Triratna OM Guide please

[Dee]

Hello. I am a Buddhist within the context of Triratna, I have meditated for 15 years. I'm based in the UK. I believe I have some experience of dhyana. I sometimes doubt my meditation experiences as I'm not sure what it is about. I'd like to be guided by a Triratna OM.
Dee

[Dee]

I wonder what's happened. I had a reply to my request and now I can't see it. The reply was from Dridhamati. Any ideas? Am I looking in the wrong place?

[Damon Kamda]

There is a bit of a technical issue at the moment, some posts were probably lost. Our apologies for the inconvenience.

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati
Many thanks for your response.
1. I confirm I agree with the disclaimer.
2. Daily - yes please
3. Honesty - yes
4. I believe I understand and I'm able to experience direct experience - sensation through the 6 senses. Sensations in my body arising no passing away, I sometimes feel I am on the edge of experiencing directly - when everything expands - looking at a view, listening to sounds arising and passing away.
5. I Agree to challenge views and taboos

I'd like to break the fetters for the benefit of all beings, in this lifetime. See through this view I have of being this fixed self. I try to bring to mind the flow of impermanence during the day but I know I don't really know what it is to experience it. I'd like to be able to let go of selfish attitudes, greed, hatred.
I can see, intellectually, how phenomena are empty of fixed self, being dependent upon conditions which are constantly flowing .... But I don't really know it. I know everything is connected - but I' don't know it.
I've practised the 6 element practice and experienced the final stage as an expansion, letting go. Hard to describe. I'm not sure how any meditation experiences fit with the dharma I've been taught. How I can integrate it.
I want to be open and willing.
What do I expect? I don't know! I don't really want to set up any expectations if possible. The site had stopped working this afternoon and the cat's eye image appeared saying there is no seer only seeing - or something like that, and I got tingles in my stomach. I felt as if the experience of seeing shifted from Inside my head to somewhere out in front of my eyes. Ive no idea if that is useful to note.
I'd like peace. See through suffering. Be able to share that with others. I'm a bit bothered that I won't be successful. I'd like to experience the relief of not setting up boundaries that separate me from others - protecting self.
I've no idea whether this will set me on the path to any of that - I can only try. And I'm really aware that I use the word I a lot but that is where I am.

Thanks for agreeing to guide me,
D

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

By the way I take it it’s OK calling you Dee?

Many thanks for your response.
1. I confirm I agree with the disclaimer.
2. Daily - yes please
3. Honesty - yes
5. I Agree to challenge views and taboos

That’s great, thanks for that.

4. I believe I understand and I'm able to experience direct experience - sensation through the 6 senses. Sensations in my body arising no passing away, I sometimes feel I am on the edge of experiencing directly - when everything expands - looking at a view, listening to sounds arising and passing away.

Thank you for that, that’s helpful. It’s a good start into observing in direct experience, but it kind of stops short.
Here is a little exercise:
- clear a surface (table top) of all objects.
- place a mug in the centre.
- sit comfortably by the table.
- look at the mug.
Question: What is experienced in the field of vision? Please report using the barest qualifiers, or descriptors, without which communication could not occur.

I'd like to break the fetters for the benefit of all beings, in this lifetime. See through this view I have of being this fixed self. I try to bring to mind the flow of impermanence during the day but I know I don't really know what it is to experience it. I'd like to be able to let go of selfish attitudes, greed, hatred. I'd like peace. See through suffering. Be able to share that with others. I'm a bit bothered that I won't be successful. I'd like to experience the relief of not setting up boundaries that separate me from others - protecting self. I want to be open and willing.
What do I expect? I don't know! I don't really want to set up any expectations if possible.

”What do I expect? I don't know! I don't really want to set up any expectations if possible.”
And yet, please re-read the paragraph starting with: “I'd like to break the fetters...”

It’s OK Dee, expectations are part and parcel of the process. Pointing out this contradiction is useful to reveal the type of deception, lies, fraud that go on within the thought processes.

I've practised the 6 element practice and experienced the final stage as an expansion, letting go. Hard to describe. I'm not sure how any meditation experiences fit with the dharma I've been taught. How I can integrate it.

I am familiar, but not experienced with the 6 element practice.
And as far as meditation experiences go, perhaps these can be placed on a shelf for the time being. They can be revisited at the end of the dialogue, if still relevant.

I can see, intellectually, how phenomena are empty of fixed self, being dependent upon conditions which are constantly flowing .... But I don't really know it. I know everything is connected - but I' don't know it.

Hey, at least there is agreement with the ‘concepts’, that’s one big step. Now can the concepts be set aside, and make room for ‘seeing’, ‘realising’? That’s what this dialogue will be about.

The site had stopped working this afternoon and the cat's eye image appeared saying there is no seer only seeing - or something like that, and I got tingles in my stomach. I felt as if the experience of seeing shifted from Inside my head to somewhere out in front of my eyes. Ive no idea if that is useful to note.

Haha! Great picture eh? Without placing too much significance on a single observation, it seems something ‘connected’. And the sentence “I felt as if the experience...” is a very nice report of observation in direct experience. Let’s see what comes out of the exercise with the mug and we can come back to this.

Thanks for agreeing to guide me

And thanks for the opportunity to guide.

All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi again Dee,

There has been a bit of a problem with the LU site today. Hopefully the admins have sorted it out.
One of them has very kindly managed to retrieve the last answer to your post.

A nice test for equanimity...

