Guide needed

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dottybb
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Guide needed

Postby dottybb » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:19 pm

Looking for guide to lead in examining thoughts to help untangle mis-identity.

Live in New England, USA.

Am 71, female, had 40+ years in deepening understandings , have enjoyed the No ME experiences, but this state is not prevailing in thoughts as yet.

Get intellectual too much.
Vision loss one eye, other eye weak--have dealt with chronic migraine 50 years.

Happily married, 6 marvelous,grandkids,

Am ready to probe into these patterns, and would like to be where acceptance is present.

Being with Direct Experience seems to instantly free up this being.

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Andrei
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Re: Guide needed

Postby Andrei » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:47 pm

Hi Dotty

Maybe I can assist you in your search.
Get intellectual too much.
Not necesarily a bad thing. Its the mind that does the work but its the mind that has to die (metaphorically speaking). In the end the mind thinking will stop and seeing will start. But we will get there.
have enjoyed the No ME experiences, but this state is not prevailing in thoughts as yet.
The beyond the gate is not really a state. Some people call it enlightenment but that can mean anything. We here call it liberation for lack of a better term but its more like a realization of some sort. Its like when you`re a kid and wait for Santa to bring you toys and you wake up in the morning and discover its actually your parents who did it all along lol.
Its a shift in being and thoughts have nothing to do with it.

That being said let me know if youd like me to be your guide and if so we can get started.

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dottybb
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Re: Guide needed

Postby dottybb » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:32 pm

Hi Andrei,
Yes I would like to explore with you. I have read the disclaimers and agree to the conditions.
Right now while sitting I feel sensations of the chair, hear the sound of motor running, see the light from the table lamp, hear a soft tap as fingers poke computer. There is no me. Thoughts come up and when looking for thought there is no thought talk.

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Andrei
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Re: Guide needed

Postby Andrei » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:13 pm

What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?

Right now while sitting I feel sensations of the chair, hear the sound of motor running, see the light from the table lamp, hear a soft tap as fingers poke computer. There is no me.
Is there a YOU, a center, that does the hearing or hearing just happens?
Is there a YOU that does the tapping or is it simply happening?
Is there a YOU that controls the body and all its functions or is it just happening independently?

There is no me. Thoughts come up and when looking for thought there is no thought talk.
Thoughts come up <-- Thats a good observation.
Do you have any control over the thoughts coming up? Is there a YOU thinking thoughts?
Can you think and choose a thought?


If you feel like we`re racing ahead or that I ask too many questions at a time let me know. Same if we get to a point where you feel unclear about something and you`d like us to spend more time on that topic.

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dottybb
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Re: Guide needed

Postby dottybb » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:36 pm

What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?

My expectations: I am leery of expectations as they come from past and project into the future. I don't know what will result from this exploration. Feeling? maybe lightness in the body---I'm not sure about this.
Since there is no "me" to change, I'm not sure either. I have no control over what happens---life is happening thru me. It's all a great mystery --this Life. When conditionings show up--there is desire to be healthy, balanced, light hearted, generous, authentic. I know these are all words, concepts from the mind.

There is not a YOU, a center. Hearing happens, seeing happens, taste happens, breathing happens in this apparent body. There is no "I" that is control. It's all happening on its' own.

Thoughts are like popcorn they come when they come. There is no "ME" to be found anywhere.
It might be possible to steer thoughts by suggestion for example if you asked me to talk about apples. Then thoughts about apples might arise and I might say words like red, round, crisp etc. Thoughts are a form of senses---they come and go, I have no control, I may like or dislike the thoughts that show up.

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Andrei
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Re: Guide needed

Postby Andrei » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:25 pm

When you quote something written before please use the quote button. You can press it and then copy paste the text in between the tags. Or you can simply write the code: [ quote ] text [ / quote ] without spaces. It will make things easier to read.

