Thread for Igor

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Thread for Igor

Postby Vivien » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:17 pm

Hi Igor,

this thread is for you. We will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

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If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?


Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Igor » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:09 pm

Hi Viviene,
first I want to thank for being my guide.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?

Hmmm, my expectations are simply to be once and for all clear that "I" as such doesen't exist. I really wan't to stop
identifie with "body-mind" cause here it gets very sticky for me cause of "my" illness "MS" and many unplesant senssations etc.

How will Life change?

I really don't know, from experience i know only there is more flow and a more fully way of living life.

How will you change?

Hmmm, i don't really care about this.

What will be different?

Everything and nothing.

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Vivien » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:42 pm

Dear Igor,

Every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through the expectations. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
my expectations are simply to be once and for all clear that "I" as such doesen't exist. I really wan't to stop
identifie with "body-mind" cause here it gets very sticky for me cause of "my" illness "MS" and many unplesant senssations etc.
“I really want to stop identify with ‘body-mind’” – there is no nothing that could identify with the ‘body-mind’ or anything.

And yes, illness could be a drive in wanting to see through the illusion of the separate individual, but life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.
Vivien: What will be different?
Igor: Everything and nothing.
Here, I’d like to mention 3 important things regarding this inquiry:
  • (1) “Everything and nothing” – is a very common statement in ‘spirituality’. However, it’s very important that ALL your comments come from YOUR own experience and from what other ‘teachers’ or ‘gurus’ said or wrote. I suppose from you FB comments that you do a lots of reading.

    (2) Please don’t try to be careful with the language, systematically avoiding the word ‘I’. If you do that then I’m not able to help you, because I cannot see where you’re at the moment. So please, use the language that feels/sound the TRUEST for you at the moment. This is very important. I need your 100% honesty. Don’t write anything that is not 100% true for you at the moment.

    (3) For the time of our conversation, I’d like to ask you not to read or to watch any teachers, not to read any spiritual books or articles and spend as much time with this enquiry as you can. This is because it is easy to become confused when different sources are telling you different things, but most importantly, while you listening to or reading others, you miss doing your own inquiry. The more time and energy you invest in the better. I’ll give you lots of questions so you won’t have time to read others.
    So can you accept this? Is this doable for you?
Is there any other expectation you didn’t mentioned yet? What about the small ones?

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.
I really wan't to stop identifie with "body-mind"
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?


From now on, I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Igor » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:38 am

Hi Vivien,
I go through the expectations. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
I have not noticed any resistance while I read to any of it.
And yes, illness could be a drive in wanting to see through the illusion of the separate individual, but life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.
Im clear about that. I was a seeker also before my illness.
(1) “Everything and nothing” – is a very common statement in ‘spirituality’. However, it’s very important that ALL your comments come from YOUR own experience and from what other ‘teachers’ or ‘gurus’ said or wrote. I suppose from you FB comments that you do a lots of reading.
I was honest with this answer cause it is from my own experience that it is so. I have no intention to pretend.
(3) For the time of our conversation, I’d like to ask you not to read or to watch any teachers, not to read any spiritual books or articles and spend as much time with this enquiry as you can. This is because it is easy to become confused when different sources are telling you different things, but most importantly, while you listening to or reading others, you miss doing your own inquiry. The more time and energy you invest in the better. I’ll give you lots of questions so you won’t have time to read others.
So can you accept this? Is this doable for you?
Yes, i can accept this. It is doable for me.
Is there any other expectation you didn’t mentioned yet? What about the small ones?
Yes i see in me a expectation to be at ease with sensations, to let them play out to not resist them.
Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?
Currently it really seems so yes.

What does the word 'I' point to?
Currently whille im writting this it points to me as the person writting this.
What makes this body ‘yours’?
In this moment when i check in I see that there is nobody to have a body so this question is solved.
What makes this body ‘you’?
In this moment when I check in, there is just the awarness of the body so im not "my body", this is clear to me.
Especially after these two questions from you.

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Vivien » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:16 pm

Dear Igor,
I was honest with this answer cause it is from my own experience that it is so. I have no intention to pretend.
All right. I don’t say that you’re not honest, I’m just saying that it’s easy to adopt others words. That’s all. :)
Vivien: What does the word 'I' point to?
Igor: Currently whille im writting this it points to me as the person writting this.
OK, then now we try to find the person who is writing this.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.

But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Igor » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:03 pm

Hi Vivien,
Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
No, here is only seeing but no seer!
Do you see a seer?
No!
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
No, it can't be cause it simply doesen't exist... Here is just seeing!!! Ok, i get this!

