Looking for a guide

[fallkar1]

Hi, I am new to the forum. I just read "Gateless Gatecrashers" and have been looking ever since. Something has freed up, shifted, and is lighter. There is this feeling of wanting confirmation, though. Would be grateful for any guidance.

Thanks,

Kari

[JimmyG]

Kari,

It's great to have you here. Welcome.

My name is Rolly, and I would like to guide you here.

Kari wrote: Would be grateful for any guidance.

There are a few formalities that I would like to go through first to make sure that we are in agreement prior to getting started.

If you have not yet, please read the disclaimer at the LU website: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Once you have read that, please confirm.

Next, here are a few guidelines that I would like you to read before we begin.

1. You agree to post at least once a day. And if you cannot for some reason, then please let me know. I commit to the same.
2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to. If you have questions, then that is fine. However, generally, I will not answer questions. Rather, I will guide an exploration of the assumptions that underlie the questions.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty. It is important that you really explore your own experience directly and answer completely honestly. There is no right answer. There is only a truthful exploration. That is what we want.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Approach this with openness and curiosity, simply to see what is as it is.

Please confirm that you have read and agree to these guidelines.

Once you have confirmed the above we may begin the exploration.

Warm Regards
Rolly

[fallkar1]

Hi Rolly,

Thank you for the warm welcome, I'm very happy to be here. I appreciate your willingness to guide me!

I have read the disclaimer, and I am ready to begin.

I am in Germany, so if we are in different time zones let me know so I can accomodate for this.

Greetings,

Kari

[JimmyG]

Hi Kari

I have read the disclaimer, and I am ready to begin.

Wonderful. Then let's get started.

I am in Germany, so if we are in different time zones let me know so I can accomodate for this.

Well, I’m in a neighboring country, Switerland, so we’re in the same zone.

I just read "Gateless Gatecrashers" and have been looking ever since.

What exactly are you looking for? Is there any expectation of what you’re hoping to find out? What do you expect out of this dialogue?

Something has freed up, shifted, and is lighter.

This is great. Can you describe more in detail what that ‘something’ is?

There is this feeling of wanting confirmation, though.

This is very good since our mind is very ingenious in telling and persuading ourselves all sort of things which of course we’re here to explore and look what’s really there.

Warm regards
Rolly

[fallkar1]

Hi Rolly,

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad we're in the same time zone.

After I read the book, I started looking for a "self". I wanted to look to see if it was true there is no "self" I honestly couldn't find one. Then, I was cooking and it hit me! OMG that's why I could never find "my true authentic self" It was like Santa Claus looking for the Easter Bunny. Neither one of them exist! How can they find each other? It was such a relief after years of digging for this "self"!

I don't have any expectations at what enlightenment looks like anymore. I want to know how close I am to crashing that Gate. I am ready to look now.

What has shifted is now I'm questioning EVERYTHING. There isn't this knawing anxious feeling in the pit of the stomach all the time anymore. Life is flowing and doesn't seem like an everyday battle. But there's this weird disconnectedness. There is calm in the body, but the mind isn't quiet yet.

You're so right! Our minds are tricksters that can convince us of things. I guess that's what I mean about confirmation-is this something I know on an intellectual level or is it real?

Thanks again for your time,

Kari

[JimmyG]

Hi Kari

It was like Santa Claus looking for the Easter Bunny. Neither one of them exist! How can they find each other? It was such a relief after years of digging for this "self"!

This is great. Finally it turns out that the search itself is illusionary. What is, is – this, whatever there is or is not, is already it. Who you are, what you do, what you have, this is it.
It’s that simple.

I don't have any expectations at what enlightenment looks like anymore. I want to know how close I am to crashing that Gate. I am ready to look now.

What if I told you, that there is no enlightenment, no gate, no crashing whatsoever - this is it? There’s no ‘you’! What comes up?

Life is flowing and doesn't seem like an everyday battle. But there's this weird disconnectedness.

Where do you see disconnectedness? Just look at this moment, is there actually a boundary between you and whatever you experience? We normally assume there are boundaries to ourselves. Right now you have some experience happening, you’re reading these words, there’re sensations in the body and there are sounds. Notice if you can actually find a boundary between you and the experience. Don’t look in your thoughts! Go by raw experiences such seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching.

There is calm in the body, but the mind isn't quite yet.

You say that there is calm in the body. What is your evidence that this is so?
You say that the mind isn’t quite. Can you find a ‘mind’? Where is it located? What is your evidence that this is so?
As always, answer from direct experience.

I guess that's what I mean about confirmation-is this something I know on an intellectual level or is it real?

Exactly so. We are here to look only in direct experience. There’s no room for speculation, assumptions or any concepts. You find out.

BTW You might consider to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

Rolly

[fallkar1]

Hi Rolly,

It’s that simple.

It is simple isn't it?

What if I told you, that there is no enlightenment, no gate, no crashing whatsoever - this is it? There’s no ‘you’! What comes up?

