Would like a guide please

[forgetmenot]

Hi,

Quite simply I would like to experience the truth and become free of being the perennial seeker of truth! I have an understanding that there is no 'me' and I would very much appreciate the actual experience of truth. Thanking you, whoever would like to guide me.

Kay

[Petrus]

Hi Kay,

I will be happy to guide you.
The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Acually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site ->http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

I am Dutch but in the Western Indonesian Timezone (GMT+8), what about you?

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?


Regards Petrus

[forgetmenot]

Hi Petra,

Many thanks for being my guide. I live in Australia - Timezone (GMT+10)

I have read the groundrules and disclaimer and am still working on learning the quote function! Here goes nothing, as they say!

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

My expectations is peace of mind, to let go of the idea that I have control and am controlling my life...so from that perspective freedom. Freedom from the thoughts and beliefs that I am the doer, the thinker and that I am doing life wrong - freedom from fear and confusion. I would like clarity of what is really happening a part from my idea that something should be different to what is actually happening and that I have the power to change what is happening. There is always a thought that there is something wrong with me and that I am doing things wrong and I would like to see past these thoughts and just enjoy 'living'. I would really like to see what is meant by the idea that thoughts and doings are just arising and there is no doer - to see how that relates in day to day living, so to speak...to go beyond this perpetual confusion of what is real and what isn't. Am I living a life or is life living me?

I have moments of clarity and I have had times when there has been absolute peace and life has just flowed but this is short lived where the confusion, the yoyoing backward and forth comes back two-fold..and I am so over the yoyoing and the recriminations, feelings and sensations that go with it all. I really don't know what to expect in all honesty...just something to be different...just something to change.....peace; or just acceptance if there is nothing to change or to be different. The desire for the seeking, wanting, grasping and contractions to come to an end and to just flow with life.

Kay

[Petrus]

Hi Kay,

...freedom from fear and confusion.

Fear and confusion are feelings just happening.
It is not said these will disappear. But to see there is no I in them will give relief. When feelings just can be they also tend to disappear after awhile.

There is always a thought that there is something wrong with me

This me, where exactly is it located? What does it consist of?

I would really like to see what is meant by the idea that thoughts and doings are just arising

I am not sure what another option would be for thoughts and doings?

Warm regards, Petrus

[forgetmenot]

Hi Petra,

This me, where exactly is it located? What does it consist of?

It seems that this me resides in a body. I can feel the cool breeze on my skin, I can hear the wind through the trees and I can feel all the pressure points where my body is sitting on the chair and where my arms rest on the desk as I type. I can feel my heart beating and feel my chest rise and fall as I breathe and I can feel and hear my stomach rumbling. I notice how thoughts come and go and how there is this voice that is narrating all this to me! I notice how some thoughts are triggered by certain things/stories/events/pictures etc and that there seems to be a sequence of thoughts that run one after another that make up the stories, like the one I am telling now! So this me is made up of a sequence of thoughts, feelings, sensations that equal the story called Kay and her life!

When I close my eyes and I look deeper and ask ‘where is this me located’ there seems to be a presence – an energy that pulses/vibrates that my mind says is my body/me. I also notice that there is a vast space (emptiness) but within that emptiness there is still sensations, sounds and even thoughts (although those thoughts are quieter) and breathing still continues! And because this vast space seems to be seen behind closed eyes and around the head area...there seems to be a ‘me’. And those things I hear, touch, see and taste seem to separate from me.

I am not sure what another option would be for thoughts and doings?

It seems that I think them. It seems that memories, events, emotions, people etc can trigger thoughts and stories so it seems that I create the thoughts as opposed to thoughts just arising without any provocation or management! It seems that I have a thought about closing a window so that the rain doesn’t come inside and I am then doing just that...closing the window...so there seems to be a me thinking this based on what is happening in my environment and a me doing the doing of closing the windows...so it seems that I am the thinker and doer.

Kay

[Petrus]

Hi Kay.

It seems that this me resides in a body.

It seems, but is it true?

I can feel the cool breeze on my skin, I can hear the wind through the trees and I can feel all the pressure points where my body is sitting on the chair and where my arms rest on the desk as I type. I can feel my heart beating and feel my chest rise and fall as I breathe and I can feel and hear my stomach rumbling.

Is it an I that is feeling all that? Or is it just a feeling?
Is an I needed to feel?

I notice how thoughts come and go and how there is this voice that is narrating all this to me!

When you hear the voice is there at the same time an I listening?

So this me is made up of a sequence of thoughts, feelings, sensations that equal the story called Kay and her life!

Ok. But isnt this compilation/sequence of thoughts a thought also? A concept? Not something to be experienced in reality, but only a thought?

