Seriously need guidance. Please help!!

[Ginger1969]

Dear forum,

Please call me Ginger. I need some guidance. Very close to giving up on 'giving up the self.'

Any help will be appreciated. I will respond really quickly, will stay honest and brief, won't waste your time.

Beg, beg, beg.

Love Ginger

[itstopshere]

Dear Persika,

If that would be ok with you, I would gladly be your guide.

Here are a few ground rules.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
   I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
2. In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
3. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?

You can press 'subscribe to this topic in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive an email every time I post here.

[Ginger1969]

OMG Thank you very much for hearing me out.

I have read the instructions, I promise I will try my best to stick to them.

What are your expectations for this process?

I must talk to someone who has seen through the fictitious self. Knowing 'about' no-self must be different from 'experiencing' no-self.

How will it change you?

As above. In theory I know there is no self, I can even pass myself as a spiritual teacher for a bit till I am spotted lmao. I think I can even attempt to write a book on it. But, its all THEORY at the moment. THAT is what I want to change.

How will this feel?

I hear that when once one sees through the charade of the fictitious self all the questions get answered in that one moment of Truth. I have never felt that moment.

Help me,
Please.
Love
Ginger

[itstopshere]

Dear Ginger (is that what I shall call you?),

What would it mean if your experience stayed exactly like it is? Just like it is now.

I would also be curious to hear why you think there is no self or I.

All the best,

Ric

[Ginger1969]

Hi,

Ginger (is that what I shall call you?)

Yes please call me Ginger :)

What would it mean if your experience stayed exactly like it is?

To me, no-self conclusion is a mental exercise to eliminate social conditioning and to change our perspective. Relearning that there is no subject. It may be life changing for some but it has not changed much for me. I realise it can be Life changing, not Experience changing. Like tea will still taste like tea, but I was hoping to have no feeling of an experiencer or a personal self. Like say "eating food is happening, or washing dishes is happening", as compared to "I am eating. I am doing the dishes."

I would also be curious to hear why you think there is no self or I.

In an extremely honest moment of looking for a self behind the experience, I noticed that everything was 'happening'. Thoughts, actions, actions resulting from thoughts, thoughts resulting from actions, thoughts resulting from sensory inputs, sensory inputs resulting from action/thought." It was a very amusing play of everything OTHER than a me. An 'I' was NOT required at all. Even when I tried to step in and take control, I realised that the thought of stepping in had just popped up from nowhere, NOT by a me. When I tried to 'change' my next action, I realised that the initial thought of 'changing' the next action had just popped up from nowhere. While I was 'thinking' all this the body had done several actions already. I cried a lot that day, for a whole life spent thinking there is a me.

The next day while I was driving, I suddenly got very scared and felt very alone. A sudden thought popped up "If there is no self in me then there is no self in anybody ... OMG ... there are no people in this universe ... What the hell is going on???" I laughed a lot that day, coz EVERYTHING that modern life had seemed really funny.

But then to my worst nightmare, a few days later the old Ginger was back.

Love Ginger

[itstopshere]

To me, no-self conclusion is a mental exercise to eliminate social conditioning and to change our perspective. Relearning that there is no subject. It may be life changing for some but it has not changed much for me. I realise it can be Life changing, not Experience changing. Like tea will still taste like tea, but I was hoping to have no feeling of an experiencer or a personal self. Like say "eating food is happening, or washing dishes is happening", as compared to "I am eating. I am doing the dishes."

Yes. I understand what you are saying. No-self is however not truly a mental exercise, but it can be, and that's not what we want.

In an extremely honest moment of looking for a self behind the experience, I noticed that everything was 'happening'. Thoughts, actions, actions resulting from thoughts, thoughts resulting from actions, thoughts resulting from sensory inputs, sensory inputs resulting from action/thought." It was a very amusing play of everything OTHER than a me. An 'I' was NOT required at all. Even when I tried to step in and take control, I realised that the thought of stepping in had just popped up from nowhere, NOT by a me. When I tried to 'change' my next action, I realised that the initial thought of 'changing' the next action had just popped up from nowhere. While I was 'thinking' all this the body had done several actions already. I cried a lot that day, for a whole life spent thinking there is a me.

The next day while I was driving, I suddenly got very scared and felt very alone. A sudden thought popped up "If there is no self in me then there is no self in anybody ... OMG ... there are no people in this universe ... What the hell is going on???" I laughed a lot that day, coz EVERYTHING that modern life had seemed really funny.

But then to my worst nightmare, a few days later the old Ginger was back.