I don't know what will result from this exploration. Feeling? maybe lightness in the body
That might as well happen. When you`re not tense about a certain outcome then relaxation happens. The body can go through changes.
However the changes dont have to be "positive". I ve read on our facebook groups that some experienced a cleansing of some sort because of the multiple years of conditioning, the body felt tense, sensations of dizzyness, etc. So you never know.
Anyway my point for asking you that was to see if you cling to an outcome, like eternal bliss, or heaven or guessing the lottery numbers or whatever, and you dont seem to. As long as there are no such expectations or attachments we can move on.

When conditionings show up--there is desire to be healthy, balanced, light hearted, generous, authentic. I know these are all words, concepts from the mind.
Conditionings wont disappear just like thoughts wont disappear, just that they wont matter anymore (or at least a lot less than they used to). Its just things happening.

There is not a YOU, a center. Hearing happens, seeing happens, taste happens, breathing happens in this apparent body. There is no "I" that is control. It's all happening on its' own.
Ok. So there is no I in control of the body and its senses.
What about the actual "body"? Is the "body" a center of some sort, a producer of senzations and thoughts? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Next topics:
~
When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?
~
When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it?
Is there an “I” (or anything that resembles a self) in direct experience?

~

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dottybb
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Re: Guide needed

Postby dottybb » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:45 pm

Hi Andrei,
[/quote What about the actual "body"? Is the "body" a center of some sort, a producer of senzations and thoughts? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

This body is a locator ---like a stage that performers use---it's like a platform---lots happens there. No, it is not a center. Sensations happen and if I close my eyes and just focus on sensations I cannot say where exactly this body is located. For example, this body is getting lower back pain. It hurts to move around. Not comfortable and fear comes up ---thought forms---will it get worse, will I have to lay still, take drugs etc. (those are the conditioned responses.) I see through the thoughts and move to relaxing and accepting, not resisting. AND I do take steps to care for the back.
When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?
There is no fear if you say there is no "YOU". In fact it is helpful to hear this!
When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it?
Is there an “I” (or anything that resembles a self) in direct experience?
~/quote]

When using the term "I" or "me" it's a way to speak, a way to communicate with another person. I don't find any "self" anywhere. Using pronouns is helpful too, like him, her, them.

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Andrei
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Re: Guide needed

Postby Andrei » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:59 am

There is no fear if you say there is no "YOU". In fact it is helpful to hear this!
Ok. What if I push a bit further and I say there is nothing whatsoever nowhere and never was. If your life and memories are just thoughts. If there is nothing "personal" and that nothing will survive ones death. That soul, awareness, afterlife, spirit, rapture, whatever, are just concepts created from fear of eternal oblivion and have no basis whatsoever.
Any tension arises in this case? Any fight back feelings?

Next topics:
~
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
Is there a watcher separate from the seen?

~
Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.
~

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dottybb
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Re: Guide needed

Postby dottybb » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:51 am

Ok. What if I push a bit further and I say there is nothing whatsoever nowhere and never was. If your life and memories are just thoughts. If there is nothing "personal" and that nothing will survive ones death. That soul, awareness, afterlife, spirit, rapture, whatever, are just concepts created from fear of eternal oblivion and have no basis whatsoever.
Any tension arises in this case? Any fight back feelings?/quote]

Well, OK Andrei, I guess you can say this. I'm at an age where I'm no longer able to remember clearly what, when, who, why etc happened. I don't know what happens after death so it's hard to answer. I don't desire or hold dear any "hopes for an afterlife", no reunions, no reincarnation, nothing. I accept this life now, that's enough. There is interest that family and friends will have some good feelings when memories of me may come, but I am not attached. I have been to enough funerals, and seen all kinds of "personal" belongings at yard sales and thrift stores to know that personal things are easily lost. "Fear of Eternal Oblivions" ---sound like a mental concept---I have no idea what this phrase means. Here, there is no fight back or tension.
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
Is there a watcher separate from the seen?
In direct experience there is a sense of experience without an "I" or "watcher.
Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens
This is a good question. There is no definable moment when choosing happens. Many past conditionings may come into play when it appears "I" am choosing. I might even say that the coffee is choosing me!
A "choice-point" is not accurate. There are infinite interplays that are constantly shifting and "I" am a part of this.

