Searching for a guide

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Earthninja
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 pm

Searching for a guide

Postby Earthninja » Fri May 01, 2015 7:52 am

Hello!

My name is Chris, I'm 26 and live in Australia. About two years ago I stumbled onto an online article about Buddhism. Ever since then I've been searching for the truth. I've attended a Vipassana retreat and meditated on and off for the two years mostly doing Anapanasati and mindfulness meditation.

About 6 months ago I started listening to Satsangs with Mooji who teaches Advaita. He resonates strongly with me and this direct inquiry has created a few experiences. The most profound was when I felt my awareness expand to see everything equally.
This experience has since died down but I still feel dissociation from thoughts and some of the other senses. They are less personal now.

I still feel I am a person but I'm not sure on much anymore. I would love a chance to investigate with a guide. I think it's incredible you guys have a site where people give up there time to help others.

I feel this is exactly where I need to be to continue the search. I have read some of the other posts and downloaded the free PDF book.

All this resonates with me deeply.

Really look forward to hearing from you and thanks.

Kind regards,

Chris

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby JonathanR » Fri May 01, 2015 9:52 am

Hi Chris

My name is Jon,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. I would be delighted to assist you in your investigations. It sounds as though you already have been looking at thought and the senses?

. I still feel I am a person but I'm not sure on much anymore. I would love a chance to investigate with a guide.
Interesting, and a good place to start. Can you tell me what you hope to gain or achieve through interacting with a guide here? Do you have hopes or expectations? If so, no matter how insignificant these might seem, let me know.

I live in the UK, by the way.

Warm regards,

Jon

User avatar
Earthninja
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby Earthninja » Fri May 01, 2015 12:01 pm

Hi Jon!

Thank you very much for your time and your reply!
Interesting, and a good place to start. Can you tell me what you hope to gain or achieve through interacting with a guide here? Do you have hopes or expectations?
Jon
I hope to gain a question or pointer that helps me see what I'm failing to see at the moment. Whenever I look the mind has opinions about what I should be looking at or where I should be looking. I feel that a direct question from other than myself might help me focus.
I hope to clear up some misunderstandings and delusions about my existence and ultimately I hope to see with unshakable clarity that there is no person.

Thank you again for your time, I feel so fortunate to be here.

Kind regards Chris

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby JonathanR » Fri May 01, 2015 1:38 pm

Hi Chris,

Thanks fot your reply and I see you have already worked out how to use the 'quote' function. Well done. It's very helpful to make use of this, as I will do.
feel that a direct question from other than myself might help me focus.
I hope to clear up some misunderstandings and delusions about my existence
This is entirely realistic.
ultimately I hope to see with unshakable clarity that there is no person.
Again, great. 'Unshakable' is fine as long as there is an open mind as to how this unshakability might appear and that it may also be subtle, potentially easy to miss if an explosive shift in perception is what is anticipated?

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we continue, a few formalities.

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please read and agree to the following:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

Please agree to the above in your next reply.

OK, let's get started.

Please tell me what it is that you think 'you' are?



Jon. :-)

User avatar
Earthninja
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby Earthninja » Fri May 01, 2015 2:08 pm

Hi Jon
Again, great. 'Unshakable' is fine as long as there is an open mind as to how this unshakability might appear and that it may also be subtle, potentially easy to miss if an explosive shift in perception is what is anticipated?
No I'm not looking for any fireworks or anything, just a clear realisation. I don't have any expectations of how or if this will occur.
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
I agree to all of the above thanks! I have read and agree with the disclaimer.
Please tell me what it is you think "you" are?
To be honest I'm not 100% sure what I am, that's the problem. When I go about my daily life particularly at work or around friends I very much think I am a mixture of the body/mind. When I become aware of myself I am not so sure anymore.
I can observe thoughts arising and passing away and they have a dialogue that I normally believe is I or me. When observed like this I realise these can't be me. I can observe the heart beating, breath happening by itself and even driving a car. But at the same time I feel like I can control my limbs, speech and even some thoughts? So to answer your question most of the time I feel like I am the controller of the body/mind but sometimes as awareness of it, but only when in a meditative state.

