Waking up permanently?

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stikik
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Waking up permanently?

Postby stikik » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:51 pm

Hello!
I am 38 years old, from Norway.
Many years ago, I had a sort of mystical experience of "merging with the world" .. I thought I would never be able to recreate this state, and put all spiritual work on hold for many years.
But recently I have started working again, and have had this experience again twice, although in a milder form.

What I would really like, is for this state to become permanent and stable .. Is this possible?

I am unsure if I might already have achieved the type of waking up that is talked about here .. Each "push" towards this state seems to take a lot of work for me, and I somehow slip right out of it again ..

Nevertheless, I am curious about the process that is offered here, and so can someone please guide me through it? :)

Sincerely, Stian.

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Cam-RT
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby Cam-RT » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:05 am

Hello, Stian

This Feeling your speaking of not only can stay with you but also deepens over time. I believe the "merging with the World" you speak of is flow...and can be very comforting. ;^)

I would like to ask though, that you continue to put your "spiritual" practices on hold for a little while longer (until you complete this Process) then you can explore again later...You will get more out of it, once you awaken.

In the end, this process is "for you" and I need your complete honesty when I ask you questions, and your commitment to stay focused will get the outcome you speak of...

So what feelings pop up when I Tell you there's no such entity As a "self" in Reality at all?
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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stikik
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby stikik » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:16 am

Hello, Stian
Hi! Thanks for answering! :)
This Feeling your speaking of not only can stay with you but also deepens over time. I believe the "merging with the World" you speak of is flow...and can be very comforting. ;^)
It might have been flow .. although it felt more like disappearing .. after three nights of this "disappearing", I found all fear of life was gone, and I felt like I could finally start living real life .. However, after about a week in this blissful state, life began to seem serious again, and the old mindset of fear and worry about my conduct and appearance came back ..
I would like to ask though, that you continue to put your "spiritual" practices on hold for a little while longer (until you complete this Process) then you can explore again later...You will get more out of it, once you awaken.
Okidoki - I will focus on this for now.
In the end, this process is "for you" and I need your complete honesty when I ask you questions, and your commitment to stay focused will get the outcome you speak of...
I will be as honest as can be! :)
So what feelings pop up when I Tell you there's no such entity As a "self" in Reality at all?
Well .. fear I guess .. fear of losing my "self" .. fear of losing control ..

I feel excitement also .. anticipation of freedom ..

There might not be such a thing as a "self" in Reality, but there sure is one in my imagination, and I feel this sense of self is keeping me safe, and making me able to impress others and make them take notice of me .. I feel that this "self" makes me able to function in society, and without it, I just wouldn't fit in, and I would not be able to control events - to support the "good" side, and fight ignorance and prejudice so to speak ..

(Intellectually and also from experience, I know this is not true, but this is the feelings nevertheless) ..

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Cam-RT
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby Cam-RT » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 am

Alright just needed to see if there was any uncontrollable fear we're dealing with, but it sounds like you'll be Okay...

Ego seems to be in the mix and that's Okay as long as we see it for what it is, It's a survival mechanism and is hard coded into our DNA. (per sea) Just to be clear Ego can create distractions that hinder the process...."Ego is Obstruction---->Surrender is Flow..."

As a being you have nothing to lose; and everything (and more) to gain, it was never there anyway. Freedom is just a thought away ;^)

Though we will be looking 'closer' at these thoughts that spur these feelings, because "fear" is a Mechanism or a like security system that keeps something from being found out. When these feelings (The more uncomfortable the thoughts better.) arise we need to feel where in the body it's being felt and bring it closer, respect it, even bow to it and at the same time we need to focus straight into it and look at what's behind it and see it for what it "really" is.

Try this exercise a few times (don't rush it) describe to me the best you can what it is you see...
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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stikik
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby stikik » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:26 am

Thanks!

This morning I thought about the fact that there is no "self" in reality.
I felt a knot in my stomach. I focused on this, enlarge it, fell it in my whole body, and tried to see it as a survival mechanism. After a while, some sobbing occurred, and the knot sort of faded a bit.
I felt a slight dizziness in the head, but this passed quickly.
I then got a feeling of a huge, heavy being coming into me and merging with my body. I remember this feeling from when I was young. My body felt really massive and heavy.

Not sure if this is all just distractions, but it sort of feels like something is really happening ..

Will do more tonight.

Thanks again :)

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Cam-RT
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby Cam-RT » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:58 pm

Alright, sounds like we've found some good training ground with your last response. When you identify with these thoughts the body reacts, (that is where the "self" resides) hidden behind these thoughts.

Here's the process:

Thoughts trigger feelings, feelings gets labeled, new thoughts pop up, feelings get stronger... reeling into a viscous feedback loop... this always happens when the "self" is at the center.

