Thread for Michael

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KevinD
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Thread for Michael

Postby KevinD » Fri May 01, 2015 2:49 pm

Mickey:

Hi. I'm new here. I discovered this by 'accident '. I've been a seeker for many years, exploring many approaches. I would like a guide. It feels like I've been on the edge of something... Something obvious, but wouldn't cross the threshold for fear of being alone and the game being over ...

I'm just looking to see it clearly ....


KevinD: Hey Michael,
Man, I can relate to those feelings.
I'd like to hear a bit more about what brought you here.
Best,
Mort

Mickey:
Here's a story. Once upon a time,I discovered a book on Zen when I was 15 or so. Started meditating, thinking I'd be 'enlightened' by next week! Obviously, it didn't happen. But that set the tone for the rest of my life, in a way and I investigated many spiritual, philosophical and psychological approaches to improve my experience of life. I came to this enquiry whilst investigating 'the headless way' again. One of it's teachers so happened to be running a workshop at a place around the corner from where I live and Ilona happened to have run one there as well. The name looked interesting, so I followed my nose ....


KevinD: Hi Michael,
I am totally one of those I-want-it-all-and-I-wan-it-yesterday guys too.
Not sure if that's something specific to a few of us or part of the human condition.
I like the way you followed your nose, I'm a big believer that it can never steer you wrong.
So that nose is telling you there's a readiness to see through the illusion of self?
Beautiful.
Let me ask you to review what we're about here, and make sure you read the disclaimer carefully.
After that, I can start us a thread on the forums in a section called "The Gate" and we can get under way.
Here's a link to the Forum site which includes the description and disclaimer. Sign up and join me there.
http://liberationunleashed.com/


Mickey:
Thanks Mort. I've also worked through the app and currently reading the book. I catch glimpses ...

KevinD:
One of the admin will have to activate the account, I'll put in a request.
In the meantime, did you visit the site, and read the disclaimer?

Mickey:
Yep
Fills me with slight trepidation ....


KevinD: I know that's not a great feeling, but in my experience, it's a great sign.
Fear is a common companion to this process.
We're gonna have some fun.

KevinD: So, you've noted that you've read the disclaimer. Good.
And trepidation came up as a result of that. Also very good.
It tells me something quite likely feels threatened--perhaps an illusory self and ego--which hopefully will not survive this process.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we get right down to it, a few formalities.

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
I am not your teacher, consider me your spiritual bell hop.
I will help move your luggage and will point,--you look--until clear seeing happens.
  • In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
  • Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
  • Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts).
  • Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
  • Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
  • For the sake of your success, I ask that you be brutally honest with yourself. If you can manage that, this process will be much more efficient.
If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?


Mickey:
Not sure I have expectations exactly. I have listened to non duality teachers and they have (mostly) claimed that there is no self. I kind of rings true, but I'm not sure ...

I'm not sure how it will change me. I've 'been on the verge' I think ... several times ... and I feel fear that I'll end up feeling a sense of 'aloneness" and that all meaning might disappear. And that my relationships with those I care about might be affected.

Fear of nihilism

Ilona Ciunaite:
Hi Michael, I'm just gonna jump in the conversation and invite you to LU meeting next Saturday, in Worthing. I noticed you are in Brighton, not that far away.

Mickey:
Cool. Thank you ilona. I did spot that. If my work situation permits, I'll see whether I can. Funnily enough, I live 1 street away from where you held a workshop in Hove recently ... smile emoticon


KevinD: That's great, Michael, no expectations is a great place to start.
Can you tell me what you mean by having "been on the verge?"


Mickey:
I've had moments when I've noticed that there is only one ... a feeling like I'm disappearing as an individual and then I panic. I here the words "don't go there"


KevinD: What do you sense is saying don't go there?
Fear seems like the motivation, but what is the source of the saying?


Mickey:
It's a thought that comes with a feeling. It's hard, because I'm doing it from memory.


Mickey:
It seems as if I'm going to expand to big


KevinD: I know that feeling well, and the fear that goes along with it.
Tell me, when you hear that the self is nothing more than a thought, does that same fear come up in some fashion?
Also (housekeeping matter), could you let me know that you've read these formalities below and that you'd like me to guide you?
Thanks.