I also notice that there is a vast space (emptiness) but within that emptiness there is still sensations, sounds and even thoughts (although those thoughts are quieter) and breathing still continues!

If you say: "I also notice" is it possible in the meantime to be also that what is noticed
(e.g.: vast space (emptiness) but within that emptiness there is still sensations, sounds and even thoughts (although those thoughts are quieter) and breathing still continues!) ?

And those things I hear, touch, see and taste seem to separate from me.

How? Is there a line somewhere? Where you end and the experience (hearing, seeing..) begins?
Look closely! That is the key issue here...

It seems that I think them. It seems that memories, events, emotions, people etc can trigger thoughts and stories so it seems that I create the thoughts as opposed to thoughts just arising without any provocation or management! It seems that I have a thought about closing a window so that the rain doesn’t come inside and I am then doing just that...closing the window...so there seems to be a me thinking this based on what is happening in my environment and a me doing the doing of closing the windows...so it seems that I am the thinker and doer.

Lots of seeming here...

It seems that I have a thought about closing a window so that the rain doesn’t come inside and I am then doing just that..

Thought: close the window, so the rain doesnt come inside
Action: window is closed.
There is seeing the thought, there is seeing the action performed.
No I needed. Not even a body needed, maybe a hand, or something that closes the window. Is it a hand?

Warm regards, Petrus

[forgetmenot]

It seems, but is it true?

No, there is a pointing to the idea that I reside in the body and this pointing is done through past/present conditioning via thoughts, feelings and sensations but this conditioning is strong because there is still something that senses/labels all of this which I equate to an "I".

Is it an I that is feeling all that? Or is it just a feeling?

I would like to be able to say that feeling is just happening however the cool breeze is being felt on the skin of the body...something must be feeling this. And if the body is real..then the body is feeling and this is being felt by something. If I drop all thoughts and labels of body, wind, breeze...then feeling is just happening and it is happening to nothing.

Is an I needed to feel?

There is a strong resistance to not seeing that there is no "I". I can feel the anger because I want to hold onto this "I" and yet there is also frustration because I want to see past this "I". No matter how hard I look and even if I see glimpses of truth...the desire for an "I" is stronger than the desire to see. I don't know how to look or what to ask to enable seeing past the label of "I".

I will leave this here for now and revisit it in the morning a long with the other questions you have asked.

Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hi Petra,

Let's try this again! When I read this through it sounds contradictory and I can see the confusion...but this is what I submit as this is the honest answers I get at this moment in time!

It seems that this me resides in a body.
It seems, but is it true?

No, there is a pointing to the idea that I reside in the body and this pointing is done through past/present conditioning via thoughts, feelings and sensations but this conditioning is strong because there is still something that senses/labels all of this, which I equate to an "I".

Is it an I that is feeling all that? Or is it just a feeling?

I realised that feelings just happens. There is no one switching on a switch to feel...so whatever is being felt is just being felt. It’s not like I tell myself that I am now going to feel a cool breeze on my skin, it is just felt.

Is an I needed to feel?

I can’t get passed this one. Something must be feeling or does the body feel on its own? If I am feeling the sensation of fear, that doesn’t mean that another standing beside me is feeling this fear at the same time that I am...so there is a difference. To me this says there are “I”’s feeling and thinking – that I have an “I” and they have an “I”.

Doesn’t matter how many times I look, there is someone going to look to see if there is an “I”. Who or what is that “I”? When I become frustrated, the whole rest of the world doesn’t become frustrated with me...so there are individual “I”’s.

There is an idea that what is being felt and what is feeling is happening at the same time and if I drop the story of a body and an “I” then the feeling and the feeler are one and the same.

When you hear the voice is there at the same time an I listening?

Yes, there is an I listening. Who else listens to the thoughts in my head? When I have a thought, my thought is not the same thought as the person next to me. They are having their own thoughts.

Ok. But isnt this compilation/sequence of thoughts a thought also? A concept? Not something to be experienced in reality, but only a thought?

If I drop the story (compilation of thoughts) then what is happening is nothing. Bodies are just moving wherever they are walking/moving to. Trees are just doing what trees do, the sun rises and sets etc etc etc. If there was no story then there would be nothing...just a silent movie of movement.

So then when I think I am making a cup of coffee....there really is no “I”...the body is just seen to go through the movements of making a cup of coffee and then something claims to be the maker? But does not thought animate the body?

If you say: "I also notice" is it possible in the meantime to be also that what is noticed
(e.g.: vast space (emptiness) but within that emptiness there is still sensations, sounds and even thoughts (although those thoughts are quieter) and breathing still continues!) ?