So now, (when these feelings arise) We need to challenge these thoughts with thoughts. In real life thoughts don't actually exist (only in the mind is where they dwell) unless you act upon them, then they become reality.

So when we revisit these thoughts, focus straight into the thought, whats left?

Can you identify with whats left? practice this, and let me know what you find.....
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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stikik
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby stikik » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:59 am

This process of focusing into and through the thoughts remind me very much of what I did spontaneously many years ago when this consciousness-shift happened .. At that time, I would focus intensely on any movement happening in the mind, and dismissing it as "not-truth" the moment I became aware of it, always focusing and looking beyond. Is this the right technique?

Anyway, trying this out a bit again this morning .. I focus on the non-existence of self .. I get the same reaction from the body: Stomach twitches, body fells heavy, massive, and compact, like gravity increased. Also at some points, the body felt extremely long, like I was many miles in height. After a few minutes, these sensations faded.

I try to focus behind the thought, and it its easy to see that the thoughts (doubts, fears, various arguments for not looking at the self as illusory) are really functions intended to keep up the illusion of self. It is like the mind notices certain things - certain thoughts that happen - and claims ownership, or attaches itself to them, saying: "This is me - this thought or notion describes who I am" .. "I like this or I like that, and that is because I am this or that sort of person" ..

It seems like this process is going on all the time, and taking up an enormous amount of energy and focus, hehe :)

It feels kind of scary, like I feel I am committing psychological suicide or something .. Will I loose my character? Will I become as boring as the average spiritual teacher? Am I actually dying inside? Will I give up this or that habit? Will I alienate my friends? These are examples of doubts and fears that pop up. However, I don't mind - they are just thoughts, and not the truth. I try to go for the more uncomfortable stuff like you said ..

However, I was not able to detect anything really at the root of this .. I am supposed to identify with "what's left"? I wonder if I'm doing this right, or if I'm just fooling myself .. ? At one point I had a sense of these thought-patterns forming a kind of shell, like an empty egg, but I dismissed this as yet another tempting image of the self ..

I will try more and try to find "what's left" later .. I find it's easier to do this in the morning, but I will try my best tonight after work as well, and see what I can find out :)

So .. am I doing it right? Any pointers will be appreciated.

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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby Cam-RT » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:58 pm

Stian, your doing Excellent.... But it sounds like you have alot of "empty eggs" to go through. ;^)

Okay, first off the "self" or "I" is very cunning...and basically hiding (ducking and dodging) through out all these thoughts that spur these feelings........And your right there's "nothing" at the core of all these thoughts.

So why is it so hard to pin this Down?...Because "it" has alot on "it's" side. Basically, as we grow up we identify with life experiences, (ownership and the like); and use it every day as a "construct" of our language!

So we're gonna make this a game...Throughout the day when you feel these "un-easy" thoughts hit take a quick step back (like a second look) peer into to it and "see" it for what it is.....Nothing... Then move on. (it takes repetition). Then when you get free time go "inside" and start "Cleaning house" pick up these "eggs" look at them crush'em and move on, turn over every "rock" and look whats under it challege everything! We need to eliminate places for the " I " to hide.

As time go's by and these feelings subside, but still use the body as a guide to feel when you get close.
Patience and commitment is key here....This is a war, and you need to catch the General!! You may stare it right in the "face" and move on and not realize it... it's Okay you'll come full circle eventually and get'em later.

It feels kind of scary, like I feel I am committing psychological suicide or something .. Will I loose my character? Will I become as boring as the average spiritual teacher? Am I actually dying inside? Will I give up this or that habit? Will I alienate my friends?
You have "nothing" to lose, and everything to gain....freedom to live, freedom to love, freedom to experience (uninhibited)....Enlightenment (to me) is to "lighten" the imaginary load one carries day in and day out....It's such a relief when it's reached. :^)

One last thing before I go...Take breaks when you think you have made some "ground" with this work... go outside walk around and "feel" it's affects (if any) have taken hold...<-----This worked for me.

Let me know how it go's and what "bumps" you hit along the way....
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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stikik
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby stikik » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:53 am

Yes .. it's been a while, and I have been trying to keep up this technique, but I must say ..
This really became incredibly boring incredibly fast! .. It's like I sit down and think to myself: "Ok, so about this 'self' again .. I know it's illusory .. let's see .. what things do I associate with my 'self' " and in the next moment I just blank out and nothing happens .. I feel lazy, depressed and bored .. Thoughts are sluggish and hard to concentrate on and to see clearly .. Time passes, and before I know it, I have to go to work, without really having gotten anywhere ..