Mickey:
?Liberation Unleashed Gate on Facebook
Hi. I'm new here. I discovered this by 'accident '. I've been a seeker for many years, exploring many approaches. I would like a guide. It feels like I've been on the edge of something... Something obvious, but wouldn't cross the threshold for fear of being alone and the game being over ...



Mickey:
The link leads me to the head page


Mickey:
At this moment that thought does not lead to fear


KevinD: Sorry, Michael, here they are:
  • In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
  • Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
  • Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts).
  • Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
  • Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
  • For the sake of your success, I ask that you be brutally honest with yourself. If you can manage that, this process will be much more efficient.
If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.


Mickey:
Cool


KevinD: Thanks.
So what comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?


Mickey:
At this moment, I feel neutral about it


KevinD: You say there has been concern about expanding too big.
What do you think would happen if you did?
And perhaps more importantly, what makes you think you're not that big right now?


Mickey:
Complete annihilation. Complete obliteration. Normally, I don't feel so big. But perhaps I don't know ...


KevinD: Complete annihilation and obliteration of what?
Be specific.

And let me ask the second question more pointedly.
What evidence do you have right now that you are not that vast?

• Sent from handheld


Mickey:
Of me .... as I've known myself to be

I suppose it's a belief that I am not so vast. No evidence as such


KevinD: Of me, as I've always known myself to be.

Let's talk about that a bit.
What is it that you've known yourself to be?
Be as specific as you can.

I'd also like to know what exactly it is that appears to have known what this self is.
Let's explore them both.

Write.


Mickey:
A black man. A father. A human. A husband. A mortal. A person in society. A perceiver. A worker. A student. A seeker. A striver. A lover. A son. A cousin. A nephew. A theatre technician.

I suppose that I have known what this self is. Others seem to define me in these ways too. But now I'm beginning to see that this is memory and thoughts


KevinD: Check in deeply, Michael.
Which of those are real and which are just thoughts?


Mickey:
Being a black man in this world seems more real. There's much emotional content around it. I'm strongly identified with this body. I feel self conscious of it


Mickey:
I feel very tied to this body. It does feel like me. Wherever it goes, there I am. Cannot say the same for other bodies


KevinD: When you were born, do you think there was an innate feeling that you were black?
Or was that learned?


Mickey:
I vaguely remember not feeling that way. So definitely learned ... and encouraged by experience


KevinD: So, fair to say that being black is a believed thought?


Mickey:
Yes. But somehow it still feels more real than that


KevinD: How about all those other things you listed. Are they thoughts, or do they also feel more than that?


Mickey:
Being a father feels real. Being a son etc helps me feel connected to others


Mickey:
I just remembered that sometimes, on those occasions when I feel on the verge, I hear myself saying to myself that everything and everyone is reminding myself that I set this up in the first place ... as a kind of game. This is what I meant by 'game over'


KevinD: Yes.


KevinD: Where is this feeling of disconnection coming from?
If it's here, locate it for me. Where is it physically? What are it's characteristics (size, shape, colour, density)?
Is it static, or changing?
What is it that feels the state of disconnection?


Mickey:
Not sure


KevinD: Keep looking.


Mickey:
It's like a whole body feeling ... a nebulous space ...


KevinD: What is aware of that nebulous space?


Mickey:
I am


KevinD: I'm going to ask you to put on the proverbial diving bell and go deep for me here.
Search for evidence that this I that is spoken of is more than just a thought.
Take your time.


Mickey:
I really see that "i" is a sound, a thought... but there's a sense of something, that is always familiar, always there, that is constant ...


KevinD: What is constant?


Mickey:
The feeling of being alive


Mickey:
Of seeing feeling hearing smelling tasting thinking


KevinD: Beautiful.


KevinD: These things may feel constant, but are they not impermenent?
Lives and senses can be lost, no?


Mickey:
Yes. It's not the things that are constant, but the experiencing ... or the fact that there is experience


KevinD: What is aware of experiencing, or that there is experience?