Love, Igor

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Vivien » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:58 pm

Dear Igor,
No, it can't be cause it simply doesen't exist... Here is just seeing!!! Ok, i get this!
Good :)

“I get this” – what is this ‘I’ that could get this?
Where is this ‘I’ exactly?


Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts now. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?


Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Do you think thoughts or you are there only thoughts about you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?


Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Take your time.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Igor » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:29 pm

“I get this” – what is this ‘I’ that could get this?
Where is this ‘I’ exactly?
Just a thought, in reality this I does not exist.
Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts now. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
it seems that out of nowhere, they just appear.
Where are they going?
I don't know that, they simply disappear into nothing.
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Hmmm, NO, it simply disappears when i try too.
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
No, i can't.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Not realy, no. But it would be nice...
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
I can't find it so my answer is no.
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
This I is just a thought. The one that thinks is just a thought.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Absolutely not, it instantly disappears.
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Sure, the I that thinks is also just a thought, hmmm...
Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
No, there isn't.
Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
No.
Do you think thoughts or you are there only thoughts about you?
No, there are only thoughts aobut me.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
No, i was never been able to do that


Thank you Vivien!
Love, Igor

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Vivien » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:09 am

Dear Igor,
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Igor: Hmmm, NO, it simply disappears when i try too.
OK, let’s go a bit deeper here and investigate this ‘trying’ to stop a thought in the middle.
How this ‘trying’ happens exactly?
Vivien: Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Igor: Not realy, no. But it would be nice...
“It would be nice” – what wishes this?
Who cares about the painful or negative thoughts?

Vivien: Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Igor: Absolutely not, it instantly disappears.
This statement implies that there might be a thinker of thought that could disappear when it’s investigated.
Is there anything that could disappear?

Here is an interesting exercise on control.
Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.

When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling 'I' be located?
What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?
How is decision made?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Igor » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:26 am

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Igor: Hmmm, NO, it simply disappears when i try too.

OK, let’s go a bit deeper here and investigate this ‘trying’ to stop a thought in the middle.
How this ‘trying’ happens exactly?
It's not exactly a trying, it is just looking.
Vivien: Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Igor: Not realy, no. But it would be nice...

“It would be nice” – what wishes this?
The I thought wishes this, hmm.. ok
Who cares about the painful or negative thoughts?
The I cares about them but the I doesen't exist, hmm... ok.
Vivien: Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

Igor: Absolutely not, it instantly disappears.

This statement implies that there might be a thinker of thought that could disappear when it’s investigated.
Is there anything that could disappear?
No, it can't disappear cause it never existet in the first place.
Here is an interesting exercise on control.
Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.

When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
It doesen't exist.
Can a controlling 'I' be located?
NO
What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
It doesen't exist. Choosing just happens.
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?
NO
How is decision made?
This one i don't have any clue about it. It seems to me that it just happens also.



Thank you, Vivien
Love, Igor

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Vivien » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:28 am

Dear Igor,
Vivien: “It would be nice” – what wishes this?
Igor: The I thought wishes this, hmm.. ok
Can a thought wish anything?
Can a thought do anything?
Can the I-thought do anything?

Or the I-thought is just a word (just any other word) in the appearing thought “I wish I could have only positive thoughts”? – look very carefully.

Vivien: Who cares about the painful or negative thoughts?
Igor: The I cares about them but the I doesen't exist, hmm... ok.
What is the ‘I’ exactly? (it CAN be found :)
Don’t just say it doesn’t exist… yes, the separate self doesn’t exist…

So, if there is no separate self (I) that could care about negative thoughts, then what is it exactly that cares?
What is the ACTUAL experience of caring about negative thoughts?

Viven: How is decision made?
Igor: This one i don't have any clue about it. It seems to me that it just happens also.
What if there are only appearing thoughts ABOUT decision, like “let’s put some milk into the coffee”?

An arising thought is ‘real’ only as an arising thought, but NEVER its content (what it’s about).


When there is a thought, it is obvious that it is there. (So the arising thought is ‘real’), but what it is ABOUT (its contents) are not. The content of thoughts is always imaginary. That there is a thought is clearly true; but their content is pure imagination.

There are two types of thoughts:
  • (1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
    (2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’
I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile.

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it? In Reality?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?


Over the course of the next few days, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) it is REALLY happening or the content it’s just pure imagination.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Igor » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:22 pm

Hi Vivien,
Vivien: “It would be nice” – what wishes this?

Igor: The I thought wishes this, hmm.. ok

Can a thought wish anything?
It can appear as a story about »to wish something« but it is just a empty story, by itself a thought can not wish anything.
Can a thought do anything?
In my experience, thought as such can't do nothing. Ther must be something which grasps the thought and start beliving the story of and begins to play with it and manifesting it... Mind blowing, my most honest answer is that I do not know this.
Can the I-thought do anything?
Or the I-thought is just a word (just any other word) in the appearing thought “I wish I could have only positive thoughts”? – look very carefully.
Nothing. It is just a word but with a strong identification potential for awarness.

