Requesting guidance

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colorized42
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Requesting guidance

Postby colorized42 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:45 pm

Hello,

I've been lurking on the LU forum for a quite a while, but I now feel ready to jump in. I'd like to request guidance.

Thank you, in advance, kind volunteer!

~Preety

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Andrei
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Andrei » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:34 am

Hi Preety

I would be happy to guide you on your journey.

But before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

6. Please use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
7. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
-----

Tell me a few things about you and about your "spiritual"journey so far, books you read, teachers or gurus that helped you in your quest. All this as succinct as possible ofc.

What do you know about Liberation Unleashed? What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?

PS: during our conversation, while waiting for my answers to your posts, feel free to browse through the LU site, read the articles, or read through the other threads on this forum or the Gateless gatecrashers book which was quite helpful in my case.

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colorized42
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby colorized42 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:25 am

Hi Andrei,

I agree to all of the ground rules. If I can't respond on a certain day, I'll be sure to let you know in advance.
Tell me a few things about you and about your "spiritual"journey so far, books you read, teachers or gurus that helped you in your quest. All this as succinct as possible ofc.

What do you know about Liberation Unleashed? What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?
I've questioned my life's path since I was a teenager ... what does 'all of this' mean, what it will amount to, etc. Over time, I exposed myself to bits and pieces of western and eastern philosophy, and felt really drawn to a few key concepts, such as the fact that 'reality' is simply a projection of mind. Lately, I encountered the concept of no-self, which intrigued me enough that I started hunting for explanations/accounts. Jed McKenna's books were my first entree into this, as was Sam Harris' Waking Up, and a few late-night web searches led me to Liberation Unleashed. I've been browsing through forum posts ever since, and really enjoyed reading through the journey that many members of the forum have undertaken. I also read the Gateless Gatecrashers book, through which I gained an intellectual appreciation for liberation/enlightenment (and realized that it wasn't just some spiritual mumbo jumbo), but I have yet to feel the realization myself. I think I may have gotten close sometimes, but just not close enough.

I'd say that I expect to feel ... something ... I just don't know what. A noticeable change of some sort, regardless of how subtle it is. I'm not expecting everlasting bliss ... but perhaps an appreciation for the stream of present moments that I will experience until I die. And I think that this state of mind will require practice to maintain (perhaps), and I look forward to building that muscle. Ultimately, I'm hoping to achieve a kind of deep peace ... the kind that mystics/spiritualists of all stripes and from all eras have described in some way or another.

I also once had an interesting moment during a psychedelic experience, which gave me a brief taste of the deep peace/joy (that I expect) ... as if I were communing with the real reality. That might not make much sense, but it made me excited about the possibility of such a state.

Thanks again for offering to guide!

~Preety

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Andrei
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Andrei » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:18 am

but I have yet to feel the realization myself. I think I may have gotten close sometimes, but just not close enough.
You`ll get there. As long as you`re determined to feel it you will eventually.
I can see a similarity with my case. I went through the same bits and pieces of philosophy from all over, then explored non-duality and Jed`s books as well. I was able to self-digest (as he puts it) myself until there was nothing but the presence of something, this mental screen everything projects on, the awareness.
Thing is awareness became just another level of self, like a block of concrete keeping me trapped. Jed`s books didnt take me through. When the search is only in the head it leads to nihilism. You have to start "seeing" the self for what it is (which is nothing) and not just mentally grasp the concept because that leads to nihilism. My "liberation" came during meditation. I relaxed, tried to pause all the senses (the ones that by continuously submitting information to the brain create this state of awareness) and then I noticed how it starts to lose its texture, becomes a floating mush lol. That was the last step for me, no more boundaries, nothing.
Anyway, just putting it out there just in case you find something helpful for your journey.
I'd say that I expect to feel ... something ... I just don't know what. A noticeable change of some sort, regardless of how subtle it is. I'm not expecting everlasting bliss ... but perhaps an appreciation for the stream of present moments that I will experience until I die. And I think that this state of mind will require practice to maintain (perhaps), and I look forward to building that muscle.
Pretty good answer. "Achieving" no self is as simple as that, a simple change in your awareness (for the lack of a better word). Even liberation sounds a bit pompous. I`d call it more like a realization of some sort, because thats what it is, just going back to a more natural way of functioning, before the thoughts and emotions started to create this shield of ego around each of us.
One amendment though - liberation is not a state of mind and it doesnt require practice or building muscles. Its exactly the opposite. Just relax, clear your head of thoughts and concepts (because in a way they are the enemy here) and start "seeing" instead.
For bliss and psychedelic experiences Im afraid you will have to do something else. Doesnt come with this package. No divine mind, eternal love, winning the lottery either. I know I was disappointed as well. Liberated beings shouldnt work for a living! lol

Ok next topics:

When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?

