Need help to take the plunge :)

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Christopher
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Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Fri May 01, 2015 5:47 pm

Hello!

My name is Christopher. I'm looking for assistance in sustained push I think necessary to clearly break through to the absolute direct experience of no-I. I've been meditating on and off for about 15 years, experimenting with various states of consciousness that are novel amidst this pursuit....all the while slowly honing in on what I now know is the core pursuit.....what all those "fingers" have been pointing at for all these years: the source of awareness......the sea within which this sand castle of my sense of self will soon dissolve, hopefully :) I see the tide has been getting closer and closer all these years, and now its nibbling at the foundation. I just need some help, I feel, to not shy away from submerging the whole artifact into the waves. Can anyone help me? I'm willing!

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sat May 02, 2015 1:03 am

Sorry! I need to amend the above post. All the flowery metaphors, just forget that crap. Here it is....I feel I am very close, to seeing things as they are...directly. But there is fear...and, of course, distraction...and the maddening thinking about this and self...always reinforcing self with thoughts upon thoughts upon thoughts...so much energy, planning, fantasizing about what I'm donna do or say if so-and-so happens. I just want to see clearly...that's all. I don't care if there's no band....no bright, multi-colored, fractalizing lights.....no flowers falling from the sky....no endless euphoric bliss. I don't care if I get hit by a bus in the very next instant, I just want to see through the crap.....the sludge....the fog...if only for an moment. Well...I mean, I hope I don't get hit by a bus the very next instant....you know what I mean.

This is it...and I know it. I was waiting for a response from a possible guide and took the suggestion and started reading Gateless Gatecrashers......Philip and Elena's conversation....and something in me absolutely jumped in alarm and eagerness and seriousness. It essentially told me to cut the crap.....cut the poetic bullshit....and come in here right now and say what I want, clear and straight up.

I want clear seeing, straight up. I want to finally....finally, finally, finally....drop the pretense...even if I can only drop it a little bit, in the beginning and then takes however long it takes to follow through....in dropping the pretense completely and totally. I just want to see things for what they really are...without window dressing....without obscuration. To be "in touch with reality"...only for real...not just as a social cliché.

Whew...sorry...I felt a powerful urgency to revise my introduction, somehow...to quit being pretentious.

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sat May 02, 2015 1:05 am

Sorry...Ilona, I meant :) Ok, I'll shut up now and patiently wait

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Freddi
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Freddi » Sat May 02, 2015 12:16 pm

Hi Christopher, Welcome to LU!

This is Fred from France. Very nice to meet you.

A few quick guidelines: look to post daily/regularly or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

Also, our disclaimer and a short video too.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin...

First, consider this this from your initial post:
I want clear seeing, straight up.
and
I just want to see things for what they really are...without window dressing....without obscuration. To be "in touch with reality"...only for real...not just as a social cliché.
How do you KNOW you are not seeing clearly right now?
How do you KNOW you are not seeing things for what they really are?
How do you KNOW you are not already and always in touch with reality?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sat May 02, 2015 12:51 pm

Good morning, Freddi :) Thank you so much for assisting me! Yes, I confirm that I have read the guidelines, watched the video and read the disclaimer. I agree to them all....and I and thrilled to agree to have you as my guide. I'll answer you questions to the best of my ability now
How do you KNOW you are not seeing clearly right now?
I don't know exactly how, really....it's an impression...a strong impression..that things are muddy and unclear. It feels like a flickering obscuration in my head...like a distortion or flickering of a flame which seems to give rise to thoughts. And when I'm thinking thoughts...or maybe identified with them....I become my thoughts and everything else around me gets dim, or something like that....so life is seen through this filter of flickering shadow-play that seems to obscure it.
How do you KNOW you are not seeing things for what they really are?
Stemming from the previous answer, it seems...or there is a strong impression...that when I'm wrapped up in thoughts....or identified with them....the thoughts become the only thing that are seen...and "reality"...or "the way things really are" get fuzzy, murky and smudgy, creating this lost feeling..or feeling of being out of touch with reality, so to speak.
How do you KNOW you are not already and always in touch with reality?
Oops! I think I rushed ahead and answered the this question in the answer to your last question, at least in part. I have to confess that, right now, I've simply come to believe that this condition of seeing and feeling things around me being intermittently broken up by thinking and getting identified in thoughts leading to thoughts leading to thoughts....well, I just assumed that this condition is messed up.....out of touch. I'm open to the possibility that there is some awareness or some element of consciousness that is always in touch with reality and always sees things for what they really are and always sees clearly....but that element doesn't seem to be a part of my consistent direct experience.