Vivien: Who cares about the painful or negative thoughts?

Igor: The I cares about them but the I doesen't exist, hmm... ok.

Vivien: Who cares about the painful or negative thoughts?

Igor: The I cares about them but the I doesen't exist, hmm... ok.

What is the ‘I’ exactly? (it CAN be found :)
Don’t just say it doesn’t exist… yes, the separate self doesn’t exist…
The I is just a bunch of thougts, it exist only as thoughts, feelings, sensations...
So, if there is no separate self (I) that could care about negative thoughts, then what is it exactly that cares?
I see now, it is the separate self (I) which cares about negative thoughts.

What is the ACTUAL experience of caring about negative thoughts?
Interesting question, what is it? It seems that the »seperate self« is caring about negative thoughts so to say, thoughts are caring about negative thoughts. Is there such a thing as negative thought?
What makes a thought a negative thought? Another thought, that this thought should be diferent and not the way it is?...
Viven: How is decision made?

Igor: This one i don't have any clue about it. It seems to me that it just happens also.

What if there are only appearing thoughts ABOUT decision, like “let’s put some milk into the coffee”?
They are only appearing thoughts about decision.
I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile.

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
No, i can't.
Can you pour tea into it?
No, i can't.
Can you drink from it? In Reality?
No, i can't.
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Just an image of a cup.
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?
No, it isn't real.
The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
Yes, now im clear about this.


Thank you, Vivien
Love Igor

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Vivien » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:41 am

Dear Igor,
In my experience, thought as such can't do nothing. Ther must be something which grasps the thought and start beliving the story of and begins to play with it and manifesting it... Mind blowing, my most honest answer is that I do not know this.
“There must be something which grasps the thought and start believing the story…” – says a thought.

OK, find this something that could grasp a thought and start believing it. Where is this ‘thing’ exactly?

What is the ACTUAL experience of something grasping a thought?
What is the ACTUAL experience of something believing a thought?

Vivien: Can the I-thought do anything?
Or the I-thought is just a word (just any other word) in the appearing thought “I wish I could have only positive thoughts”? – look very carefully.
Igor: Nothing. It is just a word but with a strong identification potential for awarness.
“Strong identification potential for awareness” – how is this exactly known?
Can awareness do anything?

Your statement suggests that there is an independent awareness that could do things with independent objects. But is this REALLY the case?

What is the ACTUAL experience of an independent awareness?
Is there a standalone awareness somewhere outside of the actual experience?

Is there a thought without the awareness of it?
Is there awareness without any experience?

If so, where is the dividing line exactly between the thought and the awareness of it?
Where is the dividing line exactly between the experience and the awareness of it?

Where does a sensation end and the awareness of it starts?
Where does a sound end and the awareness of it starts?

Are there two things, ‘the awareness’ and the ‘awared’ (experience), or is there only one seamless experience?

The I is just a bunch of thougts, it exist only as thoughts, feelings, sensations...
Yes, the ‘I’ is just a thought, a word. Nothing more. Is this clear?

But if the ‘I’ is just a thought than how can it exists as a feeling or a sensation?
Can a thought be a feeling or a sensation?

I see now, it is the separate self (I) which cares about negative thoughts.
If the separate self is nothing more than a thought, then how could a thought care about other thoughts?

Can a thought do anything?
Can the I-thought care about anything, or do anything?


Look very-very carefully.
Is there such a thing as negative thought?
What makes a thought a negative thought? Another thought, that this thought should be diferent and not the way it is?...
Good questions… :) So please answer your questions….

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Igor » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:46 pm

“There must be something which grasps the thought and start believing the story…” – says a thought.



I can't find it, I can't define it.




“There must be something which grasps the thought and start believing the story…” – says a thought.What is the ACTUAL experience of something believing a thought?


Hmmm, there isn't any experience of it.

OK, find this something that could grasp a thought and start believing it. Where is this ‘thing’ exactly?
In this moment when i look at this question the question itself is ridiculous cause there is no "thing".
Vivien: Can the I-thought do anything?

Igor: Nothing. It is just a word but with a strong identification potential for awarness.

“Strong identification potential for awareness” – how is this exactly known?
Honestly, just seems like it identifies, it can't be exactly known.
Can awareness do anything?
It can do everything, pfu ... i don't really know this.