When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it?

Is there an “I” in direct experience?

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colorized42
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby colorized42 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:13 pm

You`ll get there. As long as you`re determined to feel it you will eventually.
That's promising :) And thank you for sharing a little about your own experience.
When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?
None. It makes sense, intellectually. But there is some puzzlement: if there is no "me", then what is there?
When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it?
My use of "I" or "me" refers to several things at once: the body and its sensorium, thoughts that are currently arising, memories, etc. When a thought or sensation occurs, I feel as if I'm being subjected to it or that I am the subject experiencing it. I intellectually understand that the "I" is a bundle of many transient things, and that the components of the bundle are constantly changing. However, feeling this understanding is a different matter.
Is there an “I” in direct experience?
Not necessarily ... or in the other words, there doesn't have to be ... it's not a requirement for experience to occur. As I look to the walls of my room and listen to the birds chirping outside, I notice that seeing and hearing can occur without the presence of a subject that experiences the seeing and hearing. That subject is born out of thought (internal talking), and even when thought is not present, seeing and hearing still are.

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Andrei
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Andrei » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:47 am

When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?
None. It makes sense, intellectually. But there is some puzzlement: if there is no "me", then what is there?
The "what is out there" is a thought right? Can you check to see how did that thought appear on your mind screen?
(a) Did you "will" it? or
(b) Did it just appear out of the blue independent of a manager?
If the answer is (a) how exactly did you do it? And if the answer is (b) then you just discovered how the illusion of a personal self is created and that you dont need to answer that question because it was not a "you" who asked in the first place.
Is there an “I” in direct experience?
Not necessarily ... or in the other words, there doesn't have to be ... it's not a requirement for experience to occur. As I look to the walls of my room and listen to the birds chirping outside, I notice that seeing and hearing can occur without the presence of a subject that experiences the seeing and hearing. That subject is born out of thought (internal talking), and even when thought is not present, seeing and hearing still are.
So I take it that there is no "I" in direct experience and that the "I" thought comes and hijacks the experience in a way?
Same for every other occurance, ie emotions : there is a sensation of lightness inside the body and a thought occurs: "Im happy". But is there an "I" who is happy or is happiness just happening?

Is there an "I" who hears music or is hearing just happening?
Basically, is the self the observer/witness/perceiver of the actual experiences or is it just a thought label that appears afterwards?
I intellectually understand that the "I" is a bundle of many transient things, and that the components of the bundle are constantly changing. However, feeling this understanding is a different matter.
The click will happen when you will start seeing the "you" as nothing more than a thought appearing on your mind screen. I will batter you with questions in order to limit you identifying with it. At one point though the mind will have to go numb and you will start seeing instead. No logical reasoning will take you to the other side.

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colorized42
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby colorized42 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:27 am

The "what is out there" is a thought right? Can you check to see how did that thought appear on your mind screen?
(a) Did you "will" it? or
(b) Did it just appear out of the blue independent of a manager?
If the answer is (a) how exactly did you do it? And if the answer is (b) then you just discovered how the illusion of a personal self is created and that you dont need to answer that question because it was not a "you" who asked in the first place.
Ah, the mind-as-screen metaphor makes a lot of sense, thanks.

"I" only "willed" it insofar there were prior thoughts that led up the "what is out there?" question. And those prior thoughts were products of other prior thoughts ... and you're right ... the entire bundle of thought appeared over time without the need of a manager/think-er/director. There's just a constant stream of thought, and each one flows out of / ricochets off of another.

