Final Push ...

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devindra
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Final Push ...

Postby devindra » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:15 am

Hi There ... some guidance is required. I feel I'm close. Some history ... I have been a seeker for many years. Some two years back I made a break-through (catalysts being my Mother dying, a profound Ayahuasca experience and some Advaita thrown in) to clear away years of bullshit. Finally seeing that the spiritual path is a refined kind of bondage, that at the root of the seeking is a selfish striving for something ... anything that will make YOU special in some way or other. Enlightenment, realization ... whatever concept or word that is used, when you're caught up in that personal game it's all the same - striving for selfish benefit. So that's out of the way ... at the moment I sit in meditation following Vipassana practice ... and since the above mentioned realization, the meditation is more direct ... just sitting with what is. Direct experience, breath etc.

I find that intellectually I see the illusionary nature of self and buy it. There is, however, this deep residual attachment to an identity, some kind of independent agent that is rooted in THIS body, THIS mind ... and if left for long enough quietly takes over and pulls the proverbial wool over 'my' eyes.

I am now only interested in the truth of WHAT IS - no BS. I would appreciate a guide that could possibly take me all the way.
Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent of everything you do is for yourself And there isn't one. - Wei Wu Wei

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Xain
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby Xain » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:06 pm

Hi Devindra
I am now only interested in the truth of WHAT IS - no BS
Sounds good to me. No spiritual BS here.
I would appreciate a guide that could possibly take me all the way.
. . . I feel I'm close.
Well what is 'all the way'? Close to what?
There might be a subtle belief there that there is someone (a self) that is close to gaining something or a self that could reach or attain a goal.
What are you hoping to reach or attain? What do you seek in any guidance with me?
What would it mean (for you)?
Do you have any expectations?
. . . at the root of the seeking is a selfish striving for something ... anything that will make YOU special in some way or other.
Indeed, yes. Great that you realise this early on.
Some two years back I made a break-through (catalysts being my Mother dying, a profound Ayahuasca experience and some Advaita thrown in) to clear away years of bullshit.
Sounds cool. Everyone approaches this stuff from a different angle.
The only thing I would add here, is that any new ideas from Advaita could be unhelpful depending on what they are (one-ness, bliss, a permanent state, disappearance etc)
I find that intellectually I see the illusionary nature of self and buy it.
Sure - That's pretty much where I was at the start before coming to LU. It made sense 'mentally' but there wasn't any deep realisation.
... at the moment I sit in meditation following Vipassana practice ... and since the above mentioned realization, the meditation is more direct ... just sitting with what is. Direct experience, breath etc.
Good. This guiding is simply an extension of your own self-inquiry, but 'guided' so that specific areas can be examined and addressed . . . maybe areas that haven't been examined or even considered.

Xain ♥

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devindra
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby devindra » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:32 pm

Hi Xain!

Thank you for your quick reply.
Well what is 'all the way'? Close to what?
There might be a subtle belief there that there is someone (a self) that is close to gaining something or a self that could reach or attain a goal.
What are you hoping to reach or attain? What do you seek in any guidance with me?
What would it mean (for you)?
Do you have any expectations?
I am going to give your questions due consideration over the weekend and reply more fully then.

Devindra
Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent of everything you do is for yourself And there isn't one. - Wei Wu Wei

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Xain
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby Xain » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:13 pm

I am going to give your questions due consideration over the weekend and reply more fully then.
That's cool, Devindra (what a lovely name).

No deep thinking needed at the moment - Just general ideas and chat to begin with.
Feel free to open up about what you want and expect. Also, any concerns you have.

Xain ♥

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devindra
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby devindra » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:43 pm

Hi Again Xian ... what brought me here wasn't the expectation of anything actually. I see the ridiculousness of gaining anything in the process. On the conceptual level there is complete understanding that searching for 'something' will lead nowhere but this is precisely where the cognitive dissonance lies for me! There is this deep abiding sense (frustration almost) that something is missing! At this level I find myself no longer conceptualizing stuff but feeling existentially that something is missing. Most odd!? ... it almost a anxiety that direct experience (sight, sound smell etc.) IS all that is real and that this deep abiding sense of agency and meaning that has been cultivated all these years has no meaning. Can it be that simple?
Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent of everything you do is for yourself And there isn't one. - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Final Push ...