Yes, I see that noticing happens at the same time of what is being noticed. That is that I notice the vast space and sound/sensation simultaneously.

How? Is there a line somewhere? Where you end and the experience (hearing, seeing..) begins?
Look closely! That is the key issue here...

What I see, touch, hear, smell and taste changes from one thing to another. Aah but they are still part of whatever the experience is in this moment! They might change but that doesn’t make them separate – if they were separate would I be aware of them – would I be experiencing them! No! So no, they cannot be separate to what is being experienced. Seeing a tree in the distance does not make it separate from me as it is part of what is being experienced currently!

Thought: close the window, so the rain doesnt come inside
Action: window is closed.
There is seeing the thought, there is seeing the action performed.
No I needed. Not even a body needed, maybe a hand, or something that closes the window. Is it a hand?

Okay...so I am having a cup of coffee and after taking a sip from the cup I saw that I didn’t see the thought that says “pick up the cup and have a sip of coffee”. I just noticed that I had had a sip of coffee. And in that moment I can’t even be sure if I actually picked up the cup of coffee or if just happened. Kay thinks she did because there is now a taste of coffee in her mouth...but is the sequence of events (if there was such a sequence because I wasn’t aware of the sequence) what created the taste or is the taste just happening? When I look into the coffee cup, the cup isn’t as full as it was - so logic says I must have had a sip!

There are fingers typing this on a keyboard that are attached to hands which are attached to arms which are attached to the body. But does that make the fingers and the keyboard create the words seen on the screen or are they just happening but I think that one creates the other? If that is the case then all of this makes the “I” superfluous.

Kay

[Petrus]

Hi Kay,

but this is what I submit as this is the honest answers I get at this moment in time!

First of all I like to say, I like your approach!
And real honesty certainly helps in this matter. And you are doing fine.

Sofar the confirmation of the "you", now lets go back to making you see there is no "you" at all, haha...

If I drop all thoughts and labels of body, wind, breeze...then feeling is just happening and it is happening to nothing

That is the whole point: I is dependent of thinking about it.
No thinking, no I (and no problem).

There is a strong resistance to not seeing that there is no "I".

Respect that feeling. Dont resist it. Where do you feel this? What is the story behind it?

because there is still something that senses/labels all of this

When you meet her/it ask her/its name for me, ok?

I realised that feelings just happens. There is no one switching on a switch to feel...so whatever is being felt is just being felt. It’s not like I tell myself that I am now going to feel a cool breeze on my skin, it is just felt.

Exactly! Same for thinking, same for hearing, etc...

There is an idea that what is being felt and what is feeling is happening at the same time and if I drop the story of a body and an “I” then the feeling and the feeler are one and the same.

I would say: drop the story and we are done!

But does not thought animate the body?

Oops, another thought.... We need scientists (thinkers) to prove that thought.
And when its proven (or not) we are still in the same shit...

That is that I notice the vast space and sound/sensation simultaneously.

It is noticed. No space for a someone at the same time... Can you check that?

But does that make the fingers and the keyboard create the words seen on the screen or are they just happening but I think that one creates the other? If that is the case then all of this makes the “I” superfluous.

I is superfluous anyhow...

Yes, I see that noticing happens at the same time of what is being noticed. That is that I notice the vast space and sound/sensation simultaneously.

So now there are 3 already: The one noticing, that what is noticed and the noticing itself.
Keep looking. There is only place for one. The switching between the 3 goes very fast...

Yes, there is an I listening. Who else listens to the thoughts in my head? When I have a thought, my thought is not the same thought as the person next to me. They are having their own thoughts.

In fact you dont know anything about the person next to you. Maybe it is just an actor in your play.
And, yes, maybe they are having the same thought, thats called telepathy.
The fact that a thought happens somewhere doesnt prove there has to be an I, an empty place is enough.

Please keep going, you are very close...

Warmest regards, Petrus

[forgetmenot]

There is a strong resistance to not seeing that there is no "I".

Respect that feeling. Dont resist it. Where do you feel this? What is the story behind it?

It is like a shutter comes down over the mind and nothing is allowed in and there is a contraction in the body and fear, anger and a determination/stubbornness/rebelliousness comes to play. Indignation arises at the thought of something or someone else managing and controlling my life as I will be a puppet to it/life/circumstances and my freedom, safety and identity is jeopardised. The irony in this is that “I” certainly haven’t been doing such a good job of keeping myself happy, safe and free no matter what I have or haven’t done, and I have never known who I am as a person – I have been seeking personhood all my life as well!