Do you see the difference between where the insight arrived from, and what gets you back out of that?
Thoughts observed are quite different animals, aren't they.
What gets you "back to the old Ginger" is thoughts uninvestigated. We cannot reasonably expect to fall out of all of the old conditioning in the blink of an eye. It happens for some, I'll grant you that, but generally it does not, and we have to apparently work (apparently, becasue the thoughts and actions come out of nowhere).

So let's investigate. First of all, are you confident that there is no sense of 'me' left? And I don't mean conditioned thoughts observed, but believed thoughts. Are there thoughts that you believe are true, about a 'me'?
If there are no such thoughts, then are there sensations that you believe to be 'me' or pointing to 'me'? The body? The brain?

[Ginger1969]

No-self is however not truly a mental exercise, but it can be, and that's not what we want.

Yes, that is what I meant when I say I am still in the THEORY zone.

Thoughts observed are quite different animals, aren't they.

Oooh, this solves a lot of confusion. Every 'thought' to me is just that ... a thought. Images, sentences, popping up in a nothing and disintegrating into that same nothing. But now that you mention it, catching some thoughts red handed can be a great eyeopening moment.

First of all, are you confident that there is no sense of 'me' left? And I don't mean conditioned thoughts observed, but believed thoughts.

Truckloads. But, there is usually an afterthought that reminds me of no-self. Not always, but it is there at times.

...are there sensations that you believe to be 'me' or pointing to 'me'?

Again, I once tried to question the physical sensation of the 'self'... it turned out to be some pockets of 'touch' coupled with endless blah-blah. When I put that sensation under the honesty microscope, it was a few fuzzy sensations of some 'noise' floating in nowhere. Kind of energy field with hazy outlines in the middle of nowhere, especially if I close my eyes and observe the sensations most honestly. Naming it would be speaking out of conditioning... right?
Plus the mental chatter that did not have a set location, I felt it was in the head. So for a moment I felt that the Physical part of the self is a contraption. A very clever yet very simple contraption. I was reminded of my childhood when we used to arrange pillows under the duvet and ran the shower to make our parents feel we are in our room. Touch plus mental blah-blah makes up a very clever self. It is a prank.

Thanks
Ginger

[itstopshere]

Hello Ginger,

I'm writing the questions that you should definitely answer in blue, for clarity sake :)

Oooh, this solves a lot of confusion. Every 'thought' to me is just that ... a thought. Images, sentences, popping up in a nothing and disintegrating into that same nothing. But now that you mention it, catching some thoughts red handed can be a great eyeopening moment.

Exactly. It's a matter of trying to stay vigilant. Keep asking where they came from, "who believes that?"
Beliefs become an interesting subject to look at too. What is a belief, actually? What is preference?

Truckloads. But, there is usually an afterthought that reminds me of no-self. Not always, but it is there at times.

Good.
- If you realize intellectually there is no self, then what is doing the reflecting and 'remembering'?
- If you realize intellectually there is no self, then how can anything be wrong or incorrect at this moment, even if it's just intellectually understood? If no one is choosing, if this whole big mess is happening exactly as it should, could anything be out of order?

Again, I once tried to question the physical sensation of the 'self'... it turned out to be some pockets of 'touch' coupled with endless blah-blah. When I put that sensation under the honesty microscope, it was a few fuzzy sensations of some 'noise' floating in nowhere. Kind of energy field with hazy outlines in the middle of nowhere, especially if I close my eyes and observe the sensations most honestly. Naming it would be speaking out of conditioning... right?
Plus the mental chatter that did not have a set location, I felt it was in the head. So for a moment I felt that the Physical part of the self is a contraption. A very clever yet very simple contraption. I was reminded of my childhood when we used to arrange pillows under the duvet and ran the shower to make our parents feel we are in our room. Touch plus mental blah-blah makes up a very clever self. It is a prank.

Sounds like you've been investigating quite a bit already. So where or what is your sense of self at this moment?

Also don't forget that part of this is checking again and again and again, what is this feeling? It is easy to look for a bit and go back into the your conditioned state of the person with the body and the doer-story. I know this from experience (and I and most guides still need to remain vigilant in everyday life! in some sense, anyway :-) ).

[Ginger1969]

Hi again, thanks a bunch for your time.

What is a belief, actually? What is preference?

Oh, never really questioned that bit. I would say social conditioning, purely what I have gathered from others or my environment. Survival related thoughts/actions perhaps.

If you realize intellectually there is no self, then what is doing the reflecting and 'remembering'?

The reflection and remembering is being done by the same fictitious self. Even these thoughts are coming from the same source. Difference is in perception .. "Oh! this though was profound while other thoughts were junk." Please correct me if I am wrong.

