Seeking a Guide

[Myrmidonktm]

I would very much like a guide to help push me onward :)

[Vivien]

Hi Myrmidonktm,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

We will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

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If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Love, Vivien

(How can I call you?)

[Myrmidonktm]

Thank You Vivian :)

You may call me by my first name, Kevin. I have been on my path for quite a long time, mostly on and off. However close to a year ago I became shall we say "full-time". I understand intellectually that there is no-self, just ego(thought), but have not experienced this directly. I haven't Seen it to Know it.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?

I have none. I do not want to give myself answers about what this means.

How will Life change?

How will you change?

Don't know

What will be different?

I would say quite a bit. I, like many others, have spent my life viewing everything from "me" and my point of view.
I am very much looking forward to working with you and greatly appreciate the time and effort :)
Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

--

I am very much looking forward to working with you and greatly appreciate the time and effort :)

You’re welcome :)

About expectation: That’s good if you don’t have any expectations about this. But if any expectation shows up during our conversation, please mention it.

Every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

OK then, let’s start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

From now on, I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

Yes, that would be fair statement.

What does the word 'I' point to?

That I would point to the person sitting here in the chair.

What makes this body ‘yours’?

It is the "vehicle" that carries my "me" around and interacts with the world. It is my Ego's house so to speak.

What makes this body ‘you’?

I actually, at a deep level, do not see this body as "me". This was the first thought that came when I read the question. Again, the Ego's house. I would say "I am over here" as a reference to location only.

Thanks :) , Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

It is the "vehicle" that carries my "me" around and interacts with the world. It is my Ego's house so to speak.

OK, now we try to find this so called ‘ego’.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.
But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Thanks Vivian, I shall spend the day with this and get back to you this evening.

Kevin

[Myrmidonktm]

Can be found what is seeing them?

No

Do you see a seer?

No

Can be found what is seeing them

No
I have applied this throughout the day and have not been able to find anything at all that is doing the seeing

Thanks, Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

I have applied this throughout the day and have not been able to find anything at all that is doing the seeing

Very good looking :)

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Do you think thoughts or you are there only thoughts about you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Take your time.

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Thank You Vivian

Where thoughts come from?

They arise on their own

Where are they going?

Arise then fade away

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Yes
[quoteCan ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
][/quote]
Absolutely No

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No, they arise on their own

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

I do not know

What is the thinker of thoughts?

Thoughts seem to arise on their own except when problem solving a specific task.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

When searched for the thinker cannot beyond found

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

The "I" could be a thought. When asked the mind goes silent.

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

Nice looking :)

I’ll wait with my reply while you answer to the remaining questions.

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

There is something that influences thoughts. Executes tasks, like deciding to make coffee then making it.

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?

I see no way for a thought to be owned. It arises then passes

What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

I see nothing that the thoughts can belong to, no way for them to be owned.

Do you think thoughts or you are there only thoughts about you?

Thoughts are certainly not Me, about "me" yes.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

In my experience thoughts in general cannot be prevented and will arise on their own, including the thought of "I" and "me" and "my".

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

Vivien: What is the thinker of thoughts?

Kevin: Thoughts seem to arise on their own except when problem solving a specific task.

What is the ‘thing’ that is thinking the problem solving thoughts?
Where is this ‘thing’ exactly? – find it.

Vivien: “I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

Kevin: I do not know

Then look. Is there a thinker of thoughts?
Is there anything ‘doing’ the thinking?
If yes, where is it exactly?

Vivien: Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

Kevin: When searched for the thinker cannot beyond found

And when not searched for is there a thinker of thoughts or is it just assumed to be there?
Don’t think about the answer, but look.

Vivien: Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Kevin: The "I" could be a thought. When asked the mind goes silent.

“The ‘I’ could be a thought” – Could be or is it just a thought? Find it out.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the mind?

There is something that influences thoughts. Executes tasks, like deciding to make coffee then making it.

OK, then go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser ‘I’ be located?

Love, Vivien

[Myrmidonktm]

Great stuff Vivian :)

What is the ‘thing’ that is thinking the problem solving thoughts?
Where is this ‘thing’ exactly? – find it.

There is nothing but thought here. Thought decides what needs to happen, thought decides how to do it.

Then look. Is there a thinker of thoughts?
Is there anything ‘doing’ the thinking?
If yes, where is it exactly?

There is only thinking, no thinker to find.

And when not searched for is there a thinker of thoughts or is it just assumed to be there?

The thinker was always assumed to be there. Not now. Thoughts without a thinker.

“The ‘I’ could be a thought” – Could be or is it just a thought? Find it out.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the mind?

The actual experience is "Thoughts about thinking thoughts".

if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

No. The thought arises to make the coffee and thought takes it from there. Thought makes the coffee.

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?

The thought "I want a ..."

Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?

No. The thought of what my thought of the taste does.

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

Happens automatically

Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?

Happens automatically

Can a chooser ‘I’ be located?

No, just thought.

Thanks Vivian !!!!
Kevin

[Vivien]

Dear Kevin,

There is nothing but thought here. Thought decides what needs to happen, thought decides how to do it.

and

No. The thought arises to make the coffee and thought takes it from there. Thought makes the coffee.

Can a thought decide?
Can a thought do anything?
Or are there only thoughts appearing ABOUT decision?
Can you see the difference?

The thinker was always assumed to be there. Not now. Thoughts without a thinker.

Beautiful :)
So, there is no thinker of thoughts, then let’s see what the body really is.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from the senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or outside?

What is the body in the actual experience?

Love, Vivien