Postby Xain » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:02 pm

On the conceptual level there is complete understanding that searching for 'something' will lead nowhere but this is precisely where the cognitive dissonance lies for me!
Yes - This whole area can be considered a bit of a contradiction.

Let me explain what I would aim for.
I would aim for a realisation. That realisation would be that 'I' or 'me' is nothing more than an idea - A thought.
That there is no separate self here. Nor has there ever been a separate self. It is just a self-referencing thought.
At the same time, it is realised that no separate self, no 'I', no 'person' realised anything.
I don't know if this explanation helps or makes the dissonance worse :-)
It almost a anxiety that direct experience (sight, sound smell etc.) IS all that is real . . .
Well what is real and what is not is the subject for a different investigation.
My guiding here will be using what can be found in the experience of the present moment (in seeing, hearing etc) and comparing it with the ideas that we have about ourselves to see if any difference between the two can be found and what this may mean.

You appear to be coming to this guidance with a good clear framework. I know you haven't any deep expectations but please put away all expectations about what will happen other than to realise what I have mentioned.
Also, I would also ask you to put away all non-dual ideas or things you may have read or heard about from non-dual / Advaita teachers and approach this very simply and basically from your own deep personal beliefs (rather than what you've been told).

If you are OK to begin, have a look at these guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

The very first thing to establish is the current beliefs you have about yourself.
What the word 'I' or 'me' mean (although of course I will use the word 'you' in my reply)
What does 'I' point to - What is it responsible for - What does it do.
No deep mental analysis is needed here.

For example, is there a body here right now normally you would consider to be 'you'.
Right now, 'you' are looking at a computer screen and reading words.
Maybe 'you' can feel a chair or similar surface against your body.
A few days ago 'you' chose to have a chat with a guide here.
In a while, 'you' will think of what to write and will choose the most appropriate words to use and type a reply.
Those are a few ideas - Feel free to use your own words and ideas.

Xain ♥

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devindra
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby devindra » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:41 pm

Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
OK
Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
OK
Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
KISS ... OK
Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
I have read it.

OK ... for me 'I' refers exclusively to this body and its attendant activities. So 'I' for me is wrapped up in body identification - looking, feeling, thinking etc. So at the moment I am focusing awareness on your questions, thinking about what to write and writing on the keyboard ... I think I've just had a small aha! THIS body is not an idea about anything ... it just is. The same can be said for the sensations that are felt, the thoughts that are thought and any activities that are done or in the process of doing. The same can be said for any realisation that may or may not be had! Why have I not seen that one before? So ... your prompt,
I would aim for a realisation.
makes perfect sense now because just like the other body related activities mentioned above, it will just happen without the need for an 'idea' of 'someone' having it. So this idea of 'realisation' I have is wrapped in some special personal use case inside my head! My deep seated belief is I am the 'realiser' who can look from some higher point of view and analyse, observe, judge but ... as far as I can tell it's just a belief.

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Xain
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby Xain » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:06 pm

... I think I've just had a small aha! THIS body is not an idea about anything ... it just is.
Well, let's look at this one.
There is a body here.
What makes it 'you'?

There is no-doubt a screen in front of you that you are reading this from.
What makes the body 'you' and the screen 'not you'?

Xain ♥

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devindra
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby devindra » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:04 am

What makes the body 'you' and the screen 'not you'?
I cannot say the body IS me, anymore than the screen is. There is a sense though ... that the body is more personal than the screen. I am personally invested in the body and it's well-being, more so than the screen's. So in that sense I identify more with the body than the screen. Following that train of thought ... I have this sense that there is a kind of spectrum with things 'out there' in the world becoming more and more personal the closer they are. My body being perceived as quite close so more personal, my thoughts and feeling closer yet and so on ... ending in a centre of sorts.

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Xain
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby Xain » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:06 pm

I am personally invested in the body and it's well-being, more so than the screen's.
Interesting.
Although you say the body is not you, there is a 'you' here that looks after it . . .
What's that? Is it separate to the body?
My body being perceived as quite close so more personal, my thoughts and feeling closer yet and so on ... ending in a centre of sorts.
Well there may be a 'centre' - However we need to establish that there is a separate 'you' at this centre.

'This body is the centre' may come from the idea that the body 'performs' the senses - That it 'does' seeing, hearing etc - So let's look into this as a starting point.

