Guide available.

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Sarah7
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Guide available.

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:23 pm

Hi my name is Sarah.
I am available and happy to guide anyone interested and ready to look.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Mlight1
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Mlight1 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:09 pm

Hi, Sarah

My name is Mike, I would like for you to guide me through this in order to better understand the "self" and clearly see what it is so I can verify what I have been gradually leaning towards more and more since this past September about it.

It seems now as if the "I" feeling is just thoughts being verified by other thoughts which associate themselves with the body. In trying to search for a legitimate "I" only thoughts in the form of words/images/feelings are found but how can I be sure? Thoughts have always been used to verify truth in life but after all this time linear reasoning has failed and proven unreliable, so how to check what is true without the use of thinking? Its like a bad habit you have realized is bad but hard to break.

Do you think you can guide me?

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:00 pm

Hi Mike
It will be my pleasure to speak with you.
How did you come to be here, have you been seeking for long?
Have you looked around our site? Do you know what we do here?
Hugs Sarah
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Mlight1
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Mlight1 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:48 pm

Hi Mike
It will be my pleasure to speak with you.
How did you come to be here, have you been seeking for long?
Have you looked around our site? Do you know what we do here?
Hugs Sarah
Great, thank you Sarah for taking the time out to help.

This started perhaps a year ago or longer when I began to question so many assumptions made about the World, about life, and why myself and everyone does what they do. I question how the same event can take place and one person can view the event as wonderful for example, another can view it as a tragedy, and another can have no real concern at all for the same event. I came to see that much of what I was doing in life, I could not come to an explainable reason for other than excepting view points that were not my own nor originated with me. After this I explored concepts about psychology and personal development. This led to exploring concepts about ego, personal self, and awareness. Looking into this led to concepts about non-duality and watching youtube videos created by popular teachers on the subject. What finally led me to this site was a link in a comment section on one of those videos about the subject. Looking back now it all seems kind of natural how it occurred and that "I" couldn't have possibly forced this in anyway, it just seems to have happened.

I have looked around the forum read the posts at the top about what takes place and several thread conversations. It appears you facilitate a self inquiry, asking questions that perhaps members have not or have up until now been unable to consider in order for them to check for themselves to find through direct experience what it is true or not.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:35 pm

Hi Mike
I know you have said you read the link but we need to just check before we start, these are a few house keeping standard ground rules:

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.
OK!
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Mlight1
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Mlight1 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:25 pm

Hi, Sarah

I have read the article, watched the video, understand, and agree to all of the above.

I anticipate the starting so where to begin from here?

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:49 am

Hi Mike
Forgot to say I normally post after work which will be around 5pm England time! Ok. Talk later.
S xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Mlight1
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Mlight1 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:05 pm

Hi Mike
Forgot to say I normally post after work which will be around 5pm England time! Ok. Talk later.
S xxx

Hi, Sarah

Sure so around early afternoon eastern U.S, I will do my best to be on during that time and can certainly post daily.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:33 pm

Hi Mike
No worries if there is a bit of delay till we get the routine up and working. Id rather thorough looking than response for the sake of. OK!

Lets get started then! Please let me know If I give you too much to do!

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Mlight1
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Mlight1 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:01 pm

Hi Mike
No worries if there is a bit of delay till we get the routine up and working. Id rather thorough looking than response for the sake of. OK!

Lets get started then! Please let me know If I give you too much to do!
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?
It is experienced as if a presence behind the eyes, something that cannot be pin pointed in the realm of though or clearly found.
For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?
Yes it appears to be at the center of experience as not a solid but permanent undefined entity in the head. There is the feeling that this is separate from everything else but has no clearly definable characteristics other than the sense of being. It does become more obvious when interacting with others or a situation arises that requires direct attention and other times no thought or awareness is given to the self. The self has no color, shape, texture or properties of physical reality that can be recognized. It feels as if the presence is housed in the body, associating with thoughts, feelings, and the body to conclude that it must exist inside the body because it is never anywhere else though all of that seems very unclear now upon analyzing, searching, and rationalization.
Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?
It feels like it is the sum of thoughts, feelings, and bodily sensations but lately when analyzing thoughts running and engaging in activities it was apparent that no thoughts or self actually performed these functions they just happened and I cannot explain this so there is a strong possibility that this self is nothing more than thoughts if action can be taken while an alleged self is busy analyzing thought. Since this inquiry started for me many months ago it appears to get weaker but comes back when socializing or when something that needs immediate attention takes place.
Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
When I look as always I find thoughts in the form of words/images about a self but no source of these thoughts that just arise mysteriously and dissolve into nothingness
Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
No, this is something that was made clear many months ago, past and future are very clearly 100% thoughts and there can be no time but now always. The universe is in constant change in the eternal present moment however there is the almost distinguishable sense that I cannot recognize and it is that something is always taking place and never changes regardless of what is going on.
Hugs Sarah xxx

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Mlight1
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Mlight1 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:40 am

Hi Mike
No worries if there is a bit of delay till we get the routine up and working. Id rather thorough looking than response for the sake of. OK!

