Vel: Hi I've been going through the "process" for about a year now. Are there any forums where people share their experiences after the gate?
Canfora: Hi Vel,welcome to this group. When you say that you've been going through the "process" for about a year now, what do you mean? Were you guided by a LU guide?
Vel: Hi, I wasn't guided by a LU guide .The whole "spiritual" thing started for me years ago but I can't say I was very serious about that. I've read here and there a bit from everything,tried meditation and all kinds of nonsense . I've explored psychedelics.At some point read Jed McKenna's books probably about 100 times.And stumbled upon LU app on my phone , liked it very much then I've read gateless gatecrashers+LOOK the illustrated guide.Which kind of sealed the deal for me . What happens now is that I can easily detach from my ego or character.Also seems like it has a snowball effect.
Vel: I know what my ego is ,therfore "I" know the substance of the so called "me" which actually has no substance. Having said that "I" should mention that I disagree on a point which the guides at LU somehow always emphasise. Which is that everything is real, this maybe so but not true . This is where people get stuck.A "person" will think how come everything is real but I'm not. I know what the guides mean by that but for someone who is just starting to get a glimpse of noneduality this can be a step back.Or maybe I'm still holding to some opinions
Vel: Or maybe I'm still fooling "myself" maybe I didn't go through the gate. If you think that the case may be I'll be grateful if someone can undertake the task of pushing me through.
Canfora: What is the I for you right now? And what is the ego in your experience?
Vel: Hi thanks for your response.
I'll try my best to describe how I see it .Wow ...it's the first time I'll try to describe it in a written form. Also English is not my first language, please accept my apologies upfront.
Vel: Ok the way I see it is:
We're born in to this world with some hardwired characteristics,reflexes and instincts such as self preservation etc. But other than that we're born blank. From day one we start to learn (absorb external influences).
Vel: We learn the language and this is where everything starts to get labeled. Influences like parents, TV, culture etc. are the main contributors for the creation of the illusion of separation. The separation can only exist in the level of thought and language.
Vel: Also my inquiry into the matter led me to the understanding that something can exist as an object or a separate entity only in the mind. And that the universe is mental. Even if There're many levels of existence.
Vel: I think it safe to assume that by the age of 7y the personality is formed. From there we just build on top of it . layers on top of layers. Beliefs on top of beliefs.
All those beliefs are taken to be true not contested at all. Later in our teenage years when the hormones start to kick in the ego gets reinforced even more. We want to be someone special and so on and so forth.
Vel: Then the illusion is in full force. Our subconscious mind is programed.The brain forms spiderweb like neuropathways. The body becomes like a robot. The brain makes desisions based on previous conditioning.
There goes the free will out of the window.
In a way we decode the present based on previous reference points and conditioning.
Vel: It's even doubtful that we're capable of original thoughts.
The way I see it the brain is like a radio receiver. All thoughts exist already in a field of pure potentiality. The brain just downloads thoughts based on previous similar thoughts and experiences.
Vel: Therefore the"I" can never be taken seriously anymore from my prospective anyway.
Canfora: Vel, thank you for answering. English isn't also my first language. You just answered one of LU "final" standart questions: 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Canfora: "It's even doubtful that we're capable of original thoughts. The way I see it the brain is like a radio receiver. All thoughts exist already in a field of pure potentiality. The brain just downloads thoughts based on previous similar thoughts and experiences."
Is this something that is your experience or a theory about reality? Are you sure that thoughts exist in a field of pure potentiality?
Canfora: That a container of thoughts exists?
Vel: The ego is something which is always changing .Expl 10 years ago I was a different person, my personality was operating with different beliefs. Now those beliefs and assumptions are gone.So I can see how my ego is decomposing on a daily basis.
Vel: Sorry I got carried away
Canfora: Enthusiasm is a very good thing but as a guide my role is to ask very focused questions about what you can SEE going on in your experience. Is that ok? For example, what is the ego in your experience? Can you find something in your experience that is this ego that you talk about?
Canfora: Do you think you are the ego?
Vel: "Vel, thank you for answering. English isn't also my first language. You just answered one of LU "final" standart questions: 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now."
The "I" is a word which I use for the sake of conversation that's all it is
Vel: No .I'm not the ego.The way I can describe ego is like a mental construct, sum of memory and experiences. I can't even attach feelings to "it".Feelings to my understanding are just body chemistry, hormones, electrical impulses and who knows what
Vel: I can't say that I exist as I separate entity. Nope. There's a body, a brain all kinds of physiological processes happening without my conscious effort. 5 senses which are more like extentions of my brain and nervous system.
Canfora: How about thoughts - are you the thinker of thoughts, can thoughts be choosed or controlled? What is doing the thinking?
Vel: I can't take my separate existence seriously anymore.
I still have a personality which I have to display to function in day to day life. But I'm having difficulties impersonating " myself"
Canfora: Let's go to Q3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Vel: Ok about thoughts:
I can't really control them. Thoughts just come from somewhere.Like I said earlier "my little theory" based on observation is that thoughts just come on automatic based on previous conditioning.
Vel: You're asking me to report the difference from before we've started this dialogue.but we've started only few hours ago. So nothing has changed
Vel: On the other hand if you asked me what has happened from the past year that's another story.
Vel: These days I can't be around people much.I find being alone to be adequate. In my work conversations are becoming very forced. I find it difficult to converse much past the weather.
Vel: In fact I've tried to go back to my previous behaviour but I find it difficult and artificial.I can't say that I feel depressed or anything. But on the other hand I've lost my ambitions, some days I just prefer to be completely alone.