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Freddi
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Freddi » Sat May 02, 2015 5:02 pm

Hi Christopher,

For the purpose of this enquiry, I would like you to take a good look into your direct experience for the answers. Just what is given by the five senses. Sure we can acknowledge thoughts passing, but their content is not direct experiences, it’s just stories, fiction. OK?

When you receive a post from me, really take your time to consider the questions I am asking you. Contemplate them, let them percolate. There is no rush. Scan what is alive, here and now, and let me have what comes up. Don’t aim to respond too quickly. A quick reply is more likely to come straight from the mind than not. And remember to answer all the questions.
I don't know exactly how, really....it's an impression...a strong impression.
Take a good look, for a moment. Describe this ‘strong impression that things are muddy and unclear’.
Take a moment to come back to your senses and observe what is here, all around you, what is seen, felt, touched, heard.
Is this happening of the moment muddy and unclear?
Does this impression have physical qualities? Can you describe them?
Is it a thought?
it seems...or there is a strong impression...that when I'm wrapped up in thoughts....or identified with them....the thoughts become the only thing that are seen..
Again, scan only what is given in direct experience.
What is that ‘I’ that gets wrapped up in thoughts?
What is that ‘I’ that identifies with thoughts?
Can you describe it, without relying on thoughts?
I'm open to the possibility that there is some awareness or some element of consciousness that is always in touch with reality and always sees things for what they really are and always sees clearly....but that element doesn't seem to be a part of my consistent direct experience.
That reads a bit like something you learned somewhere. Drop it. There is no ‘element of consciousness in touch with reality’. No such thing ;-)
You are your sole authority here. Rely only on what you SEE, here and now.
There is only this moment, this experience, so no ‘consistent direct experience’ applies, as this invites comparison, reference to memories, thought, not WHAT IS.

Bye for now,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sat May 02, 2015 6:21 pm

Ok. Thanks, Fred, for helping me to focus on the essentials of what's going on. I want to take my time with this...I don't want to miss anything. "No stone unturned", so to speak. I'll address each grouping of questions separately in individual posts, if that's ok with you.
Is this happening of the moment muddy and unclear? {/quote]

After looking closely, what I see is that the happening of the moment is crystal clear...which is amazing. The closer I look, the clearer it becomes. This I have seen without a shadow of doubt, over several hours this morning.
Does this impression have physical qualities? Can you describe them?
Right now, looking out at the trees, the sky is crystal clear and blue. The trees a resplendent green with flickering lights and shadows. I can feel spit in my mouth...tongue behind my teeth. There's a slight pressure around my head. There's a light buzzing sensation over my skin in varying degrees. There's pressure on the balls of my feet where they are touching the carpet. There's the seat under my bottom and the back rest against my back. I hear my finger tippy tapping on the keyboard...I hear some birds outside the window and a gas powered leaf blower or weed eater down the street...some other droning, ambient sound that I don't know what it is underneath all the other sounds.

Is it a thought?
No, this happening of the moment is definitely not a thought at all. It is something to be aware of, but is not a thought. Thoughts didn't have any part of what I was experiencing when I was looking

I'll take the next group of questions in the next post.

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sat May 02, 2015 6:23 pm

Woops! I messed up the quoting thing...sorry about that :)

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sat May 02, 2015 6:35 pm

What is that ‘I’ that gets wrapped up in thoughts?
What is that ‘I’ that identifies with thoughts?
It's thoughts! It's thoughts that get wrapped up in thoughts! How is that possible? Where do they come from? I don't know, but I can see that it's thoughts bouncing back and forth off of one another. A thought come in from god-knows-where...and then that thoughts spawn other thoughts which spawn other thoughts and the thoughts have a quality that calls themselves "me".....or "I" "I" is thoughts reflecting on thoughts...but there's nothing there! Where do they come from? They come out of the blue.....out of nowhere. That is very creepy...but kinda funny too LOL!
Can you describe it, without relying on thoughts?