I even tried disproving myself, by pausing and trying to think of something entirely different ... something of my own "choosing". But even that pause, and the subsequent thought, was a reaction off of the prior stream of thought you instigated by posing these questions to me.
So I take it that there is no "I" in direct experience and that the "I" thought comes and hijacks the experience in a way?
Yes, that's a good way to put it. Experience is there, and then a stream of thought appears, leading to several things at once: ownership of the experience, which in turn implies an owner, which in turn implies a subject that is affected by its surroundings, etc, etc.
Same for every other occurance, ie emotions : there is a sensation of lightness inside the body and a thought occurs: "Im happy". But is there an "I" who is happy or is happiness just happening?
Yes! When I meditate while driving sometimes, there is lightness ... and then BAM ... a thought appears. Sometimes the thought dissipates and the lightness remains, but other times "I" chase the thought all over the place (becoming distracted once again and arriving at my destination without realizing what occurred during the journey).

I can see how emotions can "just happen" as well, similar to visual or auditory sensations. Happiness, born out of thought (i.e. intellectual satisfaction) or out of a feeling in the body (i.e. relaxation), does not need an owner or a subject that experiences it. It's just there.
Is there an "I" who hears music or is hearing just happening?
Basically, is the self the observer/witness/perceiver of the actual experiences or is it just a thought label that appears afterwards?
Experience--seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling--is just happening. What throws me off is that it's all centralized in this body, and largely in this head. And so when I look out into the world (visually, and otherwise), there seems to be separation between a "me"/"I" and everything else. That's why the observer seems to be more real than just a mere label ... but then I remind myself: the body too is just happening. It will continue happening ... like any other bundle of matter, thought, etc ... until the body expires. And then happening of any kind will simply cease. I think I still need to chew on this a little bit more :)

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Andrei
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Andrei » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:39 pm

There's just a constant stream of thought, and each one flows out of / ricochets off of another.
And thats not going to stop. Thinking is a basic function of the brain. Thats what it does. Nothing magical and nothing personal either.
There are ways to stop the flow and make the mind more peaceful but that becomes rather unimportant when you discover that the mind and the thoughts have nothing to do with a "you". They just do what they were designed for.
Paradoxically when you stop caring about it, the mind/thoughts become lighter as well.
I can see how emotions can "just happen" as well, similar to visual or auditory sensations. Happiness, born out of thought (i.e. intellectual satisfaction) or out of a feeling in the body (i.e. relaxation), does not need an owner or a subject that experiences it. It's just there.
That is very good seeing. Things just happen.
Experience--seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling--is just happening. What throws me off is that it's all centralized in this body, and largely in this head.
Thats just anatomy. You touch something and the nervous system sends the information from the finger tips to the brain. The constant flow of information from all the senses to the brain creates this feeling that there is something continuous there, a center. And there is, the brain is like a central processing unit from a computer. But the brain is not a YOU, nothing personal in it. Its just a mechanism. And it will continue to function the same whether you identify with it or not.
the body too is just happening. It will continue happening ... like any other bundle of matter, thought, etc ... until the body expires.
Precisely!
Btw, does the body experience sensations and thoughts? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Where is the body when you`re lost in watching a movie? Where is the body now while you`re reading this? Or you become aware of the body only when you focus on your hand touching the desk or your weight on the chair?

Is there an inside and an outside of the body?

What about the other objects(nature, animals,people)? Is there a "you" that feels sepparated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

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colorized42
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby colorized42 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:32 am

Btw, does the body experience sensations and thoughts? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Where is the body when you`re lost in watching a movie? Where is the body now while you`re reading this? Or you become aware of the body only when you focus on your hand touching the desk or your weight on the chair?
The body is yet another thing seen, felt, heard, etc (i.e. observed). In a way, with no "me" there, everything has been flattened ... there is no separation between "observer" and "observed" (2 layers) ... there is simply the observed (1 layer). And observation occurs in every waking moment (and even within dreams).

A question popped up: well, then what's doing the observing? I searched, and it seems like there is nothing doing the observing ... rather, all of the zillions of atomic and energetic interactions swirling in this very moment give rise to both that which is being observed and the sensors (centralized in this body) from which observation emerges. All of reality, in all its complexity, is simply occurring ... and that includes the "I"/"me" concept.