Mickey:
This (I want to say me, but I can see it's a trap)


Mickey:
This presence


KevinD: What is this presence?


KevinD: (And there are no traps, just me pointing and you looking)


Mickey:
I can't find words. It seems that every description is a lie. It's like something is always 'on'


KevinD: Perfect. That's resonating deeply, here, Michael, thank you for your deep looking.


KevinD: As you pointed out, this presence, is constant, unchanging?


Mickey:
Yes. It's simply here


KevinD: Has it ever not been here, Michael?


Mickey:
Not from here


KevinD: Amazing.
Is there anything more than this, or is this all you are?


Mickey:
Not they I can tell right now


KevinD: Excellent.
This is it, Michael, what more did you expect?


Mickey:
I suppose I expected to be mind blown. Even though I'd read it wasn't like that, psychologically I desired it. Thank you Mort. At least now I can deepen the investigation without fear smile emoticon


KevinD: We can continue a bit if you like, dust off the shelves so to speak...


Mickey:
Tomorrow please. I've gone into contemplation mode


KevinD: Yes, enjoy. (You've earned it)


Mickey:
Thank you


KevinD: My pleasure.


KevinD: Michael, I'd like to keep working with you on this, if you're up for it.


Mickey:
Yes. It feels that all the pains and pleasures in life, belong to a 'me'. I can see that it's a story , made up of pictures and sounds etc, but it seems to be happening to a someone ...


KevinD: Okay, firstly this isn't unusual at all, even after seeing through the illusion.
The concept of self is a persistent one.
So, if it's okay with you, let's see how this apparent entity operates.

In you direct experience, please investigate the following:

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

Is there any separation/boundaries to be found between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.


Mickey:
Ok


Mickey:
No. There is just sensation. The entity is an inference. It seems logical


KevinD: Excellent.
Next we're going to look at the apparent controller.
I know I warned you off teachings during this process, but this is worthwhile.
Take a look at this video first (just the delivery, the Q and A is interesting, but not critical).
Tell me what you think.
Sam Harris Speech on Free Will Given in Vancouver to the Bon Mot Book Club

Mickey:
Ok


KevinD: Michael,
When you're done checking out that video, consider these questions for me please.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?


Mickey:
Ok


Mickey:
Hi Mort. I've checked it out and action seems to just happen. Same with decisions to act ... they arise ... from nowhere ....


KevinD: That seems pretty clear, Michael.
Some of these questions may seem obvious to you, but to be thorough, I'll ask them anyway.

So, let's continue along the same lines by looking at deciding and choosing. There's quite an overlap with actions and control but it's useful to look more closely at what happens (and doesn't happen) when decisions/choices are made.

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?


KevinD: Hi Michael,
How goes?


Mickey:
When I look more closely the decisions and choices appears from nowhere


Mickey:
And then I take ownership of it. That is clear


KevinD: Could you clarify for me what you mean by "I take ownership of it?"


Mickey:
There's the thought that I did that ... and most of the time I believe it


KevinD: You said earlier that I is just "a sound, a thought." How can a sound or thought take ownership?


Mickey:
Good question


Mickey:
It makes me wonder what belief is .... it seems to come from belief ...


Mickey:
Or some kind of sensation ...?


KevinD: Keep looking.
Find this I for me.
I'd like to meet it.


Mickey:
I cannot. It's just thoughts and sensation.Even what ii'm reading are sensation


Mickey:
Something is happening ... I cannot put my finger on it


KevinD: What is happening? And to what is it happening? Dig deep.


Mickey:
I am having moments where it's clear ... and there is just a quietness that's not exactly quiet. Life is just happening ... And then I fall into the I game again


KevinD: Not an issue.
Let's continue.


Mickey:
Ok


Mickey:
I am getting frustrated with myself


KevinD: I can't think why. Things are happening. As you found, there's no you doing them.
Why is frustration happening, Michael??