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Andrei
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Re: Guide needed

Postby Andrei » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:18 am

I might even say that the coffee is choosing me!
Hehe havent heard that before. That actually sounds like a pretty good marketing idea!

For me it is pretty clear that you can see.
I have one last question in order to determine clarity and after that we will move on to the final questions.

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Also I want you to think and let me know if there`s anything we missed, any problem whatsoever that you think we didnt talk about, or didnt talk about enough.

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dottybb
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Re: Guide needed

Postby dottybb » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:56 pm

[quote]Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
/quote]

I do see through the illusion of a separate self within. In the relative, physical world of things I do experience separation. For example I bang my head on a shelf---there is sensation of pain here---there is no ME per se, but there is a felt sense here.

[quote]Also I want you to think and let me know if there`s anything we missed, any problem whatsoever that you think we didnt talk about, or didnt talk about enough.
/quote]

I don't know what's coming next and I wonder if you will address how past conditionings, and deep thought patterns are seen through in day to day living? Is there choice when there is no one to choose?

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Andrei
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Re: Guide needed

Postby Andrei » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:25 pm

I don't know what's coming next and I wonder if you will address how past conditionings, and deep thought patterns are seen through in day to day living?
You know that "what has been seen cannot be unseen" meme viral on the internet? Thats pretty much how it goes. Conditioning and thoughts patterns wont go away just because you had a break through. But now you have something to work with. Whenever unpleasant thoughts and feelings appear in your awareness ask yourself, are they real? Is that thought real or it is just a mind construct? Is that belief real or is it simply something I took for granted without looking for evidence? By simply observing them they will start to lose their strength. They will never disappear ofc but it wont matter any more. It will be just mental noise. But that in time.

From my experience to sum up this whole liberation process: "everything in life is happening without me managing it in any way" and thats the idea I applied to any "unpleasant" issue I encountered. Very quickly that became ingrained and now I dont even have to think it any more, and I only became liberated like a few months ago myself. But that is just my experience and every journey is different.

There are post-gate resources as well. We have a part of this forum available for post-gate conversations and help. That will be made available for you as well.
We also have a few facebook groups which I fully recommend where gate crashers can chat and deepen their understanding, or simply to have fun.
So in a way this is not the end of the journey but just the beginning.
-----
Now Im going to ask you the final questions and please take your time. Answer as fully as you deem is necessary. I will also pass them to the other guides just in case theres anything I missed or if they have any feedback.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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dottybb
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Re: Guide needed

Postby dottybb » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:09 pm

Thanks Andrei--

You say:
You know that "what has been seen cannot be unseen" meme viral on the internet? Thats pretty much how it goes. Conditioning and thoughts patterns wont go away just because you had a break through. But now you have something to work with. Whenever unpleasant thoughts and feelings appear in your awareness ask yourself, are they real? Is that thought real or it is just a mind construct? Is that belief real or is it simply something I took for granted without looking for evidence? By simply observing them they will start to lose their strength. They will never disappear ofc but it wont matter any more. It will be just mental noise. But that in time.
/quote

Today I was able to spot the distortion of thinking during a tense conversation, and "un-plugged" when I sensed the tightness and mentally asked "Who is this happening to?" and also notice the conditioned thinking that led to my remarks. I felt immediate freedom from "My story". Also today I was engaged in conversation and felt an old pattern start to play out in the mind, and again could see through the conditioned momentum that was playing out. Again, a freedom to move on, without identification, and story.

I understand that I, like a tree, have been influenced and affected by all that happens in and on this piece of the planet. No choice here. Therefore the conditionings are going to come when they come. No control here. I like the way you call it "mental noise"


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
1. I find no separate SELF- ME-I here. I used to believe in this idea and know this was just a "story" like Santa Claus or Tinker Bell.

2. The illusion of a separate self began in infancy when words were used and taught creating concepts of separation, i.e. a separate self, or "me", "I",. The well intentioned process has its' uses AND is needed for communications--even in these explorations here. Now as an adult there are patterns, triggers AKA conditionings that kick in automatically while I am living Life (or Life is living me!) Usually I know through physical sensations when a mis-identification is happening. Then thoughts start rolling out like a ticker tape, and I get lost in the Maya, or you call it "Noise".