In a way, the "I"/"me" concept isn't wrong or bad. It's just ... unnecessary.
Is there an inside and an outside of the body?
Seemingly, such as the border between the skin and everything else "out there" ... but not really. The body is a component of this observed reality ... in fact, it is this reality, through and through. It's just one swirling mass of "stuff" (atoms, energy, etc), and the body/thoughts/sensations are just a pattern that has emerged out of it, temporarily. (I encountered this metaphor in the Gateless Gatecrashers book I think: "I" am / this body is just one wave on top of a vast ocean.)
What about the other objects(nature, animals,people)? Is there a "you" that feels sepparated from them or is that just another thought/concept?
Similarly, everything seemingly "out there" is just a part of this single sensorium. The towel I'm looking at right now automatically evokes A LOT all at the same time: it's mine, it's not in/on my body and therefore it is separate from me, it needs to be replaced with another towel soon, etc, etc. But, like you suggested, these are all thoughts/concepts that flood in out of habit. Actually, the towel is really just a different set of colors in the visual field ... and, if I got up to touch it, it would just become a different sensation in the tactile field. Other people are the same: observations that are occurring ... they're not even independent things or entities ... just components of this single sensorium.

In a way, whenever "I" am frustrated at someone or something ... the frustration is seemingly directed at some "other thing" ... but it's actually directed at the source of the frustration itself ... the very thing that gives rise to the sensorium within which the frustration could even be possible. The old "everything is one" saying makes a lot of sense now.

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Andrei
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Andrei » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:59 am

It all looks good. I think you got the hang of it.
In a way, whenever "I" am frustrated at someone or something ... the frustration is seemingly directed at some "other thing" ... but it's actually directed at the source of the frustration itself
A short comment here - just because you`ve seen through the illusion of the self doesnt mean it`s all gone. The "self" can still bite and it will. There will still be moments when thoughts or emotions will take charge making up another story about a "you" who have to fight another battle for something that is "yours" whether its a concept or a property or whatever. Just that dis-identification with it will happen a lot sooner now that you`ve seen through the illusion of the self. So for example, frustration will still happen but you will be able to observe it happening and take charge.
The journey doesnt end here and thats why we have more areas in this forum and some facebook groups which will be made available to you as soon as our conversation here ends, in order for you to attend whichever comes up in time.

Moving on:
Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either (e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper), then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe from direct experience how choosing happens.

What about the platform on which things happen (call it mind-screen, awareness, Jed called it "I am" if I remember correctly)? Is that a deeper level of the "self" or is it just another bodily function or something existing without the need of making it personal?

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self? Is there anything that you feel we havent attended, any remnants of a "self" you wish you talk about?

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colorized42
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby colorized42 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:18 pm

A short comment here - just because you`ve seen through the illusion of the self doesnt mean it`s all gone. The "self" can still bite and it will.
(Please bear with the use of "I" in the following:)

I appreciate the heads up. It definitely has bit in the past couple of days! The "dis-identification" definitely occurs sooner now. In a way, I've had moments of dis-identification throughout my life (peaceful, gentle moments where only the present moment remained), but they were never recognized as such.

I can tell that I still have a long way to go before my life/perspective/orientation is restructured around this (VERY) subtle realization.
Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either (e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper), then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe from direct experience how choosing happens.
The choice occurs differently for different pairs of things. In one case, a thought immediately popped up, indicating a preference of one thing over the other. In another case, a series of thoughts popped up, each one posing a pro or a con ... and then the thing associated with the most pros won out. Ultimately, choosing is born of thought, or habit, or some kind of immediate reflex. There is no "chooser" that deliberates. The chooser that I felt was there in the past was simply a virtual construction composed of thoughts.
What about the platform on which things happen (call it mind-screen, awareness, Jed called it "I am" if I remember correctly)? Is that a deeper level of the "self" or is it just another bodily function or something existing without the need of making it personal?
There is something there, in such a way that it is not there for an inanimate object like a rock or a table (which, in turn, aren't separate from what is there ...). But that thing is the totality of reality that is being experienced in this present moment. All of the synonyms (mind-screen being my favorite), that describe that thing that is there, are not a deeper level of self. They simply emerge from the countless interactions between the body, the earth, the universe ... or, in other words, they emerge from the ineffable flow of reality in this present moment.
Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self? Is there anything that you feel we havent attended, any remnants of a "self" you wish you talk about?
I'm surprised by how subtle the realization is. Everything (what I see, hear, think, experience, etc) seems the same, but the mental model/frame that interprets it is slightly different now (the model/frame isn't separate from that which is being interpreted). But, being so subtle, it is easy to let go of it during day-to-day life ... like you said, the "self" will continue to bite. You mentioned that this is something that is not practiced, but I wonder if there are ways to maintain dis-identification.