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

I sent this last night ... Thanks Dridhamati. Please do call me D or Dee or d! Whatever is more convenient. I'm on my way home from work. I may need to get back to you late tomorrow. Is that OK? I take all your pioints. Mug on table asap! D

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati Yellow mug. Wood coloured table. I relaxed and prepared as if about to meditate - sense of metta. Then I wondered if I should do that, but I'd done that anyway. I tried to just look - rather than stare. I felt I was forcing as I was looking. I looked around and went back to the mug and tried to get the narration out of my thought "what is in the field of vision?" I gazed. The mug changed colour a bit and I noticed I gave it a reason - my retiner (eye) doing something with the yellow of the mug. Part of the mug disappear and I decided that was not what was the point of the exercise. I continued. The mug disappeared and it gave me a jolt - like going too quickly over a bridge in a car. I decided that was not supposed to happen as that was not the exercise in hand. Back again to looking. Parts of the mug continued to fade. Most of the mug and the table appeared to be the same - more table like than mug - but not table either as the perspective had changed. I stopped and decided I had done enough! So i turned back and I thought I would gaze again. All of the mug disappeared from my vision and became table-like - I could not see the (imitation) wood lines but the view was more table like/coloured. I felt "butterflies" in the top of my stomach and sensations in my chest (I can describe it as an adrenalin type of feeling?). I am doubting - perhaps I didn't do what was expected. Just letting you know that.
Looking forward to feedback. D

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Thank you for this first report.

Direct experience is just that: what is immediately, directly experienced.
This first exercise is about observing and reporting on the experience of watching an object (a mug in this instance) set on a surface.

So what I would like you to do now is review your report and eliminate everything that’s not related to ‘what is experienced in the field of vision’ when looking at the mug.

For example:

I relaxed and prepared...

Does this need to be included?

Don’t be afraid to hack into the text. Think of it as weeding a garden to allow the flower to emerge. :-)

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi again Dridhamati Yellow mug. Wood coloured table. The mug changed colour a bit ... Part of the mug disappeared ... The mug disappeared ... Parts of the mug continued to fade. Most of the mug and the table appeared to be the same - more table like than mug - but not table either as the perspective had changed. All of the mug disappeared from my vision and became table-like - I could not see the (imitation) wood lines but the view was more table like/coloured.

Or
Yellow mug. Wood coloured table. .????

D

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Serious weeding has happened, that’s great.

So,

Yellow mug. Wood coloured table.

What exactly in the field of vision states that what seen were a ‘yellow’ ‘mug’ and a ‘wood coloured’ ‘table’?
In other words:
What, in the experience in the field of vision (that is: seeing), tells you there's a ‘yellow’ ‘mug’ and a ‘wood coloured’ ‘table’?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi again - I think I've got out of sync with the replies, sorry, and I'm struggling with the quote feature but I'll try using it again later. Yellow mug table - they are labels that I've learned to apply to those - I'm trying to not just say - sensations in contact with the eye organ. I know that but I'm not experiencing that. I think I have an expectation that something will happen!

I'll select the box that tells me when I have a reply. Thanks again d

[Dee]

I'm moving awareness around - using sight - through the eye. That goes to my "brain??" And I recall the label. Seeing light, dark, seeing separate objects. D

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Yellow mug table - they are labels that I've learned to apply to those

Yes, exactly, very well put.

I'm trying to not just say - sensations in contact with the eye organ. I know that but I'm not experiencing that.

Are you saying that you are not experiencing visual sensations? Could you please elaborate?

I think I have an expectation that something will happen!

It’s very tempting to try and provide thought out arguments.
Thoughts (as in ‘I think...’) can suggest all sorts of stuff in this kind of investigation, all manners of fancy stories and elaborations, and expectations of what should and shouldn’t be happening.
However this present exercise is about immediate, direct experience in the field of vision, leaving the thought processes aside.

I'm moving awareness around - using sight - through the eye.

I assume you mean shifting focus from ‘mug’ to ‘something else’?

That goes to my "brain??"

Does it? Is this the actual experience? Or is it another concept that was learned?

Seeing light, dark, seeing separate objects.

Do you really see ‘separate objects’?
If you park the thought that you’re seeing a ‘mug’ (an object) on top of a table (another object), is there anyway this separation can be experienced in the field of vision?

Good start Dee, keep it coming!

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hello Dridhamati. I just got an error using quotes so I've copied and pasted and removed the quotes. I'm hope it make sense.
Yellow mug table - they are labels that I've learned to apply to those
Yes, exactly, very well put.

I'm trying to not just say - sensations in contact with the eye organ. I know that but I'm not experiencing that. Are you saying that you are not experiencing visual sensations? Could you please elaborate?
I know the theory. I feel as if I can't just stay with the sensation. I feel like I'm adding descriptions on. I see colours and darkness. I am experiencing sensations of light and dark, colour.
I think I have an expectation that something will happen! It’s very tempting to try and provide thought out arguments.
Thoughts (as in ‘I think...’) can suggest all sorts of stuff in this kind of investigation, all manners of fancy stories and elaborations, and expectations of what should and shouldn’t be happening.
However this present exercise is about immediate, direct experience in the field of vision, leaving the thought processes aside.

I'm moving awareness around - using sight - through the eye. I assume you mean shifting focus from ‘mug’ to ‘something else’?
Yes I was moving the focus from mug to around table.

That goes to my "brain?? Does it? Is this the actual experience?Or is it another concept that was learned?
yes - learned

Do you really see separate objects
If you park the thought that you’re seeing a ‘mug’ (an object) on top of a table (another object),

is there anyway this separation can be experienced in the field of vision?

no! Ah! I though I got it then. But then the experience of focus and out of focus came in and caused doubt and confusion. There's a variety of colours and shades in my experience of looking. the edges look a bit blurred. I can't help "knowing" that they are separate items. Is focus a learned thing? If I look using my Poundland reading glasses then colours and light and dark are more vague. I am experiencing that.
I know the focus thing is my mind questioning

Best wishes Dee