Patty, your thread is here.

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Bill
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Patty, your thread is here.

Postby Bill » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:27 pm

Hello Patty,

I'm glad you want to come on the web site and do what we call a dialogue. This is a bit more structured and is many ways easier to follow than email or FB as a guiding medium. It seems to work well for most.

Please tell a bit about yourself.... how you came to be here... what you hope will happen as a result of being here.
Tell as much as you feel comfortable with.

Glad you're here!

Bill

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patty
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Re: Patty, your post is here.

Postby patty » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:13 am

Hi Bill !! :D

Thank you for having me here. I deeply appreciate your help in my "journey".

About me? Ha! This could take days :P Cliff notes version: Since I was a child, I knew I was not the body. It just happened, here I was, inside this body that I had thought was me, walking around in it and freaking out my family when I mentioned it (was fun though!) and getting put in the equivalent of a Sunday school/moral science class thing (not that fun) that I ofcourse rebelled against and thus ended my "search" for an answer.

Fast forward...wayyy fast forward to last year. I had, over the years developed a firm belief in God as an actual living presence in my life...whose unconditional love and guidance through dreams was a real live experience for me that I rarely talked about. But there was something missing. I wanted to reach the "goal" of being one with God but didn't know how to do that.

Last year, after a series of what I can only describe as "what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" years, that I'm still amazed I survived, I finally hit rock bottom, in every material sense circumstantially, but more important, internally. I completely lost the will to live. I prayed for guidance, for knowing the purpose foe this life ..and the next day, I discovered a book about universal laws and it was like a flood of light got switched on in my life and through UPS and downs, that feeling never left me again. A feeling of my heart bursting open and literally love and light flowing out to everything and everyone around me. It didn't stay that was in intensity but did in...feeling...
.that still persists.

Then I read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" and eventually "Stillness Speaks" and I am unable to describe its impact in words, just as I'm unable to describe the feeling when someone pointed out to me that I was not my thoughts, that I was the awareness perceiving those thoughts. Wow, who would've 'thunk' that!! :)

I had the most amazing series of stnchronocities happen since then leading me to very recently finding out about this website and forum and realizing (OMG) that it felt almost like coming home to a family that actually spoke my language (of which I'm in the kindergarten stage of, but still!!).

Then you suggested I join this forum for a more direct dialogue, after I realized that the statement about the 'I' just being a thought...resonated so very deeply ..as I've been trying to explore the question : if I conceptually understand the concept of everything everywhere, 'inside' and 'outside' being one (oh I also read some non dual writings such as by Steven Norquist, Francis Lucille etc).....and I was wondering why there was still a perceived "barrier" separating 'inside' from the 'outside' since that body-barrier to me was very real. I could not understand it away. The gate to me was real and though I just "knew" what I was reading was true, I could not figure out how to get beyond it, because I didn't want to pretend it wasn't there. It really had to be me experiencing myself as the wi d, the sky, the one looking out at them...experiencing it vs thinking it. And I didn't know how to do that.

And then you said I dont need to wrap my mind around it. That 'I' was just a thought and thought does not think itself.

Yep, things that make you go hmmm I did not think of it that way.

I've been trying to think of it today, but life got busy and I shoved it away but it keeps coming back. If "I" am just a thought, who the heck is doing the thinking? No I dont know the answer to that.....yet.

Fair warning : I might be the longest pointee here yet, in terms of "getting it" because an amazing soul had been trying to talk to me about non duality but I just couldn't click into experiencing it vs understanding it but this thing about "I" being a thought, is pretty revolutionary for me.

What I hope to gain through this process - well, I hope to experience vs understand non duality as more than a mind-based understanding and to just be it....experience the oneness with the sky, trees, wind, the one perceiving it - all as one, not just in my head but as an actual experience.

Also, I cannot even begin to describe how awesome it felt to read up about direct pointing and the absolute clarity and simplicity of the process vs say the Tao-esque riddled and roundabout way of explaining concept which tend to short circuit my brain. As in my life and how I prefer to be....direct, clear cut, even if it involves metaphors is how I like to approach things and I know I'm the only one who can walk through the gate but its such a relief when the map to it has you know, straight arrows vs a maze :P (the fault lying entirely in my understanding, not in the Tao type teachings).