Lets get started then! Please let me know If I give you too much to do!

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?
It is experienced as if a presence behind the eyes, something that cannot be pin pointed in the realm of though or clearly found.
For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?
Yes it appears to be at the center of experience as not a solid but permanent undefined entity in the head. There is the feeling that this is separate from everything else but has no clearly definable characteristics other than the sense of being. It does become more obvious when interacting with others or a situation arises that requires direct attention and other times no thought or awareness is given to the self. The self has no color, shape, texture or properties of physical reality that can be recognized. It feels as if the presence is housed in the body, associating with thoughts, feelings, and the body to conclude that it must exist inside the body because it is never anywhere else though all of that seems very unclear now upon analyzing, searching, and rationalization.
Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?
It feels like it is the sum of thoughts, feelings, and bodily sensations but lately when analyzing thoughts running and engaging in activities it was apparent that no thoughts or self actually performed these functions they just happened and I cannot explain this so there is a strong possibility that this self is nothing more than thoughts if action can be taken while an alleged self is busy analyzing thought. Since this inquiry started for me many months ago it appears to get weaker but comes back when socializing or when something that needs immediate attention takes place.
Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
When I look as always I find thoughts in the form of words/images about a self but no source of these thoughts that just arise mysteriously and dissolve into nothingness
Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
No, this is something that was made clear many months ago, past and future are very clearly 100% thoughts and there can be no time but now always. The universe is in constant change in the eternal present moment however there is the almost distinguishable sense that I cannot recognize and it is that something is always taking place and never changes regardless of what is going on.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:24 pm

Hi Mike
It feels like it is the sum of thoughts, feelings, and bodily sensations but lately when analyzing thoughts running and engaging in activities it was apparent that no thoughts or self actually performed these functions they just happened and I cannot explain this so there is a strong possibility that this self is nothing more than thoughts if action can be taken while an alleged self is busy analyzing thought. Since this inquiry started for me many months ago it appears to get weaker but comes back when socializing or when something that needs immediate attention takes place.
You say that doing happens without thought? Is that what you mean here? How is socializing different? Do you mean speaking here?
Can thoughts think? You say later that you don’t bring thought, do you send them away? Do you plan what thoughts to have before you think them? Do you control thought in any way?
What can thought do? What power does it have?
When I look as always I find thoughts in the form of words/images about a self but no source of these thoughts that just arise mysteriously and dissolve into nothingness
Good. Well noticed. And do these images carry stories? Stories are a collection of repeated thoughts. Do they carry emotions or sensations? What makes the link if they do? Is it thought?

OK – Im going to poke around a bit to find out where you are. This may mean I have to give you what may seem rather simple tasks. OK.

OK. An exercise looking at thought, labelling and ownership.

Id like you to just sit for 5-10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

Is the label water actually water? Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Mlight1
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Mlight1 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:37 pm

Hi Sarah
You say that doing happens without thought? Is that what you mean here? How is socializing different? Do you mean speaking here?
Yes like a bath or brushing teeth, while completely fixated on thoughts these tasks just get done with mental effort or attention that was not possible while thoughts were being so closely attended to. Socializing in person listening to someone addressing you with language, their eyes fixed directly on you strengthens the sense of self but this feeling is most likely thoughts about how you are in a conversation with a separate person. Speaking here is different the computer is an object which is all that is seen as opposed to anther person who believes 100% that you and they are separate entities.
Can thoughts think? You say later that you don’t bring thought, do you send them away? Do you plan what thoughts to have before you think them? Do you control thought in any way?
What can thought do? What power does it have?
The nature of thought is unclear to me, they exist and can be perceived but their contents are fiction and often inaccurate not representing truth. No, thoughts just dissolve on their own or vanish when other thoughts take their place as the focus of attention. I cannot plan what thoughts arise and have no control over them. Other than create deception or inaccurate depictions of reality thoughts do not do much at all other than come and go. To me thoughts do no have power exactly but they can be bothersome if unpleasant and given a great deal of attention to.


OK. An exercise looking at thought, labelling and ownership.
Id like you to just sit for 5-10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
I grab my book, I found paper to write, I get my pen from my jacket, I am sitting on the couch, I hear a dog barking and a car outside.
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?
Thoughts of writing, feeling pen in hand, feeling book in hand, feelings couch touching body, sound dog barking, seeing room, coffee taste.