What is the ACTUAL experience of something believing a thought?
The ACTUAL experience of that is, lol, my mind goes blank by this question. Even when something is believing a thought there is awarness of it.
Is there a standalone awareness somewhere outside of the actual experience?
No.
Is there a thought without the awareness of it?
No, if it is unconscious maybe... but this is only a presumption.
If so, where is the dividing line exactly between the thought and the awareness of it?
Where is the dividing line exactly between the experience and the awareness of it?
There isn't any line.

Where does a sensation end and the awareness of it starts?
Where does a sound end and the awareness of it starts?
In my experience this can't be answerd. It just IS.
Are there two things, ‘the awareness’ and the ‘awared’ (experience), or is there only one seamless experience?
Only one seamless experience.
The I is just a bunch of thougts, it exist only as thoughts, feelings, sensations...

Yes, the ‘I’ is just a thought, a word. Nothing more. Is this clear?

But if the ‘I’ is just a thought than how can it exists as a feeling or a sensation?
Can a thought be a feeling or a sensation?
Hard question. As i see it, no it can't be there is thought + sensation etc.
I see now, it is the separate self (I) which cares about negative thoughts.

If the separate self is nothing more than a thought, then how could a thought care about other thoughts?
Pfu... it can't there is only caring.
Can a thought do anything?
No.
Can the I-thought care about anything, or do anything?
No
Is there such a thing as negative thought?
What makes a thought a negative thought? Another thought, that this thought should be diferent and not the way it is?...

Good questions… :) So please answer your questions….
As i see it now a negative thought is made by another thought which is saying this thought shouldn't be the way it is.



Thank you Vivien,
Love Igor

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Vivien
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Re: Thread for Igor

Postby Vivien » Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:31 am

Dear Igor,
Igor: Nothing. It is just a word but with a strong identification potential for awarness.
Vivien: “Strong identification potential for awareness” – how is this exactly known?
Igor: Honestly, just seems like it identifies, it can't be exactly known.
“SEEMS like it identifies…” – look closely this thought.
What makes it ‘seems like’, or is this just a thought appearing?

Vivien: Can awareness do anything?
Igor: It can do everything, pfu ... i don't really know this.
Awareness can do everything? What exactly?
Look carefully. Isn’t it just another thought?

Vivien: What is the ACTUAL experience of something believing a thought?
Igor: The ACTUAL experience of that is, lol, my mind goes blank by this question. Even when something is believing a thought there is awarness of it.
“My mind goes blank” – What is it that has a mind?
What is ‘mind’ in the ACTUAL experience?

“Even when something is believing a thought there is awareness of it” – How is this known exactly?
What is that something that could believe a thought?


If there were an awareness of believing a thought than that could be directly experienced.
So is there an ACTUAL experience of believing a thought, or are there only thoughts ABOUT it? – look very carefully.
Vivien: Is there a thought without the awareness of it?
Igor: No, if it is unconscious maybe... but this is only a presumption.
How an ‘unconscious thought’ is experienced?

Is there anything without experiencing it?
If yes, how it is known?

Igor: The I is just a bunch of thougts, it exist only as thoughts, feelings, sensations...
Vivien: Yes, the ‘I’ is just a thought, a word. Nothing more. Is this clear?
But if the ‘I’ is just a thought than how can it exists as a feeling or a sensation?
Can a thought be a feeling or a sensation?
Igor: Hard question. As i see it, no it can't be there is thought + sensation etc.
Is it clear that the ‘I’ is just a thought?

Thoughts might say that ‘this or that sensation is me’. But just because a thought say so, is this REALLY the case?


Say out loud the word ‘I’ several times. At the same time try to trace back where the word ‘I’ point to. Try to localize where is the ‘I’ exactly.

You can observe that whenever the word ‘I’ is said or even thought about the focus of attention goes automatically to the bodily sensations (usually somewhere to the upper body or head or both). So there is a direct, automatic association between the word ‘I’ and the felt sensations in the body.

So the word ‘I’ and the bodily sensations are welded together, creating the SENSE of ‘me’. The ‘sense’ part is coming from the felt sensations, and ‘me’ part is coming as a thought. When this is not seen, BUMMM! The illusion of ‘me’ is created. Can you see this?

So, can the ‘I’ be found in the actual experience other than a thought?

Vivien: If the separate self is nothing more than a thought, then how could a thought care about other thoughts?
Igor: Pfu... it can't there is only caring.
What is the ACTUAL experience of caring?
Can caring be experienced at all, or are there only thoughts appearing ABOUT caring?

As i see it now a negative thought is made by another thought which is saying this thought shouldn't be the way it is.
“A negative thought is made by another thought..” – can a thought do anything?
Or is there just another thought ABOUT a previous thought labelling it as ‘negative’?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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