Mickey:
The realisation doesn't seem to stay


KevinD: I am not a teacher, but I'll tell you what my teacher told me five years ago when I was going through the same thing.
She told me to stop and look deeply, then ask two questions.
Is Awareness still here?
Did you miss anything?
The answer were, and have always been, yes to the first, and no to the second.
We are going to move forward.
My job is to point for you so you can discover the illusory nature of the alleged separate self.


KevinD: I'm going to ask you a number of questions to recap. Please answer each of them.


KevinD: With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?


Mickey:
Nothing ...

The thought "I experience" pops up. That's another thought

Thinking happens

Doing seems like a concept, right now

The thought "I'm aware" pops up ... seemingly in response to the question ... it's another thought


KevinD: Thank you, Michael.
Please answer these seperately and as completely as you can.
I may have further questions, and I will also bring in my colleague guides to review this thread.
  1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
  2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
  3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
  4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
  5. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
  6. Anything to add?
Mickey:
Ok


KevinD: How's it going, Michael??


Mickey:
I've been busy working. I have been contemplating Tomorrow I shall answer


KevinD: Perfect.
No pressure. Just checking in.


Mickey:
1) when I look, I cannot actually find one .... yet in daily life, I can't help feeling that there is, especially when interacting with 'others'

2) As I said above, when communicating with others, it feels like I'm separate from them, most of the time. What it is, I don't know. It seems to be like an assemblage of habits, reactions, feelings. Where it starts I don't know

3) when I see this, it feels as though there's a space or a quiet, running in the background and I'm more identified with that. The last few days, I've been in and out of it. I'm no longer scared of it. It just seems natural. When I appear to lose it, I find myself grasping for it

4) not sure what you mean ...

5) Decisions seem to happen after a flurry of thoughts. Intention seems to happen after I get a feeling. Same with choice. Control seems meaningless to me (which makes me feel vulnerable). I don't know what makes things happen. Even 'cause and effect' seems like a story I tell myself to justify things happening, when I look at it. I feel I'm responsible for my wife, my kids, my job, but I can also see that that might not be true.


KevinD: Thank you, Michael, for the deeply honest answers.

• Regarding number four, I'm basically just asking you what you recall from our pointing and looking experience here, what was your tipping point?
In other words, what was it that had you seeing clearly?

As to the first pair of questions, remember, I'm asking that you look from your direct experience.
That means what you look in the immediacy of the moment, when looking with your felt senses.

• So, with those parameters, is there a separate self at all? Was there ever one?

On the second question, you mentioned that the illusion of separate self occurs when communicating with apparent others.
• Now, from your direct experience (in this very moment), explain how you see it now.


Mickey:
One tipping point was when I was watching thoughts decisions, choices, actions happening
I cannot find a separate self. There was never one

It seems like a story being played out


Mickey:
The other day, I was at a social gathering and I found myself slightly disengaged from everyone, like I was just observing ....


KevinD: Anything you'd like to add, Michael?


Mickey:
At first it felt strange, like I was betraying my friends and then I saw that that was just thought and feeling arising and somehow let it be ... it felt freeing ... and seemed to allow the flow ... hard to explain ...


KevinD: Beautiful
I'm going to run this thread past other guides to see if they have any other questions.


Mickey:
I'd like to add that my mind seems much quieter


KevinD: Michael,
One of our guides has this question:
At the beginning, you said "I'm just looking to see it clearly ....".
When looking happens, is it clear there is no separate self owning a slice of life? Can you see the illusion with clarity like you wanted? Or is something missing?


Mickey:
When I look, I can't find a separate self, yet there is a sense of dissatisfaction. There's still a sense of seeing the world from a certain viewpoint that I believe is not the same as other viewpoints


KevinD: With no separate self, what is dissatisfied?


Mickey:
That through me into quietness


Mickey:
I can see it, but I'm reluctant to say it


KevinD: As we discussed at the beginning, success hinges on complete honesty. Do the best that you can.


Mickey:
I cannot find a self. I now see a tendency to want mental confirmation ... The 'correct thought' if you will ...
I've always known it ...


KevinD: A guide has a follow up question:
What makes you think life would be different?


Mickey:
I suppose I've been sold the idea ... the promise .. Of something better ... whatever that may be ....