No, I don't think I can. Ha, ha! So funny doing this while I"m typing, for some reason. No, I don't think I can describe it without relying on thoughts. Right now, I'm "hearing" the words of thoughts as I'm typing now....there's a thinking machine up there that's rapidly attaching words to things

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sat May 02, 2015 6:42 pm

That reads a bit like something you learned somewhere. Drop it. There is no ‘element of consciousness in touch with reality’. No such thing ;-)
You are your sole authority here. Rely only on what you SEE, here and now.
There is only this moment, this experience, so no ‘consistent direct experience’ applies, as this invites comparison, reference to memories, thought, not WHAT IS.

Bye for now,

Fred
Ok, got it....no outside sources, only evidence of direct experience allowed. I agree :)

Talk soon!

Chris

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Freddi
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Freddi » Sun May 03, 2015 8:55 am

Hi Chris,

These two questions:
- Does this impression have physical qualities? Can you describe them?
- Is it a thought?

Were a reference to your words « I have a strong impression that things are muddy and unclear ».
Look now. Is that impression here? How does it manifest? Can you describe it or is it a thought?

Right now, looking out at the trees, the sky is crystal clear and blue. The trees a resplendent green with flickering lights and shadows. I can feel spit in my mouth...tongue behind my teeth. There's a slight pressure around my head. There's a light buzzing sensation over my skin in varying degrees. There's pressure on the balls of my feet where they are touching the carpet. There's the seat under my bottom and the back rest against my back. I hear my finger tippy tapping on the keyboard...I hear some birds outside the window and a gas powered leaf blower or weed eater down the street...some other droning, ambient sound that I don't know what it is underneath all the other sounds.
Thank you for this slice of direct experience. Now take another look and SEE just how many labels and interpretative descriptions are applied, constantly. Bring your attention to the shapes, sizes, colours, movements.
Copy the text and underline (or colour) the interpretations (especially the occurrences of « my »).
Try to revisit without any personal pronoun. Let me know which feels true or truer.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sun May 03, 2015 1:22 pm

Hi Fred!

Good to be back this morning. I'll get right to your questions. First, let me say that yesterday was kind a magnificent day of looking and seeing....with dawning realization so clear and what's been so obvious, that I, at times, yelled out in joy and awe, laughing my head off in wonder. You helped me arrive there, and I am grateful :)

Ok...to your questions...
Look now. Is that impression here? How does it manifest? Can you describe it or is it a thought?
It is not here now, no....or rather, there is a flickering yes, as words are accessed to describe and type, as I'm doing now. So, there is a label associated with thinking...that being in thought is a state of being "muddy and unclear"...it is a label attached to the act of thinking thoughts. And a judgy one at that :) So, the impression of being "unclear and muddy".....is just a thought about thoughts.

Thank you for this slice of direct experience. Now take another look and SEE just how many labels and interpretative descriptions are applied, constantly. Bring your attention to the shapes, sizes, colours, movements.
Copy the text and underline (or colour) the interpretations (especially the occurrences of « my »).
Try to revisit without any personal pronoun. Let me know which feels true or truer.
Ok, here we go...descriptions in blue and personal pronouns in red

"Right now, looking out at the trees, the sky is crystal clear and blue. The trees a resplendent green with flickering lights and shadows. I can feel spit in my mouth...tongue behind my teeth. There's a slight pressure around my head. There's a light buzzing sensation over my skin in varying degrees. There's pressure on the balls of my feet where they are touching the carpet. There's the seat under my bottom and the back rest against my back. I hear my finger tippy tapping on the keyboard...I hear some birds outside the window and a gas powered leaf blower or weed eater down the street...some other droning, ambient sound that I don't know what it is underneath all the other sounds."

Wow....a lot of descriptive labels....and a lot of ownership of the experience that was experienced. Ok, here's the revisit.

"Right now, looking out at the trees, the sky is crystal clear and blue. The trees a resplendent green with flickering lights and shadows. Spit is in the mouth...tongue behind the teeth. There's a slight pressure around the head. There's a light buzzing sensation over the skin in varying degrees. There's pressure on the balls of the feet where they are touching the carpet. There's the seat under the bottom and the back rest against the back.Fingers tippy tapping on the keyboard are heard...birds outside the window and a gas powered leaf blower or weed eater down the street...some other droning, ambient sound beneath the other sounds that is unable to be associated with a label...all these are heard."

Ok, the revisit....yes, it seems truer. More direct to what was happening. I can't imagine actually talking like this during my day-to-day life :) ....but, for the purposes of trying to express more clearly what was happening in that moment, this rewrite above is more true.....but still, not The Truth. The truth was the experience itself, I see.

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sun May 03, 2015 1:30 pm

Should have put buzzing in blue.