If you realize intellectually there is no self, then how can anything be wrong or incorrect at this moment, even if it's just intellectually understood? If no one is choosing, if this whole big mess is happening exactly as it should, could anything be out of order?

Indeed. THAT is my problem. Any moment is perfect in itself, then a self cuts-in and starts judging it. Even the judgement is a part of the perfect design. Will the judgement erode away slowly or not cannot be said. I cannot tamper with the automated action/reaction game, coz even the 'tampering' is .. in your own words a fragment of this "whole big mess" LMAO. What a paradox!

The ads say that knowledge of no-self can kick start this process of becoming neutral. Even to the point when you cannot distinguish between two different physical objects or people. They become a part of a limitless you. Everything physical remains the same, just the judge disintegrates.

Please tell me that I am on the right path to get there one day. Right now, I am a piece of shit that feels proud when I forgive someone and even lose temper at my TV remote. What's nuts is that I even know that it is not about becoming a 'better' person, it is about getting rid of the person altogether. Atleast, for now the 'no-self' thoughts have infiltrated this automated system.

So where or what is your sense of self at this moment?

Exactly where it always has been. Body and Mind. They are still at it, blah blah and sensory inputs. This may not be of much interest to you but, to me any introspection is a form of meditation. Much like what I am doing here on this thread. I take it just one step further at bed time where I just try to get into a very very honest state. No nonsense, hard core honesty state. So here is what happens when I try to get there to kill the beast ...

Body : I can meditate to a point when I feel pretty numb, let us say 80% loss of body consciousness but it does not go away totally. So let us say I am not yet 'there' in my meditation.

Mind : The blah blah does not fade away during meditation, it follows me as an annoying, overenthusiastic friend trying to help me out with achieving 'less blah blah". But worse than that, it chickens-out, when I reach deeper levels of meditation where one feels a void like expanse. Scary as hell. What is scared? Well the good old 'self'. What is going on? I WANTED to get rid of this self during meditation so I can focus. Infact that is the reason why I am meditating ... to rid myself of self. I was looking forward to it leaving me be on my journey. I WANT this self to leave me alone there in that void. "Chicken-out ffs but leave me there to see what happens next". Why pull me out of the meditation too with yourself? Why scare me just because you are scared? But then what will be left there in that void if the Self chickens out and leaves? Who will see what happened next? OMG was it the only self meditating the whole time? Please help :-(

People say something is watching all this struggling and stressing, but, in my experience I am still the mini self.

Love Ginger

[itstopshere]

Dear Ginger,

Not to worry. I am here to assist.

Oh, never really questioned that bit. I would say social conditioning, purely what I have gathered from others or my environment. Survival related thoughts/actions perhaps.

No intellectual answers. Look. ;)

The reflection and remembering is being done by the same fictitious self. Even these thoughts are coming from the same source.

How can a fictitious self do anything? That doesn't make too much sense to me. Look and see what you find :)

Indeed. THAT is my problem. Any moment is perfect in itself, then a self cuts-in and starts judging it. Even the judgement is a part of the perfect design. Will the judgement erode away slowly or not cannot be said. I cannot tamper with the automated action/reaction game, coz even the 'tampering' is .. in your own words a fragment of this "whole big mess" LMAO. What a paradox!

Yes! Exactly. There is no way out, unless if that's what happens, but that wouldn't be too important when we realize the nature of the game.

Also, try not to focus too much on what others have said or what is written somewhere. We leave that behind for a moment for a very good reason. We don't want mind games. We want to look. Mind can be a sneaky little bastard, making you believe that what you are doing is entirely innocent. As long as we keep to looking we can be pretty certain we're on track.

Please tell me that I am on the right path to get there one day. Right now, I am a piece of shit

Is that true? Is there a person that could be a piece of shit?
Are you a piece of shit?
Or are you life, expressing itself?
Don't make the mistake to think that I don't understand where you are coming from. I know very well. But I also know we won't get anywhere by me supporting your belief system (me, I, "what I am" etc.)

in my experience I am still the mini self.

Show me your mini self and we will put an end to it.

I will try to answer a bit earlier tomorrow. Had a busy day today :)
You are on the right track. Keep it up!

[Ginger1969]

No intellectual answers.

Hmm.. Those too are thoughts. One after another. A string of thoughts.

How can a fictitious self do anything? That doesn't make too much sense to me. Look and see what you find :)

More thoughts. Different in nature, yet just thoughts. Words, sentences, images.

There is no way out, unless if that's what happens, but that wouldn't be too important when we realize the nature of the game.