KevinD: Michael, tell me, are you absolutely sure, with every fiber of your being, that the separate self is no more than an thought bubble?
Please dig deep for the clearest answer you can.
And if the answer is yes, would you still like to do some looking, just to ensure everything is crystal clear?


Mickey:
Yes. And yes. I can hear the thoughts of doubt, but now see them as thought


KevinD: You said "there is a sense of dissatisfaction. There's still a sense of seeing the world from a certain viewpoint that I believe is not the same as other viewpoints."

In actual experience, where are these 'other viewpoints' that could be compared with this 'certain viewpoint'?

Are these actually experienced? What is experienced, other than... THIS?

Please explain from your direct experience and with as much detail as you can muster.
I really need you to dig deep.


Mickey:
I can see that these other viewpoints are thoughts, pictures, sounds arising in 'me'....
If my wife speaks and has a different opinion on a subject, it gives the impression of another self expressing ...
Yet, I can see now that it it's just what is happening in that moment ...
The label 'my wife', the sounds that come out of her mouth, the gestures are something that is bring experienced in the moment .. and there are reactions, in terms of sensations arising in the body ...
I wonder about the body. This is the only body that is present in every experience during the waking state ... this is another experience ... yet ... it seems more significant to other bodies ...


KevinD: Thank you for the complete answer.
Please explain what you mean by "it seems more significant to other bodies "


Mickey:
By the mere fact that it is experienced more often and seemingly more intimately. If someone expresses pain through sound or gesture, this body does not register it the same way as the other person


KevinD: Interesting.
How do you know that, in direct experience?
Explain for me these others that are referred to, in depth please.
What is it that knows so intimately about what these others feel?
Dig deeply in this present moment, drawing only from felt sense.


Mickey:
I do not know from direct experience what others feel. I only have my feelings/thoughts about what they feel. It seems that I am only intimate with what my own body feels. That's what makes it easy for me to assume a subtle difference, a separation from others. There appears to be a 'you' separate from 'me' asking questions ...
A baby cries. A mother feeds or changes a diaper ...


Mickey:
I can see it is just happening in experience now ... more satisfaction


KevinD: "There appears to be a 'you' separate from 'me' asking questions"
What exactly is determining that separation.
What knows a me?
What knows a you?


Mickey:
It's all just emerging


KevinD: Hi Michael,
Can you be more specific, and a wee bit more detailed?
Thanks.


KevinD: Hi Michael,
How's it going?


KevinD: For clarity, the outstanding questions are:
Michael: "There appears to be a 'you' separate from 'me' asking questions"
Mort: What exactly is determining that separation.
What knows a me?
What knows a you?

I've asked you to be more detailed than "It's just all emerging."


Mickey:
This body. The written words, not made from this hand
I don't know what knows me
The same


KevinD: "This body" is determining the separation of you and me.
In what ways does it do that?
Are there any ways it doesn't?


Mickey:
It is always there when awake, unlike other bodies and things
I can see it is part of the world of things however ....


KevinD: I'm unclear on what you mean.
Your body is there when you awake?
Can you explain?
Also, can you elaborate on how you see it is part of the world of things?


Mickey:
Meaning that the difference between me and someone else is that my body is always with me. I am aware of it when I am awake, but not when asleep.
My body is an appearance, like other objects in the world. It appears special to me


KevinD: Thank you Michael,
I just needed to be crystal clear on what you were saying.
Good answer.
A matter of housekeeping, when you say the body "feels special to me," what is the "me" that sees it as special.
(My apologies if some of this feels repetitive, but I do you no favors by leaving stones unturned)

Best,
Mort


Mickey:
I'm just using conventional language for convenience ....
Because this body is experienced everyday, it feels more special. There is more of an attachment to it than other bodies. It kinds of gives the impression of separateness ...


KevinD: Beautiful, thank you.
I want you to examine this a little more closely.
In direct experience--I mean right now and from the felt sense--embrace the special feeling of that body--really feel it.
Is that special feeling restricted to that form, or does it expand beyond?