It feels like there is extra effort with the added personal narrative, it feels like it is unnecessary. Without the first person added it feels much more natural and simpler.
If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?
It prompts an emotional response when ownership is implied, like panic or fear.
Is the label water actually water? Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?
No, the word water is just a thought label which converted to memorized language. What I noticed is when looking for a lighter the eye sees it first then the thought quickly follows "white lighter". Ownership is applied depending on the situation but usually when there is a problem to solve and thoughts about the future or preventative action which is silly because this is just imagery. This personal labeling for me does not happen as much with objects or people.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:41 pm

Hi Mike
Yes like a bath or brushing teeth, while completely fixated on thoughts these tasks just get done with mental effort or attention that was not possible while thoughts were being so closely attended to. Socializing in person listening to someone addressing you with language, their eyes fixed directly on you strengthens the sense of self but this feeling is most likely thoughts about how you are in a conversation with a separate person. Speaking here is different the computer is an object which is all that is seen as opposed to anther person who believes 100% that you and they are separate entities.
OK – so doing seems to happen regardless of thought – does speaking? I want you to pay close attention to speaking if possible. If forgetting happens no worries, just pick up where you left off. Do you know what is going to be said before the mouth opens and outcome words? Even if thought runs ahead – even if thought supposedly plans – what actually happens?
The nature of thought is unclear to me, they exist and can be perceived but their contents are fiction and often inaccurate not representing truth. No, thoughts just dissolve on their own or vanish when other thoughts take their place as the focus of attention. I cannot plan what thoughts arise and have no control over them. Other than create deception or inaccurate depictions of reality thoughts do not do much at all other than come and go.

Unclear to what – thought? :) So is thought waiting to understand thought? Lol. Well seen for the rest!
To me thoughts do no have power exactly but they can be bothersome if unpleasant and given a great deal of attention to.
OK – so see if you can pinpoint exactly what is bothersome and to what or whom. Where is this bothered thing? Is this thought again? Is this thought describing a feeling here or sensation? Is it labelling? Well if it is labelling – is water actually water – is the feeling of bothersome actually bothersome?
It feels like there is extra effort with the added personal narrative, it feels like it is unnecessary. Without the first person added it feels much more natural and simpler.
So you don’t apply the words to people or objects – what about doing? Is there a narrative running as you go?
It prompts an emotional response when ownership is implied, like panic or fear.
Are these ‘your’ feelings? Do they belong to you? Is there a thought narrative/story running with them? Images?
What notices the fear and the panic? Anything? Is that which notices fearful or panicky?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Mlight1
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Re: Guide available.

Postby Mlight1 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:41 pm

Hi Sarah

OK – so doing seems to happen regardless of thought – does speaking? I want you to pay close attention to speaking if possible. If forgetting happens no worries, just pick up where you left off. Do you know what is going to be said before the mouth opens and outcome words? Even if thought runs ahead – even if thought supposedly plans – what actually happens?
When thoughts about this arise there are just thoughts about which comes first. What is said does not necessarily reflect the thought, then after words are spoken there is thought commentary. This process happens very quickly and takes great attention to catch much like seeing the lighter then the thought label about what is seen. So no, there are thoughts about what to say and even not sometimes, speaking happens which is not directly associated with those particular thoughts, then thought commentary about what is said.

Unclear to what – thought? :) So is thought waiting to understand thought? Lol. Well seen for the rest!
Yes, it seems that way now, thoughts are trying to dissect their own nature and even the thought of a doer is not present even totally irrelevant when this takes place.
OK – so see if you can pinpoint exactly what is bothersome and to what or whom. Where is this bothered thing? Is this thought again? Is this thought describing a feeling here or sensation? Is it labelling? Well if it is labelling – is water actually water – is the feeling of bothersome actually bothersome?
Bothersome is a label to depict feeling but it is not the feeling itself, this process exposes how ineffective labels in describing experience. Yes it is thoughts labeling a sudden change in an emotional state and no feelings are just what they are at the time and like thoughts not permanent, they arise in response to what can be seen, heard, felt, tasted, smelled then thought commentary comes after.

So you don’t apply the words to people or objects – what about doing? Is there a narrative running as you go?
All of these are done but less and less lately since it is noticeable that direct experience is happenings and thoughts just comment to makes sense of it automatically. The nature of thoughts seem to be habitual compulsive labeling.
Are these ‘your’ feelings? Do they belong to you? Is there a thought narrative/story running with them? Images?
What notices the fear and the panic? Anything? Is that which notices fearful or panicky?
It is becoming more and more clear that they are just happening with no doer, if they could be owned unpleasant ones could be barred from direct experience but this is not so. After the feeling takes place thoughts create the narrative about why this is happening and what types of feelings this is. These are spontaneous as realistically all that is directly experienced is, now the entire basis for excessive planning in life seems silly and like a futile attempt to control life. It seems nothing really notices feelings now, there has been no evidence at all for a sense, thought, feeling "manager" in charge of these things. All that seems to happen is sense registers what is happening, a change in emotion can take place, and thoughts then mysteriously arise to assess and explain what is happening.


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