And that looooong and boring post was actually the cliff notes version! Can you imagine if I had elaborated ! :P

Thank you again. I truly deeply appreciate you taking the time out of your life to help point me towards this and I have no words to express what I feel that anyone would bother to spend so much time so selflessly, just to help someone else "get it". I am beyond grateful for the opportunity. (I.e. If you don't kick me out for typing too much or for 'just not getting it' :P )

Thank you !!

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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby Bill » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:25 am

Thank you Patty for the extensive post.
It's helpful to know where people have been and what they have done up till now.
We might come back to some of this as the dialogue goes on.
You sound like you are very ready for this.

Please take a look at the disclaimer page of LU here,

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

and watch the short video on 'looking',
http://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c

it's very helpful...


Some workings guidelines that I would like your agreement on:

1) Agree to post daily or email if you are not able. You can post more often if you want.

2) Please set aside any other spiritual practices during this inquiry. This would include any discussion groups
of a religous or spiritual nature. Note - this is only for the course of this dialogue.

3) I will ask questions and you answer.... mostly just answer without thinking..
just look at what comes up..
Answer to the very best of your ability at that time
Try to avoid 'spiritually correct' answers. If you know what I mean.
And answer all questions given... they do build upon each other.

4) If you do agree to the above....please share what your expectations are to see through the illusion of the separate self, and of any concerns/fears about that?

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and are in agreement, we can go ahead and get started.

Bill

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patty
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:52 am

Thank you Bill :)

Yes I agree, to the disclaimer and agreements. I'll have to watch the video tomorrow morning or a little later this tonight if I can.

Email you if I can't post - any particular email address? (FB msg ok?) if I can't get on to this site like earlier today?
4) If you do agree to the above....please share what your expectations are to see through the illusion of the separate self, and of any concerns/fears about that?
-- I have no expectations, just a curiosity. What I believe the 'no-gaters' might be talkng about is that everything stays as is, its just how I look at it that might change, I could be wrong, I'm here to find out, with an open mind, regardless of what I find or don't find.

Concerns/fears? None. Though at one point I did worry that if I truly realize that all is me, omg how lonely would that be. But you folks seem to be doing fine so how bad could it be right? :) And if the world comes crashing down around me, there's always mindless tv-watching to get back to...win-win ;) just kidding :)

Thank you again, I appreciate you taking the time to do this ! Hugs !!

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patty
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:40 pm

Bill

I've watched the (very cool video). Yes, the desire has definitely been strong and I'm very open to whatever I may see, including "me" just being a thought (that resonates deeply but I don't "feel" it yet.

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patty
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:55 pm

Also, I had been contemplating that the 'I' could be just a thought and I apologize if I'm jumping ahead, but if "I" is just a thought, how can I feel pain? If I bite my lip, I feel pain. If "I" didn't exist, why/how would this very real pain be perceived ? If 'I' is just a thought, why am "I" (the I that I think I am) actually feeling it? How can that not be real?

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Bill
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby Bill » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:01 pm

Nice work Patty,

Yes, you seem to very much have the desire....This is good as there really is no substitute for it.
Yes you are jumping ahead a bit... we will get to that question later on.
I will tell you that we normally ask you to answer your own questions that you bring up, as we know that none of us really have any 'better' answers than anyone else. You can give it a shot now (your question) if you want... or save it for later.

You didn't seem to have many expectations for this, but whatever ones you do have. let's leave all these here right now.... and if we need to come back and visit them, we can. Just drop any you might be harboring as best you can and be ready for whatever comes. An open mind as best you can do.

I can see your focus has been heavily on the conceptual, like many of us... we will take a little different approach here. We want to move from the conceptual down to the experiential and on what you can see, hear, feel and touch... What's in front of us... What we know to be real. Thoughts are real for sure, but the content is usually suspect. So we will focus on you LOOKING at what comes up for you with each answer from your direct experience.

So Patty, to start off.... tell me what comes up for you.... thoughts, feelings, perceptions.... when I say that there is no you in the real world? No 'you' thinking your thoughts. No 'you' living your life. Its just an illusion. This 'you' that you think you are can't be found anywhere in the real world, except as a thought.
Something is living your life, but its not 'you'. Look at your reaction to this.
What is it?