KevinD: Thank you Michael,
I just needed to be crystal clear on what you were saying.
Good answer.
A matter of housekeeping, when you say the body "feels special to me," what is the "me" that sees it as special.
(My apologies if some of this feels repetitive, but I do you no favors by leaving stones unturned)

Best,
Mort


Mickey:
The me is a feeling


KevinD: What feels?


Mickey:
Only feeling is found


KevinD: Only feeling is great, thank you, Michael.
About 10 days ago, you told me the sense of separate self was nothing more than a thought.
Earlier you said that the body wasn't the self, but the thought of being a black man felt more real.
Where are you with that now?


Mickey:
I am that in thought only, including the thoughts of how others see me (and sometimes the way they behave towards me). The body is dark skinned and is labelled Black. The feeling of being black is just a feeling, seemingly encouraged by the social world


KevinD: Thanks Michael,
I'm just getting my fellow guides to check in on this thread.


KevinD: Michael, I've been asked to run these questions by you again.
Not a bad idea, as we've done some more work.
Please answer each independently and from your own direct experience.
Thanks.
  1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
  2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
  3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
  4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
  5. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
  6. Anything to add?

KevinD: How's it going, Michael?


Mickey:
Sorry. Life gets pretty hectic sometimes. Still here


Mickey:
1) I cannot find one. I see a body. I experience thoughts and feelings. There has never been. Everything arises together

2) In my experience, the illusion of the separate self starts with the experience of the body with its accompanying sensations and the constant thoughts and feelings that tells the story of a separate entity housed in this body, having a unique experience of life in this world. It appears to have a private mental life, separate from 'others' as well as a public life, interacting with 'others'. It tells the story of an "I", that is different from a "we", "you","us ", etc ...

3) it feels clear and gently liberating when it's seen through, though often there seems to be a 'forgetting 'as well as I move through life performing tasks, living etc ... getting caught up in the story ....

4) ?

I'll get back to you with the last question...


KevinD: Before we get to #4 and #5, let's look at the answers so far.
In #1, If a separate self cannot be found, what is this "I' that sees a body, experiences thoughts and feelings, as you say?
Please, as always, speak from direct experience, nothing apparently learned.
In #2, What do you mean thoughts and feelings are telling a story of separate entity housed in the body?
What is this that has a "private life, separate from `others' as well as a public life, interacting with `others?'

I think I know what you mean, I'm just trying to be tidy here.


KevinD: Still here Michael?


Mickey:
Yes. I'll answer tomorrow


Mickey:
My last post didn't send!!!


Mickey:
This 'I ' is a sensations here are stories running regularly , in the form of pictures and sounds that seem to coincide with sensation in the body


KevinD: Thanks, Michael,

And #5
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


KevinD: Hi, Michael,
How goes?


Mickey:
That's weird! Some of my posts seem to not be sending here!

Decisions seem to just arise ... sometimes after a series of thoughts (deliberations). Intention feels different. It seems to have more of an emotional component. Free Will kind of means nothing to me. It seems like an empty concept that doesn't matter. Choice seems to arise from feelings about something, with a thought component. Same with control. I don't know what makes things happen. I can hear thoughts arise that seem to explain, but they seem like stories to me. It's a mystery to me. I don't know how it works. I feel responsible for my own well being and the well being of my children, but maybe that's just a feeling ...
I have pictures, sounds and feelings that motivate me to take particular actions that I feel would benefit myself and my children. Hugging. Being with. Loving. Caring for. Providing for. Having patience with ...etc ....


KevinD: Nice answers, Michael.


KevinD: Michael, one of the other guides feels there is something here taking responsibilities for the situation of others.
She would like the answer to this:
'What is it that is responsible for wellbeing of yourself and 'others' exactly?


Mickey:
I can see now that is a thought/feeling that emerges from time to time ... sometimes it's not there ...


KevinD: Thank you, Michael, just waiting on my colleagues.


KevinD: Michael, congratulations, the guides agree that you have crashed the gateless gate.
I will get you set up for groups that will help you with aftercare and such.
And of course I remain here for any questions you might have.
Nicely done.


Mickey:
Thanks for your support Mort (that rhymes )


KevinD: :-)
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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