3. Now when I see this, or hear this, or feel this "Noise" I also have BIG question to ask:

A. Is there a ME this is happening to?
B. Are these just an endless stream of thoughts?
C. Is there choice here? As you say---"everything in life is happening without a ME to manage it in any way."

Now there is freedom and space, and the drama passes quickly. This feels clear and clean, and I feel more authentic in an open and caring way. In these last days I have noticed how I see through the thoughts, and how I can "place" them, and also am able to feel less attached to this reflection that shows up in the mirror.
Yes, there is a face out there, just as there is a mirror, and window, floor etc.

4. I think reading the app sections, and mulling over them was very effective. The different sections are clear and concise, and for whatever reasons they keep me AWAKE to always looking for the Direct Experience. This is so simple and clean. No entanglements in thinking or asking why.

5. Decision: This is a thought. There is no decider. You might say Life is decision unfolding, there is no controller.
Intention: Intention is an idea/thought that I can make Life do what I want. Intentions are thoughts that appear.
Free Will: Another idea or thought. Free? there is just this, right here right now. Will? there is no will as there is no separate self to have a free will.

Choice and Control---both are thought/ideas that are based on the idea of a separate self.

Examples: Today the urge to walk arose (there was no decider, or chooser) I ventured outside in the bitter cold. The thought "go to the Library" arose. The road conditions were snow over ice, and I crossed before arriving at the Library for easier walking. While walking I saw a flag that indicated my friend might be in her store. I was already on the side of the street where her shop sat. The arctic wind hurt my face and I needed to get warm. I entered the shop and my friend was there. We visited for an hour during which time I saw the old patterns and defenses arise and also leave easily.

All of this happened, there was no "me" controlling the weather, the wind, the road conditions, my friend and her words, my words used, the thoughts that came and went.

Nothing makes Life happen, and I don't know how or why this is so. Responsible? To respond is something that is always happening is what Life is all about, and this "I" here is part of Life. Beyond this I don't know. To ask "What are you responsible for?" implies there is a You/ME that has some control, and this is not my experience.

Thank you ---

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Andrei
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Re: Guide needed

Postby Andrei » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:09 pm

Now when I see this, or hear this, or feel this "Noise" I also have BIG question to ask:
A. Is there a ME this is happening to?
Good question. Is it?
As you can see, going past the gate is not as earth shacking, divine awakening, god mind-ing, eternal bliss-ing, paradise entering, lottery winning lol, as some new age, non-duality , zeny gurus claim. No 40 virgins waiting for me either. I was rather disappointed I tell ya!
To paraprase that old zen saying, "Before the gate, chop wood, carry water. After the gate, chop wood, carry water."

But to tell you how it was in my case. Its not that my questions found answers. Its just that the need to find answers simply stopped.
B. Are these just an endless stream of thoughts?
Im afraid so. Even those who claim to have achieved "enlightenment" speak about the "monkey mind" doing its thing. Also i noticed that when you try to fight thoughts off its actually when they get noisier. The best is to just observe.
Thinking is just a function of the brain and it can only end if the brain is damaged somehow and that is not something anyone would want. Compare it to the computer processor and the bits of information it receves or sends out. Those fluxes only end when you shut down the system. Same with thoughts.
C. Is there choice here? As you say---"everything in life is happening without a ME to manage it in any way."
Another good question.
Is there a choice?
Is there somebody/something who choses anything?
How did the coffee chose you?
Where did that urge to go to the library came from?

4. I think reading the app sections, and mulling over them was very effective. The different sections are clear and concise, and for whatever reasons they keep me AWAKE to always looking for the Direct Experience.
The app is great I also found the Gateless Gatecrashers book very helpful.
http://liberationunleashed.com/wp-conte ... ashers.pdf

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dottybb
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Re: Guide needed

Postby dottybb » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:20 pm

Hi Andrei--

Is this the end of your Guidance? Am not sure if this is closure, or there is more info to share regarding site addresses for "Gatecrashers" and Facebook Group names?

Thanks!


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