Disappointment, fear. The feeling there has to more to "it". But in the end, if all there is to this is not being constantly haunted by past regrets and anxiety about the future that's freedom in and of itself.

Where do you see disconnectedness? Just look at this moment, is there actually a boundary between you and whatever you experience?

By disconnectedness, there's this feeling of moving in slow motion. Sometimes this feeling of lack of control. I can't stay "out of my head" and just "be"! feeling frustration. I feel calm now inside, but my head is spinning. I keep trying to "figure it out". Then the tightness in the middle coming back now as I'm typing this.

.

You say that there is calm in the body. What is your evidence that this is so?

Generally tightness in the chest is gone, this nervousness is gone. Feeling not so "on edge". Not taking interactions with others so personally.

We are here to look only in direct experience

Great! Ready for raw emotion, no more concepts.

Kari

[JimmyG]

Hi Kari

I noticed you are handling the quote function perfectly.

Kari worte: Disappointment, fear. The feeling there has to more to "it". But in the end, if all there is to this is not being constantly haunted by past regrets and anxiety about the future that's freedom in and of itself.

What is your proof that ‘this is it’ causes disappointment and fear? Are disappointment and fear truly caused? Where does it come from? Is it your disappointment and fear? Is the disappointment and fear about you?

‘The feeling there has to be more to ‘it’? More of what? Can you explore this assumption further? Could it be that this assumption causes regrets and anxiety about an imagined ‘past and future’?
In direct experience do a ‘past and future’ exist at all? What is your evidence?

Kari worte: By disconnectedness, there's this feeling of moving in slow motion. Sometimes this feeling of lack of control. I can't stay "out of my head" and just "be"! feeling frustration. I feel calm now inside, but my head is spinning. I keep trying to "figure it out". Then the tightness in the middle coming back now as I'm typing this.

Do you ever feel that you are in control? And if so, what is your proof under those circumstances that you are, in fact, under control? Do you actually have any proof that you have controlled anything? If yes, give examples.

You say ‘I can’t stay “out of my head”. Is there an inside and outside of your head or body? Where are the boundaries? Can you draw a line between inside and outside?

Remember, it’s still the mind that can’t get hold of or grasp direct experience and its reactions are frustration and tightness. That’s just what happens. So just stay with direct experience.

JimmyG wrote:You say that there is calm in the body. What is your evidence that this is so?
Kari worte: Generally tightness in the chest is gone, this nervousness is gone. Feeling not so "on edge". Not taking interactions with others so personally.

See what interactions with ‘others’ look like in DE? Can you find boundaries between you and others?

Kari worte: Great! Ready for raw emotion, no more concepts.

Beautiful!

Rolly

[fallkar1]

Hi Rolly,

Sorry, I thought my post yesterday went through. Anyway, the word "perfect" brought tears to my eyes. That is just it. To "Kari" enlightenment=perfect life. Perfect life = no suffering. That's how Kari sees everything and everyone. If only..... . But life just is. Suffering, loving, happiness, sadness is all part of living, isn't it.

"Kari" always wants to get to the castle without swimming the moat. That is how "Kari" lives her life-carefully avoiding suffering by trying to be perfect which in turn causes more suffering.

This perfection thing is ingrained so deep. Need to keep "looking".

I'll check back tomorrow,

Kari

[JimmyG]

Hi Kari, yes we'll look at this 'perfection thing', but nor now I just wait for your replying.
Thanks for letting me know.
Rolly

[fallkar1]

Hi Rolly,

I'll do my best to answer your questions.

quote="JimmyG"]What is your proof that ‘this is it’ causes disappointment and fear? Are disappointment and fear truly caused? Where does it come from? Is it your disappointment and fear? Is the disappointment and fear about you?[/quote]

Disappointment and fear aren't caused- they're just feelings that come up as a reaction to thoughts about what "enlightenment" really is. Because "Kari" forms mental pictures of what x,y,z should look like - naturally thoughts of disappointment and fear of disappointment happen because reality doesn't care about my fantasy. Fearful that I'll fail on this journey.

[When you said "what if I told you there was to gate to crash?" My first thought was "What?" I felt disappointment.
I lied before. I expected that "Direct Pointing" was a short-cut to this wonderful "enlightenment" No meditation needed, just bam-boom- accept "no-self" exists and nirvana will occur. That I would be always in "now" .

quote="JimmyG"]In direct experience do a ‘past and future’ exist at all? What is your evidence? [/quote]

No past and future in direct experience. We can't experience again what happenned five seconds ago again except from memory. We can't experience what will happen five seconds from now either.

I would like to come back later and finish up if I could today.

Thanks,

Kari

[JimmyG]

Hi Kari, thanks for your post. I wait for your concluding answers then.
Rolly

[fallkar1]

Hi Rolly,

You say ‘I can’t stay “out of my head”. Is there an inside and outside of your head or body? Where
are the boundaries? Can you draw a line between inside and outside?

I know there is no really being "inside my head", I just meant being not really present in the moment and preoccupied with thought. Analyzing people, experiences, things and how I can "improve" them. No, I can't draw a line between outside and inside. Mostly obsessing how to improve me..