Well - thankfully, today is sunday, and I was finally able to calm down and focus enough so that I could examine some of the mental processes .. I did not get the heavy-body-feeling from before, but at least I managed to examine my heavy emotional investment in a political-type discussion I had with a person at work that really got me down .. As I examined this sentiment, I started feeling lighter, it sort of felt like climbing out of a heap of clay I had been living inside .. I could breathe easier, and got a little giggly :) .. I continued to focus on how the mind "grabs" certain thoughts and wants to go with them ..

These political discussions have a way of grabbing me .. I remember from the first time I experienced this "flow" many years ago .. What got me "down" again after a week in this state, was a political discussion with a person promoting fascist views (he argued for the state executing people with downs-syndrome) .. How could I let that go by without getting engaged?? And so I got into an argument, and my descent back into "self" was at hand .. I find it curious that something similar seems to be happening now: The discussion with the person at work was about crime and punishment in society .. It almost feels like my attempt at freedom is being directly challenged by society! ..

One theme that keeps coming up, is fear of this freedom I feel is just around the corner .. If I loose all fear, won't I get myself into trouble? Will I bite off more that I can handle in life? Become manic and get into situations that I don't know how to handle? Tell people things I can't really deliver on?.. etc .. I keep seeing situations at work where I know I am faking - How will I relate to this person or this situation without a 'self'? When I meet this person, will I just kiss her, because that's the way I feel? How will people react to me if I am 'real' instead of 'myself'? ..

Well .. my main obstacle seems to be the laziness and lack of concentration at the moment .. How long is this going to take??

Thanks again for all your time, Cam-RT, I really appreciate it! :)

Stian

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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby Cam-RT » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:09 pm

Hello Stian!

So it seems like weekends are best for you that's cool, but you need to practice the 'Negative' feeling association with these thoughts your having.(In "real time".) Even if it's just 'noticing' then later revisiting these thoughts and 'seeing' them for "what" they 'are' later... (All those 'negative' thoughts)
These political discussions have a way of grabbing me .. I remember from the first time I experienced this "flow" many years ago .. What got me "down" again after a week in this state, was a political discussion with a person promoting fascist views (he argued for the state executing people with downs-syndrome) .. How could I let that go by without getting engaged?? And so I got into an argument, and my descent back into "self" was at hand .. I find it curious that something similar seems to be happening now: The discussion with the person at work was about crime and punishment in society .. It almost feels like my attempt at freedom is being directly challenged by society! ..

One theme that keeps coming up, is fear of this freedom I feel is just around the corner .. If I loose all fear, won't I get myself into trouble? Will I bite off more that I can handle in life? Become manic and get into situations that I don't know how to handle? Tell people things I can't really deliver on?.. etc .. I keep seeing situations at work where I know I am faking - How will I relate to this person or this situation without a 'self'? When I meet this person, will I just kiss her, because that's the way I feel? How will people react to me if I am 'real' instead of 'myself'? ..

Well .. my main obstacle seems to be the laziness and lack of concentration at the moment .. How long is this going to take??

Getting into arguments is the "classic" connection made to ones thoughts or beliefs; politics and religion sucks...
But it Just is...

Look at all these fears you listed here...these are the "self'" and "Ego" working perfectly to keep you distracted, bored, and afraid that "Stian" is going to fall apart if he becomes "Enlightened".

Becoming Enlightened doesn't mean that you sit around with a stupid grin on your face and chanting and acting all weird. ;^) Ha Ha.

How long will it take?......Here's an old joke.

"How long" is a China mans name....

Sorry for that, anyway for some it takes day's, some months,....The point is there are two kinds of people:

The first kind... Are the ones lucky enough to reach this in their lifetime....

The Second...Are the ones that "see it" at the point of there death.

It's like working hard all your life, and dieing at your Retirement party!!... Stay focused It will come... ;^)
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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Cam-RT
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby Cam-RT » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:20 am

So if there's no you, who's getting all worked up over all this politics, and job stress?
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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stikik
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby stikik » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:24 am

So .. investigation of the thought-processes continue ..

So .. what is happening .. It is amazing how much can be going on in the mind all the time .. small, but strong pulls in all kinds of directions .. mostly, it's for/against type of stuff - "can't do this", "must do that" .. "this is good, this is not good". Well, I keep reminding myself that all of this is just make-believe, a point-of-view, and not "real".

It seems kind of obvious that these thoughts are very, very limited reflections on reality .. They present very polarized notions of either/or .. they seem very "dramatic" / "theatrical" .. and they are very point-of-view-ish .. All of which tells me that they can't possibly be "real" or taken seriously ..