'Something' inside wants to reject the idea of 'no control'. That something is nothing but a string of seamless thoughts again. The thoughts are on the line of ...

"There MUST be a way out. Can't just sit here and wait for it to happen, maybe meditation will help. Or perhaps there is a book out there, with that 'one sentence' you have been looking for."

Also, try not to focus too much on what others have said or what is written somewhere.

I know exactly what you mean. Taking other people's word for it is the last thing one should do in order to call the bluff. But then again, like a broken record, the thoughts continue on the lines ...

"Well, do you see you can't do it on your own? You must ask the experts, the people on the other side. Or atleast, go 'inwards', meditation is honest, here you are alone ... so no risk of anybody influencing your finds. What you will discover through meditation will be pure, your own, from within you. First hand wisdom. Insights. Peek spiritual experiences. People say it can be beautiful, these people are not lying.
Oh look no peek experience yet, you must read about those, you can't get them without a guide. Go read a book about them."

Or are you life, expressing itself?

I know exactly what you mean. If there is no personal self then its just life ... lifing away. It is a FACT not just a BELIEF. But that is still intellectual mathematics. A kind of deduction. A theoretical fact. And I am only agreeing with it because it makes perfect sense - NOT empirically.
Something is missing, and I cannot put my finger on it.

Show me your mini self and we will put an end to it.

I cannot show it to you coz there isn't one. But still there is a strong sense of 'being'. Where does that come from? And to make matters worse the sense of 'being' is not just subtle, it has a physical Body and it has that 'string of seamless sentences.' It has a location. 'here in the body'.

I will try to answer a bit earlier tomorrow.

Please, you are helping me here. Spending your time on me when you don't even have to. Thanks for being there for people like me. Don't worry about replying promptly.

Big Hug
Ginger

[itstopshere]

'Something' inside wants to reject the idea of 'no control'. That something is nothing but a string of seamless thoughts again.

So your pure observation is: thoughts come up, out of nowhere. Correct?
It is ok if thoughts come up about rejecting it. In common language we could say: challenge them. Can they refute it? Truly? Is there a way to PROVE that there really IS a person?

The thoughts are on the line of ...
"There MUST be a way out. Can't just sit here and wait for it to happen, maybe meditation will help. Or perhaps there is a book out there, with that 'one sentence' you have been looking for."

The question is: what would you be getting out of?
Can a wave get out of the ocean?
Liberation is non-resistance to that which is, but coming from a true seeing and not a belief.

But still there is a strong sense of 'being'. Where does that come from? And to make matters worse the sense of 'being' is not just subtle, it has a physical Body and it has that 'string of seamless sentences.' It has a location. 'here in the body'.

No it's not. Now you're just indulging in thinking. There is no such sense. Not even seemingly. It's just a bunch of stories. Look!

Hug back :)

[Ginger1969]

So your pure observation is: thoughts come up, out of nowhere. Correct?

Correct.

In common language we could say: challenge them.

A. It is precisely on such occasions when some kind of a 'subject' gets supposed. I completely agree with you that challenging can be done, and I know why you used the words 'common language'. Yet it will be done via thought. Is it not yet again .. more thinking? Only in this case there is a challenger and there is the challenged. :-(

Say for example ...
Thought 1 : "If I read a book on spirituality then maybe ..."
Thought 2 : "That was just a thought, thoughts are nothings."

I keep having these inner dialogues as I am questioning the false sense of a personal self. But unfortunately it is only creating two 'ME's.

B. Also, such a challenging puts a question mark on the auto-pilot mode of life. On the "life is simply living" idea.

what would you be getting out of?

Out of the false sense of a self.

Can a wave get out of the ocean?

No. But what can be done about thoughts that continue to hint at a thinker?

Liberation is non-resistance to that which is, but coming from a true seeing and not a belief.

The 'Which Is' right now is a bunch of thoughts. That is all. But then why there are also a bunch of thoughts that assume there is an invisible, formless, weightless thinker? The only information we have about this thinker is that it thinks and senses. It cannot be found. It cannot be named. So it seems like a comfortable assumption that there is no thinker, there are just thoughts and senses and a body. Added up it is equal to a make believe person so that it makes sense to the brain that does not like unsolved mysteries.

It's just a bunch of stories.

Even when I remove all sense of an ego and stop resisting to What Is, there will still be a sense of being. I mean I won't physically die lolz. It will not be a 'Ginger being' but 'being' will still be felt by whatever is aware of it all. Right?

If that sense of being won't go away then it is present right now and it has been present even before I started forming a Ginger. Like there will still be ocean even when there are no waves. Sorry, if it all sounds like intellectual BS but I do need to clear my doubt. Please tell me that this primary sense of being is all there is and the rest are all stories.