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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:30 pm

So Patty, to start off.... tell me what comes up for you.... thoughts, feelings, perceptions.... when I say that there is no you in the real world? No 'you' thinking your thoughts. No 'you' living your life. Its just an illusion. This 'you' that you think you are can't be found anywhere in the real world, except as a thought.
Something is living your life, but its not 'you'. Look at your reaction to this.
What is it?
Reaction 1 : Peace, the feeling of ' letting go, just letting things happen'

Reaction 2 : But there is someone picking s thought out of say two reactions to a situation....someone is here perceiving what is being experienced/observed. So how could "I" be a pure illusion. Unless, "I" am not choosing...unless "choosing" itself is a thought...picked by the thought of "I". Its still an intellectual concept for me though.

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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby Bill » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:02 am

hi Patty,
But there is someone picking s thought out of say two reactions to a situation....someone is here perceiving what is being experienced/observed. So how could "I" be a pure illusion. Unless, "I" am not choosing...unless "choosing" itself is a thought...picked by the thought of "I". Its still an intellectual concept for me though.
ok.. just know you don't have to 'get' it yet Patty :) we're just starting....
a question for the above: who or what is choosing? Can you find a chooser?
Look for one... not in thought, but in reality? Is a chooser here?

We want to look at thoughts particularly in this dialogue.
Our thoughts are huge in our experience.

Can you tell me where your thoughts arise from?

Where do they originate?

Are the thoughts yours?

As in all the questions... use the looking method to find your answer.
That is, what is your direct experience.
Find out all you can about this 'looking'... if there's a key, this is it.

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patty
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:13 am

a question for the above: who or what is choosing? .
I thought there was 'someone' here doing the choosing but when I look, its as if there are two thoughts and one gets experienced without an actual choosing happening. At other times, an urge towards one option e.g. setting priorities on a to-do list, but further looking makes it seem like those are just thoughts about choosing.
Can you find a chooser? .
No. I see a thought "I should drink coffee right now vs not" but I don't know who's actually choosing that thought.
Look for one... not in thought, but in reality? Is a chooser here? .
No.
Can you tell me where your thoughts arise from?
Where do they originate? .
I dont know. They seem to just come and go
Are the thoughts yours? .
No. They seem random or responsive to situations.
As in all the questions... use the looking method to find your answer.
That is, what is your direct experience.
Find out all you can about this 'looking'... if there's a key, this is it .
Hmm I'll have to let this one simmer a bit

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patty
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:09 am

Find out all you can about this 'looking'... if there's a key, this is it .
Would you mind elaborating on this?

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patty
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:40 am

Trying to do more looking as I understand it. Everything seems to be just happening. Thoughts arise, thought seems to pick other thought, things seems to be...happening away. I can't seem to find an "I" doing any of it. So where am I.

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patty
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:45 am

Still looking. Thoughts thinking. Doing happening. Observing but no "I" that I can find doing the observing.

"Pain" appears to be a thought about a body response. Dig nail in finger...thought....ouch ..thought...actual pain= thought about body's response....does not appear to have an I actually "experiencing" pain other than as thought if this makes sense.

Going to think about this more today.

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Bill
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby Bill » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:24 pm

Hi Patty,

Good job. Nice looking. Looks like you are describing nicely what is happening in your post above.

Looking is the key to this 'process' if you can even call it a process... its really not a process
but for lack of a better word we'll call it that.
We've spent our whole lives reading about and thinking about all of 'this'.. but
rarely, if ever have we taken a 'look' for ourselves. We've been told that someone else's look and thoughts
are more valuable than what is happening in the experience we are in. Intuitively we know
this is wrong, yet we've not been shown how to actually look at reality to test it for ourselves.

'Looking' as we define it here, is simply seeing what's here.. in our direct experience.
Prior to thought you might say, but that is hard to do as thought jumps in and labels as soon
as anything is perceived. Looking is a glimpse usually and not a place we can stay continuously as
the mind jumps in and thoughts come up on their own. Looking is what is needed to see thru the illusion,
and I encourage you to find out all you can about it. There are many things written on this site about it.
Dig around and find all you can about it.

I want to continue our look at thoughts...Some other questions for you....You said you don't know where thought come from.....

Where are they (the thoughts) going?

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Again... take your time with each of these and use the 'looking' vs thinking method to answer.

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patty
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Re: Patty, your thread is here.

Postby patty » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:01 pm

Thank you Bill ! I truly appreciate your taking the time to do this with me! :)

I haven't read through the site much since I didn't want to color the process with anything I read, but I'll explore it soon

I'll answer your questions soon :)


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