Vel: I don't get any satisfaction of watching TV, just listening to the news is hilarious sometimes.
Vel: I used to be a very social guy, but not anymore.I feel like I have to fake it all the time. Also it seems like it has a snowball effect.It gets stronger over time.
Vel: These days also I don't feel the need to defend my opinions.If someone disagrees with me I just don't care.
Vel: I don't get angry anymore but sometimes I get mild frustration when I'm around people who emphasise on trivialities
Vel: I don't know what else to say
Canfora: Those are beautiful answers, thank you. Seeing that a separate self doesn't exist can have different effects to different persons. Thank you again for describing your experience.
Some of the questions I'm asking you are LU "standard final" questions (the ones that are numbered). We ask these questions to all the persons that are guided or have already seen the illusion, as a way to see if there is clarity in that seeing or more/some guiding is needed.
Maybe they don't fit exactly your case, like the last one, but we ask them without changing the wording. The next question I'm going to ask you Q4 below is about what made you see that there is no separate self - if there was a specific thing that made you see.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Vel: Sorry I can't give you a short answer.
I understood the concept for many years (only intellectually)
Two years ago I've started with J.M. spiritual autolysis which was like a splash with cold water in winter. Then I've read the LU phone app (which is excellent btw) and the LU books. But I could still not give up.Then I had a very profound mystical experience with psychedelics where I could clearly see the unity of the perceived world how nothing is separate from the other. It was powerful ego destroying experience. Then everything not only made sense to me but I could clearly see that it can not be otherwise.
Canfora: ... sounds like a fun ride, Vel!
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Vel: As from that day I saw clearly not only the illusion of the perceived world but also how the " I, me, self" are just mental constructs. They just get attached to everything to give continuation and reality to the story.I could clearly detach the consciousness/impersonal observer from the ego/personality. Therfore I saw the illusion of ego.
I have to apologise I'm not sure if I'm expressing " myself " well.
Vel: I'll explain in a moment
Vel: Decision :the brain decides automatically based on previous conditioning
Canfora: That is a story about what the brain does. How do you know decisions are done by the brain? Isn't the brain just a bunch of neurons and so on?
Canfora: Not saying that that what you wrote is or isn't true but asking if that is your personal experience - can you experience inside the body a brain that is responsible for the decisions that happen?
Vel: Expl. If I'm driving a car and at some point I have to make a decision weather to take left or right the brain will decide based on previous experiences and simultaneously thoughts will come to give reality to the illusion of free will
Canfora: Other than a theory how do you know that the brain is responsible for any decision? Can you experience the brain making decisions?
If I ask you to lift your right arm, what can you SEE that decides to move the right arm (or not move the right arm). Try this little exercise a few times, watch what happens when a apparent decision is taken and describe what you can SEE, please.
Vel: Actually I can't say for sure that the brain makes the decisions
Vel: Ups maybe I'm missing something here. .let me think for a moment
Canfora: Ok but the idea is to see what is happening instead of what you think it's happening. Can you see a you or a brain controlling anything that is happening right now - the movements that the body makes, the thinking, the sensations, the way reactions happen?
Canfora: Or believing that the brain can decide is like believing that there is an I living life - an assumption that, when looking to reality - to what is happening here and now -doesn't match what can be seen, experienced?
Canfora: Take your time with this one. I'm tired and need to rest, we can keep talking about this tomorrow.
Vel: I see my hand moving up and down.but honestly I have no idea where the decision is coming from. Other than that brain
Vel: Ok thanks good night
Vel: In my direct looking the only thing I can say for sure is that I only witness the hand moving up and down. No thought required to move to hand. Just happens. But where the decision is coming from I have no idea
Vel: When I'm walking the same thing is happening.I can observe all kinds of things but my legs just walk on their own
Vel: The bottom line is , no matter what I try to describe I'll always have to speculate about how things work. The only thing always present is the witnessing of the present moment.Other than that I can't say anything without inserting assumption or belief.
Vel: I'm also stuck with the assumption that the subconscious mind is doing everything on automatic
Vel: When I observe what's going on. I can only state using verbs the moment I insert a noun it's a already an assumption.
Vel: Her is what I came up after some observation:
Desisions are like thoughts they just come and immediately or simultaneously the mind attaches a story to give solidity to the experience.
Vel: Same thing with intention:
If I take the mind - thought out of the experience then intentions are automatically unfolding.
It feels like I'm constantly downloading data. And it doesn't seem like I have any choice . But if I remove the the attachment to "I, me" then the universe is doing it's thing just unfolding or flowing like a river.
Vel: Control and responsibility only exist as a deeply seeded programmed thought but that's only if you take the self as real. Otherwise what control or responsibility. None really . The moment the "I" is removed from the equation problem solved.
Vel: Also you asked:what makes things happen?
I have no idea. Unless I start giving you philosophical answers from books I've read
Vel: Without going deep philosophically. It looks like a computer program once the code is there everything just happens automatically. Or like a dream. Or the universe is doing it's thing.I don't know really
Canfora: I really like your answers to Q5 Vel, thank you for looking! I have asked some of the other guides to read this conversation and see if they have more questions to ask you. That can take a little while.
Vel: It's like the ocean it does wave but every wave doesn't know how it happens. It just happens with perfect intelligence. If every wave had it's own will and intelligence then it would be chaotic ocean
Vel: Ok .Thanks for your time. I really appreciate it
Canfora: Thank you also, it is a pleasure.
This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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