Love
Ginger

[itstopshere]

Yet it will be done via thought. Is it not yet again .. more thinking?

No, you challenge the thought. "Show me the person that is choosing these thoughts!"

Also, such a challenging puts a question mark on the auto-pilot mode of life. On the "life is simply living" idea.

It doesn't. Inquiry happens. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. Can you find the decision to inquire? Can you find the decision not to inquire?

Out of the false sense of a self.

If you are already, always, already it, how could there be anything to get out of? This, right here, is it. If that isn't sufficient, awakening is not what you are (apparently) looking for. You could go to some 'master' who would keep some nice stories up for you about eternal bliss and how enlightenment is a shift into nondual perception and all that hogwash. And maybe, even, in some sense it is. But that would be an experience. Experience happens or does not happen.No one can influence that! And as long as you keep trying to influence it, that is: resist it, you will be unhappy.

No. But what can be done about thoughts that continue to hint at a thinker?

Who is there to do anything about them?
This is not a language game. I'm serious. No one could do something about the thoughts that are "not wanted."
Also: not-wanted thoughts, what does that even mean? That there is an experience of not-wanting, right? Thoughts of not-wanting, maybe a gut feeling of not wanting, but no one doing the not-wanting either.

But then why there are also a bunch of thoughts that assume there is an invisible, formless, weightless thinker?

We could call it conditioning. However, in real-speak, it's just how it happens. Nothing to do about it, as there is no one to do anything.

Even when I remove all sense of an ego and stop resisting to What Is, there will still be a sense of being. I mean I won't physically die lolz. It will not be a 'Ginger being' but 'being' will still be felt by whatever is aware of it all. Right?

If that sense of being won't go away then it is present right now and it has been present even before I started forming a Ginger. Like there will still be ocean even when there are no waves. Sorry, if it all sounds like intellectual BS but I do need to clear my doubt. Please tell me that this primary sense of being is all there is and the rest are all stories.

Sounds accurate. For now, anyway. More can be said about this, but let's look at the above first. :)

If I sound harsh, know that it's all in good spirit. I'm not trying to offend or hurt, just shake up.

Hugs

[Ginger1969]

Thanks a bunch for your reply.

No, you challenge the thought. "Show me the person that is choosing these thoughts!"

Here I would repeat what you said but underline a different word ...

No, you challenge the thought. "Show me the person that is choosing these thoughts!"

Just like there is no real Gate. There is no real person either. Will, what is challenging remain exactly where it is once the Gate has been passed through? Both the Gate and the Person will evaporate?

There are thoughts and actions. But, in some honest moments/meditation I have found a third entity. This third entity takes subtle actions. Like, ignore thoughts, or focus on breath. Ignoring and focusing is not a thought, it is not even a physical action. Yes sometimes it is followed by a thought or an action. For example:

But the initial action of shaking out is subtle, not thought based, it is non-verbal. What or who does it?

Inquiry happens. And if it doesn't, it doesn't.

Agreed 100%

shift into nondual perception

But there are possibilities of a shift right? lol it ain't different from chasing that new Apple Watch out there. He has it and I can have it too if I worked a bit harder. OMG I think I am a seeker. eee

But that would be an experience.

I have heard that a lot. Sorry, I have been through a lot of spiritual porn vids online. And if there is one thing all these 'awakened' people rub in your faces are those la la land experiences they have had. It seems that if one has not had one of those 'glimpses' then they can forget about getting anywhere in their spiritual journeys. Now I am knee deep into seeking that one moment of (I know you must be doing a facepalm right now) ... eternal bliss. :-(
It is the 'car/gucci bag' I want. Meditating round the clock. I hear a glimpse is worth a 1000 words.

Experience happens or does not happen.

Shucks.

And as long as you keep trying to influence it, that is: resist it, you will be unhappy.

ikr
I will try my best to not hate my slice of bread coz it ain't a cake :-(

no one doing the not-wanting

Yes. Absolutely true. The not-wanting thoughts are just ... not-wanting 'thoughts'. Thanks for your beautiful explanation.

We could call it conditioning.

So can I ask a technical question? I know they come, stay, and disappear into awareness. Where do the thoughts originate, before they come into the awareness? (Spiritual bs I know.)

If I sound harsh, know that it's all in good spirit. I'm not trying to offend or hurt, just shake up.

Please be as harsh as you like. I don't even mind a few four lettered words thrown at me :) You are my guide. I am lucky that you even care to answer.

Luv
Ginger