I have sort of stopped going deeper into the thoughts to see what lies "behind" them .. rather, I just dismiss the thoughts as not important in the context (since I am looking for Truth, not a point of view or an opinion about something) .. Most of the stuff that pops up seems really easy to see through anyway .. But maybe I am going too fast? .. Sometimes, there's a "thought" or "notion" that sort of grabs me, and I will go deeper into it and try and see the motivation behind it, but mostly, I just keep brushing thoughts out of the way, and focusing on just being consciously present in reality ..

After a while, the activity in the mind slows down a great deal, and what little activity there is seem "far away" .. There is a very, free, open, relaxed feeling. There is a kind of .. openness to anything that happens .. The breath goes much easier, slower and deeper. There is a feeling of endless expansion, like plunging into the unknown again and again in waves of ecstasy ..

A couple of times now, there have been an urge to surrender completely to this "formless" state .. I start to let go completely, and there is a feeling of "disappearing" for a brief moment, but then comes a reaction of strong fear - a rush up the spine, and a panic-like-reaction .. heart beats fast, sweating ... and I pull back ..
Is this normal? What can I do to make this "leap of faith"? .. (Am I supposed to? .. If this is anything like the previous time I experienced this, I know it's not really dangerous, just a shifting of focus, but still I get the fear-reaction) .. There could be some thought I have not investigated that is holding me back maybe? :) ...

Another thing that is always present, is the "feeling" of the body itself .. now matter how quiet and free the mind gets, there is always a feeling of body-presence reminding me of my location ..

I have noticed a type of "dull" feeling in everyday life lately .. Like an opaque film covers my field of vision .. I sort of go around and do things, but without much interest .. I wonder if this is caused by focusing on how my view of reality is "not real" .. I guess the trick now would be to transfer the state I can get into in my quiet room into everyday life .. :) .. It seems I can approach the "wake state" (until the fear of disappearing hits), when everything is nice and quiet, but when daily life starts, all that is forgotten, and I either react automatically, like in a frenzy, or loose interest altogether ..

Stian

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Cam-RT
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby Cam-RT » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:26 am

Well Stian: Whether you think so or not, you're making progress....

As far as thoughts go; Yes, they're pretty much like projections from the mind, and how you perceive them and react toward them, "that" becomes your reality.<----Hope I didn't lose ya on that one. ;^)
A couple of times now, there have been an urge to surrender completely to this "formless" state .. I start to let go completely, and there is a feeling of "disappearing" for a brief moment, but then comes a reaction of strong fear - a rush up the spine, and a panic-like-reaction .. heart beats fast, sweating ... and I pull back ..
Is this normal? What can I do to make this "leap of faith"? .. (Am I supposed to? .. If this is anything like the previous time I experienced this, I know it's not really dangerous, just a shifting of focus, but still I get the fear-reaction) .. There could be some thought I have not investigated that is holding me back maybe? :) ...
Everything else you stated in your response is putting you right "at" The Gate. The quote above is holding you back...That is the "Self" not wanting you to succeed. (All the fear you experience, for this process, yes it is normal.)

When this moment reoccurs, Yes, It's an act of faith.(Along with an ever increasing number of others); I am living proof that making that leap will reveal the truth once and for all.

You have "Nothing" to lose and "Everything" to gain by taking that leap....I'm here for you so please let me know what happens...You are ready... go for it!!!
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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stikik
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby stikik » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:00 pm

Sorry for taking so long to reply ..
Nothing new has happened really .. still examining different thoughts and fears that pop up as I try to see the self-less existence behind the thoughts ..

I guess I lost momentum on this a bit .. have only sporadically sat down to examine my thoughts on the self lately .. maybe like once a week .. I thought I would wait until I had some result to report before writing back ..

I feel frustrated .. nothing is happening .. :( .. Guess I will just keep going .. what else is there to do? ..

Maybe I need to find new angels to approach this? Each time I sit down, I always start with the same affirmation - "The self is illusion" and go from there (noticing thoughts and feelings that come as a result of this, and fixing attention on them) .. Maybe I need to approach from a new direction?

When I started this, I felt there was some progress, but not anymore .. I feel like it does not matter if I examine the thoughts .. The thoughts are still there, and active, even though I know they are not true ..
It is like going to a movie, and even though I know it is all fake, my mind still reacts as if the things happening in the movie are real. I think it is impossible to escape from this :(

Not sure what to do now .. Just keep on going or ..?

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Cam-RT
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Re: Waking up permanently?

Postby Cam-RT » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:39 pm

Hey Stian! glad to see you are still willing to finish this and see past the illusion...

So the Self is trying to trick you into paying attention "TO" the thoughts, what we are looking at is what behind or for that matter, whats between these thoughts... If this is the angle we're looking for so be it...

These thoughts are in fact distractions, and are there to occupy you, not to defeat you...They have no mass, just like you said like watching a movie, but don't exist in this realm...

So what's driving these thoughts??...Ignore the thoughts... What's left???
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com


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