Right now a screen is being seen.
Words are being read off the screen.
From the experience itself, can you tell what is doing that?
What is doing the seeing? What is doing the reading?

Xain ♥

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devindra
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby devindra » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:28 pm

OK ... there is a glimmer of recognition of what is being pointed at here. That in the actual seeing of the screen, the immediate experience of it that is, seeing just happens. Reading happens on it's own, understanding happens - no intermediary is necessary. You loose it when you try to make sense of it afterwards though! This strong sense of 'I' seems to be just a little bit behind the times ;) Interestingly I was out walking in the mountains today with my son. We're fortunate to live in a beautiful part of the world. We hadn't gone far and lost in some conversation or other, my chattering mind was instantly switched off! Right in the path just a meter or so away was the biggest puff-adder I've seen on the mountain yet (the buggers always end up staying put until you're about to step on them). It was pulling back to strike and hissing (they aren't called puff-adders for nothing!). In that precise moment there was no sense of 'I' at all, no me just reflex and adrenalin. Ordinarily I'd just go back to being 'me' but maybe our conversation as well as that raw shocking experience had me primed ... so ...
From the experience itself, can you tell what is doing that?
This question is now a bit laughable actually ... this experience of writing the response - what is doing that?! In the direct experience of it there is no one doing just the doing itself. Phew! That wasn't hard to admit now was it ... talking to himself. Wow Xain there is a bit of unpacking to do here? It's a kind of honesty isn't it - this pointing to direct experience? The alternative is a life built on a false assumption ... kind of sad and funny at the same time. Where to from here?
Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent of everything you do is for yourself And there isn't one. - Wei Wu Wei

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Xain
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby Xain » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:04 am

OK ... there is a glimmer of recognition of what is being pointed at here. That in the actual seeing of the screen, the immediate experience of it that is, seeing just happens.
Good. And yes, it is as simple as that.
We can say that there is 'seeing'. If we say 'I am seeing', then the 'I' is simply an idea - A thought - An assumption.
In the seeing itself, there is no 'I' apparent doing it.
You loose it when you try to make sense of it afterwards though!
Through thinking? Yes :-)
In that precise moment there was no sense of 'I' at all, no me just reflex and adrenalin.
This is a great discovery. Yes. In the moment of 'stress', the mind / thoughts switch off . . . and it would be the discovery here that the mind and thought is generating the assumption / idea of a separate self.
The alternative is a life built on a false assumption ... kind of sad and funny at the same time.
A life for of false assumption for who or what?
Where to from here?
Well let's go through things one by one.
We examined 'seeing' - Can you check 'hearing', 'smell' and 'taste' in the same way.
Really check the experiences - Is there an 'I', a separate self to be found operating these senses?

Touch may be a little more tricky, buy check it out. Maybe close your eyes for this one.
Rest a hand on a table or flat surface . . . is there a 'you' or 'hand' or 'body' that is doing the touching.
Are there two clear parts to the experience 1) The 'I' that is touching and 2) The table that is being touched?
Further . . . without the 'idea' that it is a table . . . would you know a table was being touched?
Is there 'touching a table' or is there just a sensation alone?

Xain ♥

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devindra
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby devindra » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:13 am

Since the last post it has been interesting ... More of an ability to return to immediate experience and stay there without getting lost in the need for reflection. Best way I can describe it at the moment is a kind of opening out into the world (as cliched as that sounds ;). Self reflection turns things the other way ... a kind of spiraling out of the moment ... . Weird how this belief in the 'I' as substantive hinges on a fear that somehow, at some level, control will be lost if the belief is given up. The opposite is true - direct experience requires no effort but ... belief in 'I' as an independent entity requires a lot!

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devindra
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby devindra » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:25 am

A life for of false assumption for who or what?
For me at the moment, the most substantive aspect of 'I' can find (as I must admit I cannot find it in direct experience) around this concept of 'I' is a firm BELIEF that there is an abiding entity. That is the potentially false assumption that I'm referring to and examining at the moment.

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Xain
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Re: Final Push ...

Postby Xain » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:22 pm

That is the potentially false assumption that I'm referring to and examining at the moment.
Yes - We are examining to see if there is indeed a entity here that is 'you'.

However, please follow my guiding. It seems you are going off into thoughts and analysis too easily.
Have a go at the 'touch' experiment and let me know what is found or what is clear.

Xain ♥


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