(subject or "me") and outside(the object or "they, it")
It appears to be difficult to get beyond this thought pattern.

Agorn

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Kevalino
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Re: Agorn is requesting a guide

Postby Kevalino » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:01 am

Hello Agorn,
Looking at it this way makes the ego or "me" say NO, as it seems so simple.
When you say "the ego" or "me," what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe this in detail. Does it have a shape, size, quality? What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?"
The attachment to identification through personal history, stories, ideals and so forth creates a level of strong bonding and holding on.
Nice work noticing the history, story, ideals, etc. The sense of self solidifies through thoughts, stories, habits, beliefs, opinions, so it's good that you're noticing them. What is attachment in direct experience? Sensations? Thoughts? Something else?
The attachement to this idea of "I" creates a feeling of separation between inside(subject or "me") and outside(the object or "they, it")
You have a great opportunity here. Is there really a boundary between inside and outside that you can locate? Close your eyes and explore this feeling in direct experience. Is the feeling happening inside or outside? You can do the same with sound? Is sound arising inside or outside?
It appears to be difficult to get beyond this thought pattern.
No worries. We'll explore thoughts soon.


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