The fear of being at the mercy and whim of an unknown with no recourse and the absolute rage that I am not my own ‘person’ and that I ‘belong’ to something/someone else! The idea that someone else is pulling my strings and making me dance to their tunes brings my back up and I dig my heels in. I see a stubborn little girl who refuses to do what she is told – it’s her temper tantrum against what is happening! I want to fight this and dominate this...whatever ‘this’ is before it gets the better of me!

None of it makes any sense really...since I don’t know who/what I am and that is what I am wanting to see but this is the story that goes with the resistance and it has been this same story every time I have looked! I must be attached to it because all of the above is automatic and it doesn’t matter how many times I look at it, investigate it and see that it is a story...it keeps me hooked and resistant. It is my story of the belief that I have freewill and that I am the doer and controller of my life – it is my ‘fuck you’ to Life/God/Universe/Self...whatever It is! As I write this I can feel the rage and the desire to lash out at whatever ‘this’ is and tell it to give me what I want – self autonomy as a person - without me having to lose what I think I am, which is ironical since what I really want is the truth and nothing but the truth! Go figure!

because there is still something that senses/labels all of this

When you meet her/it ask her/its name for me, ok?

I write the following with both embarrassment and delight as I have realised an expectation! I am waiting to become something else....I see that now. I was listening to a bird singing and thinking well that bird is still outside and in the distance so how can it and I be One. Yes, I can hear it but that doesn’t make it a part of me, it’s not something that I am feeling within me...like a sense/vibration/energy. I see I was expecting to become the sound and know myself as the sound! If I became the sound then I would undoubtedly know that I am not a person in a body and that I was the sound but not as the sound! Some sort of spiritual concept I have and/or I have watched too many fantasy movies!!! The reasoning was that if I can sense this presence/awareness and that is what I truly am - that I am everything but not as everything then I will be the sound and know myself as the sound just like I feel pain and other sensations in the body....I expected to feel the sound and know it as me! LOL I don’t know what this means or what is or isn’t but I delighted to see that there was a concept that I thought needed to happen as proof that I understood the truth and had reached the place of truth! (Yep, still feeling embarrassed!!)

But does not thought animate the body?

Oops, another thought.... We need scientists (thinkers) to prove that thought.
And when its proven (or not) we are still in the same shit...

Aah because there is no cause and effect...everything is just happening...there is nothing making anything do anything...it only seems that way because of the story I give it. It’s like the arm moves and there was no prior knowledge of a thought to move the arm...it just moved. Other times it looks like a thought made the arm move. The arm moved...end of story. When I say that I had a thought that made the arm move...that is the identification to an “I” and to being the doer.

That is that I notice the vast space and sound/sensation simultaneously.

It is noticed. No space for a someone at the same time... Can you check that?

Well it looks as if I take an action to notice the vast space. I close my eyes and in closing my eyes I focus and ‘see’ this space and if I focus on it some more than it expands. When I open my eyes the sense of vastness isn’t there because it becomes filled with what is seen ie what is in the room. So there is a doing to this...it just doesn’t happen by itself. There is a conscious effort to it all.

Yes, I see that noticing happens at the same time of what is being noticed. That is that I notice the vast space and sound/sensation simultaneously.

So now there are 3 already: The one noticing, that what is noticed and the noticing itself.
Keep looking. There is only place for one. The switching between the 3 goes very fast...

I can’t see past the subject – object split. I notice a sensation in the body. So there is a noticing (something that comes into awareness because it wasn’t there previously), one noticing (I notice) and the noticed (the body and the sensation). I don’t become the sensation...I notice it.

It’s the same when I close my eyes and I see darkness behind the eyes that looks/feels spacious and when I focus some more this space behind the eyes expands. When I open my eyes the feeling of expansion vanishes as what is seen is full of what is seen ie the room. I (the noticer) notice the expansion when eyes are closed. There is a doing to all of this.

In fact you dont know anything about the person next to you. Maybe it is just an actor in your play.
And, yes, maybe they are having the same thought, thats called telepathy.
The fact that a thought happens somewhere doesnt prove there has to be an I, an empty place is enough.

How do I know? There are two of us discussing the same topic and each of us has our own opinion and they differ...that tells me that their thoughts are different to mine.

[Petrus]

Hi Kay,

Indignation arises at the thought of something or someone else managing and controlling my life as I will be a puppet to it

Haha, I can understand your indignation.
First, it is not the case you will disappear (or change into a puppet). You (as a separate something) never existed. So nothing will change. Only the way you look at it.
Secondly: Nobody or nothing is controlling. Life just is.

The fear of being at the mercy and whim of an unknown with no recourse and the absolute rage that I am not my own ‘person’ and that I ‘belong’ to something/someone else!