Thank you Jon,

Kind regards

Chris

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby JonathanR » Fri May 01, 2015 10:27 pm

Hi Chris,

Thanks for agreeing to the ground rules.
No I'm not looking for any fireworks or anything, just a clear realisation. I don't have any expectations of how or if this will occur.
Great. This is important.
I can observe thoughts arising and passing away and they have a dialogue that I normally believe is I or me. When observed like this I realise these can't be me. I can observe the heart beating, breath happening by itself and even driving a car. But at the same time I feel like I can control my limbs, speech and even some thoughts? So to answer your question most of the time I feel like I am the controller of the body/mind but sometimes as awareness of it, but only when in a meditative state.
There is quite a bit to go on here and room for investigation. You have already drawn attention to thought and to bodily sensations. Both fruitful areas.

Let's start with the body and the senses because 'self' is often identified with body. Take seeing, for example.
Conventionally we tend to say 'I see' and it may (or may not) be assumed that it is 'me' that is the body that is doing the seeing.

So - Right now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.
So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

Can anything be found? There is the thought 'I see', but is there actually an 'I' to be found that does the seeing?
If so, what is that?
Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone?

Regards,

Jon.

User avatar
Earthninja
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby Earthninja » Sat May 02, 2015 11:42 am

Hi Jon,

To answer your question, I would say that all there is, is seeing. Without imputing anything on the experience there is just seeing and awareness of seeing. The awareness is not however different or separate from seeing. I can't find anything doing the seeing, not even the body. There is just vision and I can't find anything doing it.

Thanks for your time and guidance.

With regards

Chris

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby JonathanR » Sat May 02, 2015 6:10 pm

Hi Chris
. To answer your question, I would say that all there is, is seeing. Without imputing anything on the experience there is just seeing and awareness of seeing. The awareness is not however different or separate from seeing. I can't find anything doing the seeing, not even the body. There is just vision and I can't find anything doing it.
Well, that was easy and quite far reaching.

Try a similar exercise with the four other senses in turn, hearing, touch, smell and taste. In each case is there ever a 'self' or 'me' found 'doing' these?
For example are there ears that hear? Is there one that hears? Or is there just hearing?

Kind regards,
Jon.

User avatar
Earthninja
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby Earthninja » Sun May 03, 2015 7:52 am

Hi Jon
Try a similar exercise with the four other senses in turn, hearing, touch, smell and taste. In each case is there ever a 'self' or 'me' found 'doing' these?
For example are there ears that hear? Is there one that hears? Or is there just hearing?
When I inquire directly through each sense there is only ever the experiencing of that sense. For example right now I am listening to the rain but when inquired into there is only just the sound. There is no I that is listening, just awareness of sound. I can't even experience the ears hearing. There is just the sound.
The same can be said for the other senses.
I could say that my feet are experiencing the cold feeling of concrete but without using the mind there is just awareness of sensation. Cold and feet are implied by the mind.
I still can't find any 'I' or 'Me' in any of this.

Thank you again Jon, I am really taking my time with each of these questions and recording the results in a journal.

Kind regards ,

Chris

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby JonathanR » Sun May 03, 2015 9:02 am

Hi Chris,
Thank you again Jon, I am really taking my time with each of these questions and recording the results in a journal.
You are very welcome. The journal is a great idea.
There is no I that is listening, just awareness of sound. I can't even experience the ears hearing. There is just the sound.
Very good.
I could say that my feet are experiencing the cold feeling of concrete but without using the mind there is just awareness of sensation. Cold and feet are implied by the mind.
That seems like an important distinction to have made, that 'feet' are implied whilst the immediate sensation is directly experienced, wouldn't you say?