On the other hand, I recognize that there is no "I" that can do the maintaining. It will happen when it happens and, perhaps like an avalanche, it will automatically gain momentum over time (this conversation with you represents the start of that avalanche). Even my introduction to LU was by happenstance ... there was no guarantee that "I" would have been interested in the concept of no-self, and then would have found LU like I did. And even if I didn't, life would go on, "I" would die, and that would be that.

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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Andrei » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:55 pm

I can tell that I still have a long way to go before my life/perspective/orientation is restructured around this (VERY) subtle realization.
Im more of an optimist here. Judging by how fast you seen through the self I think you`re doing good in this dis-identification process so dont be too harsh on yourself. One step at a time and try to have fun with it.
Also every journey is different. After "gating" some feel a release of some sort, others feel very emotional. Believe it or not I felt angry. Angry at all the BS pseudo-spirituality and gurus I`ve read through out the years and how easy was to reach the truth if only I discovered LU sooner LOL. But of course everything happens when it happens.
I'm surprised by how subtle the realization is. Everything (what I see, hear, think, experience, etc) seems the same, but the mental model/frame that interprets it is slightly different now (the model/frame isn't separate from that which is being interpreted).
Thats exactly right! very well put! Its just a subtle change in how you interpret life. Nothing really changes but everything looks different. Like the saying goes, "before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water".

Ok Preety, here are the last set of queries. They are like a recap of all the things we talked about. Please take as much time as you need.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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colorized42
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby colorized42 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:30 am

Like the saying goes, "before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water".
Such a perfect description :)
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate self, and there never was. It's a construction, a sort of virtual reality, that is unnecessary for life/reality to flow.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It is a habitual tendency to immediately appropriate an experience, sensation, emotion, thought, etc. It asserts itself as the subject of feelings, the owner of objects, the victim of negative experiences, etc. This self-centered-ness gives rise to suffering.

It's a product of cultural conditioning. Our language, our way of relating to each other, social norms, etc all reinforce this concept of a self.

Life/reality flows onward, regardless of which direction the self wants it to flow toward.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
"I" feel lighter, calmer, quieter ... or in other words, there is lightness, calmness, and quiet being experienced. The present moment is at the forefront of experience, and thought is recognized as the engine behind the creation of a self.

The self still pops up, but it's slowly getting easier and easier to look through it.

Walking down the street, "I" am more in tune with the sensations I experience, the things that I see, and the noises that I hear. The body is more relaxed, and receptive to whatever experience that may come next.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
When you mentioned: "The click will happen when you will start seeing the "you" as nothing more than a thought appearing on your mind screen." That's exactly what happened! When thoughts started being noticed for what they were--the engine behind the self--the concept of the self started to unravel.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
These only exist in the context of a self. Only the virtual/constructed self can seemingly decide, will things to occur, choose, and control. However, in reality, there is no self, and anything that the body does (choosing, etc) is an emergent property of the very reality it is composed of. The zillions of interactions that constitute reality, this body, and everything else, give rise to all actions. "I" don't own these actions, and no one else does. Things just ... happen. There is no puppet master pulling on the strings.

As for responsibility ... bills still need to be paid, work still needs to be attended to, etc. The universe shot this clump of matter out in a certain direction where the body is already predisposed to enjoying a certain lifestyle, for which a certain amount of work (in exchange for monetary value) is required. This body is also predisposed to eating, sleeping, hanging out with friends, etc, etc ... and it will continue doing all of this ... just as before. It goes back to that lovely saying: "before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water". Now, the word "enlightenment" seems a little funny in retrospect ... the gateless gate metaphor makes sense!
6) Anything to add?
Also, just wanted to express a BIG thank you :) I had read a lot before joining the forum, but you helped me crystallize everything really well. Your guidance was much appreciated!

And I'm really looking forward to the additional resources you mentioned!

Gratefully,
Preety

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Andrei
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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Andrei » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:22 pm

Hi Pretty,
I very much enjoyed our conversation and Im glad I could be of assistance. I did tell you right from the beginning that as long as you are determined you will get there and you showed you were pretty serious about this whole thing.
I dont have any other questions. Im waiting to see if there are any other guides that might have any questions for you and this might take a while. Afterwards I will get back to you with the news :)

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Re: Requesting guidance

Postby Andrei » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:45 pm

I know we talked about this before but one of our guides has some questions:

What do you mean with this affirmation "anything that the body does (choosing, etc)".
Is the body choosing?
How do you see choices happening?
Give some examples from your experience.


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