Feel the fear! Feel very detail of it. Invite it. Fear only persists when you resist.

it keeps me hooked and resistant. It is my story of the belief that I have freewill and that I am the doer and controller of my life – it is my ‘fuck you’ to Life/God/Universe/Self...whatever It is!

That one I like so much, that I would suggest just to keep it that way, haha...
That is, if you can find a one somewhere to keep you hooked and resistant...

I am waiting to become something else....I see that now.

Great story about the bird and the expectation!
Truth now already is indeed. It will not be coming one day.

When I open my eyes the sense of vastness isn’t there because it becomes filled with what is seen ie what is in the room

The vastness is gone. The room is there.

I can’t see past the subject – object split.

Listen to music. If it is really beautiful there is no-one listening, there is only music. You are gone!
Then you say: How beautiful! At that moment the music is gone and there is only this thought "How beautiful!"
An I is projected into the past: I heard the beautiful music. But in fact that just is another thought.

There are two of us discussing the same topic and each of us has our own opinion and they differ...that tells me that their thoughts are different to mine.

I cant find one, you can find two!

Regards, Petrus

[forgetmenot]

Hi Petrus,

Well then I don't know where to go from here. No amount of looking, story telling, seeing, noticing, not noticing is making any difference. To me there is something that is watching and is aware....whether or not it has a name is irrelevant. If there is nothing here then where does all this come from. I can drop the "I" and start sentences with noticing bird flying...that is just semantics...there is someone/thing noticing the bird flying. There is a body moving, there is eating happening, there is thinking going on, there is driving, working, talking! There is sleeping and waking up in the morning..and no, unless I have a dream I am not aware of being asleep...only that I wake up in the morning. If being asleep emulates the truth then all this happens on its own and there is no order or intelligence to it...and none of that makes any sense at all. I'm aware of this computer screen and I am aware of things around me...so if there is no 'me'..then who is aware. I have looked and looked and there is still a 'me'.

I get that in direct experience...right in this moment all that is seen is seen and nothing else is seen and the same goes for hearing and feeling and what thoughts arise are in this moment. If I think of the swimming done yesterday, that is a memory because swimming is not happening right at this moment. So all that is happening is what is being experienced in this moment...and still there is an experiencer. So I don't know where to look now, how to dig deeper, what to look at etc. I can sit with the fear...I have been doing so for some time now...sitting with sensations in the body and looking at the thoughts that create the fear. Looking at what the resistance/anger/frustration protects and yet it seems I don't see at all...I still see a someone who is doing and thinking...a someone who is feeling and thinking. So where do I look to find the no-one because I can find the someone but not the no one.

Regards
Kay

[forgetmenot]

And another thought occurred to me....who is the one looking? If there is no one here...then who is looking to see there is no "I"? Who is it that wants to 'see' the truth? If a thought can't think then what is thinking or where are these thoughts coming from? If a thought can't see...then what is seeing? There has to be a something.

Kay

[Petrus]

Hi Kay,

If a thought can't see...then what is seeing? There has to be a something..

Ofcourse there is being or aliveness. But there is no someone.
The someone introduced in speech indeed is semantics, it does not refer to something real.
The thought of you is not you.

...and still there is an experiencer.

Where? How old is he/she? what is his/its weight? What does it look like?

And another thought occurred to me....who is the one looking? If there is no one here...then who is looking to see there is no "I"? Who is it that wants to 'see' the truth?

You are right: there is no one that wants to see the truth: it is a thought only.
If you realise that, the searching stops immediately!

Warm regards, Petrus

[forgetmenot]

Hi Petrus,

Ofcourse there is being or aliveness. But there is no someone.
The someone introduced in speech indeed is semantics, it does not refer to something real.
The thought of you is not you.

Yes, I understand that intellectually....but understanding it intellectually is not actually experiencing it.

Where? How old is he/she? what is his/its weight? What does it look like?

Well if direct experience is not experience and no one is experiencing this experience...what is the point of this? Who or what then is experiencing the sensations, sounds, sights, tastes and smells? Whether the label of a sensation is dropped...for example a feeling of being itchy, that sensation is still being felt. If there wasn't any experiencing then I wouldn't be here...I'd be dead or completely numb. Or are you saying that a sensation that is seemingly felt is to give the context/idea of a body and therefore a self?

You are right: there is no one that wants to see the truth: it is a thought only.
If you realise that, the searching stops immediately!

Yes, if I could just realise that it is a thought then searching would stop immediately.....unfortunately I am not realising that and that is why I am here because intellectually understanding something is not the experience of actually 'seeing' it! None would be seeking the 'seeing' of truth if they could just realise it!

Kay