You mention mind. This idea of 'feet' appears as a thought, doesn't it? Notice how such thoughts are always about the direct experience but never actually THE experience.

Do 'you' think thoughts? Or do thoughts think 'you'?


Jon.

User avatar
Earthninja
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby Earthninja » Sun May 03, 2015 10:19 am

Hi again
You mention mind. This idea of 'feet' appears as a thought, doesn't it? Notice how such thoughts are always about the direct experience but never actually THE experience.

Do 'you' think thoughts? Or do thoughts think 'you'?
I definitely agree, the thoughts about the experience are not the same as the direct experience.

Do 'I' think thoughts? I contemplated this for a while. I can say for 100% certain that I can't stop them. They come up even after the conscious decision to stop thinking. They have a strong pull of identity to them and they appear as a subvocal voice that often refers to I.
The issue I'm having is I know I'm not aware of thoughts before they arise but it feels like I think them into existence. For instance I made the decision to have all thoughts in the future not refer to I. Whilst awareness was on the thoughts they appeared to refrain from saying I.
It was only when attention changed to my towel did I come back. Thoughts arise from seemingly nowhere and disappear back into this nowhere when attention is on thoughts. I guess I'm stuck on the belief I can guide thought patterns? I can't find anything doing the guiding.

I hope you can help me see through this,

Thanks Jon

Kind regards, Chris

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby JonathanR » Sun May 03, 2015 10:58 am


I definitely agree, the thoughts about the experience are not the same as the direct experience.
Good.

. Do 'I' think thoughts? I contemplated this for a while. I can say for 100% certain that I can't stop them. They come up even after the conscious decision to stop thinking.
Very good. Is there a 'self' that could prevent thoughts from appearing or disappearing including the thought 'I'?

Since, as you say, thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing or disappearing can the thought 'I' be prevented from appearing or disappearing?
I guess I'm stuck on the belief I can guide thought patterns? I can't find anything doing the guiding.
Good to notice this. Is there one that can guide thoughts? Is there a controller of thoughts?
If so, what is that one?

Jon.

User avatar
Earthninja
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby Earthninja » Mon May 04, 2015 11:29 am

Hi Jon!

I haven't had much of a chance recently to sit with your questions long enough, I will look into this deeper tomorrow. Thanks for your guidance so far, I've had some small understandings so far with your pointing a but I'm not 100% on this one yet.

With regards

Chris

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby JonathanR » Mon May 04, 2015 9:59 pm

:-) Ok Chris, I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.

Jon

User avatar
Earthninja
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Searching for a guide

Postby Earthninja » Tue May 05, 2015 8:18 am

Hi Jon
Very good. Is there a 'self' that could prevent thoughts from appearing or disappearing including the thought 'I'?
Since, as you say, thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing or disappearing can the thought 'I' be prevented from appearing or disappearing?
The thought 'I' cannot be prevented from appearing or disappearing. The 'self' appears as a thought. I can not find a self apart from the thoughts.
Good to notice this. Is there one that can guide thoughts? Is there a controller of thoughts? If so, what is that one?
I can't find any tangible operator of thoughts in my experience. There is a strong belief in it's existence but I can't find any thinker of thoughts.
I was passively watching thoughts arise and cease but couldn't locate the thinker of them. The thoughts often refer as I and comment on preceding thoughts and it appears that the only thing linking the belief I am the thoughts, is just simply belief.
The thoughts initially appeared as if they were searching for the controller of thoughts and this was believed as me but towards the end of inquiry they appeared mechanical. There was fear arising and feelings of anxiety in the stomach but I accepted it. I know it's good for me.
As to what 'me' is, I have no idea. It appears only as thought and belief.

I still feel like I have work to do however it feels like I'm beginning to see through this illusion. The thoughts have never been less personal as they do now.

Thank you Jon! I really appreciate it.

Kind regards,

Chris


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 98 guests