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Freddi
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Freddi » Sun May 03, 2015 2:54 pm

Hi Chris
First, let me say that yesterday was kind a magnificent day of looking and seeing....with dawning realization so clear and what's been so obvious, that I, at times, yelled out in joy and awe, laughing my head off in wonder. You helped me arrive there, and I am grateful :)
I’m very glad to read this, Chris. Yes, it is soooo obvious and simple, it is the opposite of effort.
I thank you for your openness and readiness to look.
I can't imagine actually talking like this during my day-to-day life :)
Of course not! No one is asking you to speak any other way, personal pronouns are useful to navigate in everyday life. The intention here is to see whether there is any reality behind this « me », « my », this appropriation of experience. What do you say? Is there anything tangible, verifiable behind what you call 'I'?
what was happening in that moment, this rewrite above is more true.....but still, not The Truth. The truth was the experience itself, I see
Bingo. That’s it. There is no way to describe the Truth, to explain it. It just is, plain and simple, and never not here.

Pick an object in front of you. Say this computer screen, or a tree if you can see through a window. Take your time with this, and take a good look, below all the labels and descriptions. Let's just say that 'you' are the observer and the tree is the observed.
Can you draw lines to separate the observed and the observer?
Is the space between what we call observer and observed (a) observer or (b) observed? What about the background?
Look at the hands. Are they observed or observer?
Look at the end of your nose (if it’s long enough ;-)), is that observer or observed?
Keep looking for that observer. Can you directly experience it?

When we say ‘Chris is looking at the tree’, what is the actuality of experience? Describe what you find.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Christopher
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Re: Need help to take the plunge :)

Postby Christopher » Sun May 03, 2015 4:56 pm

Thank you for your guidance here...it has been superb. Quickly cutting to the heart of the matter :)
What do you say? Is there anything tangible, verifiable behind what you call 'I'?
No! "I" is a thought....and the thought of "I", comes and goes. Specifically, it goes when I look into the experience that is happening all around me. It's gone. And if it's gone like that...then it clearly simply doesn't exist in any tangible way. The Truth is that there is no "I" in the Truth....the pure experience. I see this very clearly!
Pick an object in front of you. Say this computer screen, or a tree if you can see through a window. Take your time with this, and take a good look, below all the labels and descriptions. Let's just say that 'you' are the observer and the tree is the observed.
Can you draw lines to separate the observed and the observer?
Is the space between what we call observer and observed (a) observer or (b) observed? What about the background?
Look at the hands. Are they observed or observer?
Look at the end of your nose (if it’s long enough ;-)), is that observer or observed?
Keep looking for that observer. Can you directly experience it?
I honestly don't know where to draw the line! I was looking at a branch from a tree outside the window just beyond where I'm sitting. The only way I could think of drawing a line was to revert to a thought process which imagined a diagram drawing of me...and then a two-way arrow pointing between me and a drawing of the tree branch...and then, where to put the line of separation...well, it could be put anywhere and it wouldn't matter....because it's a thought about a drawing, not the actual experience. Amidst the actual experience, there is not separation without thinking thoughts about the separation. Separation happens only in the thoughts about the experience...not the experience itself. The experience itself is merged all the way through, I see...there is no distinction!! In actuality, there is not distinction!

I had this funny moment yesterday when I was cooking some dinner for me and my family. I was looking at a can of non-stick cooking spray on the counter...and then had an impression to go deeper into the looking...the experience of it....and "I" disappeared amidst the experience of looking at the can. This unusual "shift" came in and the perception of me looking at the can....well, there was a shift there....like the air cleared or something. It was so intriguing that I picked up the can with my hand...and the feeling of the can in my hand....was just something incredible...I can't even describe it. I felt like a little baby picking up something for the first time. A sense of union of this perception of looking at and sensing "me" holding a "can of spray"....everything was merged together in a very awesome/strange way...and it was funny, too! For some strange reason, it was quite hilarious and awesome both together. LOL!!! I remember my mom saying once, that when I was a baby I used to laugh my head off whenever she broke heads of lettuce apart when making a salad. That crunchy sound of lettuce ripping open made me laugh and laugh and laugh. Now I remember why!!! It's faint, but I remember! Yesterday, with the can of spray had a similar funny feeling :)

No, the "observer" and the "observed" are gone in the total experience of observing. It's in the observing where Truth is...and there is something distinctly funny about it. I don't know why it's funny....but it is! :D


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