Do you ever feel that you are in control? And

No I "know" my controlling things, people, events are impossible. But I don't want that to be so. That's the conflict.

I just want to be able to "let it be"! Life would be much more enjoyable.

I hope that answers your questions. Thanks for your patience.

Kari

[JimmyG]

Hi Kari

Kari wrote:
Anyway, the word "perfect" brought tears to my eyes.
That is just it. To "Kari" enlightenment=perfect life. Perfect life = no suffering. That's how Kari sees everything and everyone. If only..... . But life just is. Suffering, loving, happiness, sadness is all part of living, isn't it.

Yes indeed, Kari, it’s that simple. This is it. Nothing including, nothing excluded – just everything being the indefinable, mysterious happening.

"Kari" always wants to get to the castle without swimming the moat. That is how "Kari" lives her life-carefully avoiding suffering by trying to be perfect which in turn causes more suffering. This perfection thing is ingrained so deep. Need to keep "looking".

Well, maybe you can also see the assumption here right away. Does ‘Kari’ live her life? Can you find ‘Karie’ in direct experience? Can you find any boundaries of ‘Karie’ and what are your evidence for that? Where do you find evidence that ‘Karie’ avoids suffering by trying to be perfect except in thought streams, concepts and assumptions?
Yes look for this ‘perfection thing’ – can you find such a thing in direct looking? Can you make it out? How does that look like? Or is it just another concept depending on what is just happening?

Disappointment and fear aren't caused- they're just feelings that come up as a reaction to thoughts about what "enlightenment" really is. Because "Kari" forms mental pictures of what x,y,z should look like - naturally thoughts of disappointment and fear of disappointment happen because reality doesn't care about my fantasy.

We all occasionally fall into the trap of ‘should be’ and ‘ought to’ which can only be concepts besides what really it, just this. Isn’t what ‘should be’ non-existent or have you ever seen something that ‘should be’ instead of what actually is?
Yes, agreed, fantasy of what ‘could or should be’ inevitably draw thoughts of disappointment and fear near.

Fearful that I'll fail on this journey.

Well, look at what you found earlier in our dialogue:

Kari wrote:
It was like Santa Claus looking for the Easter Bunny. Neither one of them exist! How can they find each other? It was such a relief after years of digging for this "self"!

So this self, ‘I’, is due to your statement, non-existent. So, who is there to be fearful or failing what? Is there a journey after all? Or is it rather thought that makes us believe of ‘I’, ‘fear’, ‘fail’ and ‘journey’? Look, if you can find that fear of failing in direct experience? Is there even a journey?

[When you said "what if I told you there was to gate to crash?"
My first thought was "What?" I felt disappointment.

How can you feel disappointment without having been deluded in the first place? Look for yourself, can there be a gate to crash direct sensory experience? Could it be that ‘gate to crash’ is just another pointer to an utterly undefinable, mysterious happening?

I lied before. I expected that "Direct Pointing" was a short-cut to this wonderful "enlightenment" No meditation needed, just bam-boom- accept "no-self" exists and nirvana will occur. That I would be always in "now" .

Yes sure, that’s devastating! But can you ever be not in the ‘now’? Does ever something occur or exist, good or bad, past and future, fantasy or truth – that is not in the ‘now’? Can you find evidence for such assumptions?
Bad news is, there might not be fireworks, once we have seen through. Good news is, there was never a time or occasion, when we have not gotten it, not been in the now, not been already complete, all this and just this.

No past and future in direct experience. We can't experience again what happenned five seconds ago again except from memory. We can't experience what will happen five seconds from now either.

That’s very good.

I know there is no really being "inside my head", I just meant being not really present in the moment and preoccupied with thought. Analyzing people, experiences, things and how I can "improve" them. No, I can't draw a line between outside and inside. Mostly obsessing how to improve me..

Again, is it ever possible, not be present in the moment and even preoccupied with thought when all this is the undefinable, mysterious, luminous happening of the now? Who or what is doing the analyzing of people, experiences, things and how to improve them when there is no self, no ‘I’ as you found out earlier? Who or what is doing the obsessing of how to improve if there is no ‘you’? Who are what does believe such thoughts streams?

JimmyG wrote:Do you ever feel that you are in control?
No I "know" my controlling things, people, events are impossible. But I don't want that to be so. That's the conflict.

You know, there’s no control. You know, there’s no self, no ‘I’. Then it seems that ‘your controlling’ things does not exist in direct experience except as concepts and stories, right?

I just want to be able to "let it be"! Life would be much more enjoyable.

Yes letting all go is wise since there’s no self, no I to cling to. See if you can even find ‘life’ in direct experience? What do you find? What is your evidence for life? Of course, no stories, no concepts – okay?

I hope that answers your questions. Thanks for your patience.

Thank you very much for your honest looking and answering. That’s all that counts.

I really look forward to your next posting.
Rolly

[fallkar1]

Hi Rolly,

Well, maybe you can also see the assumption here right away. Does ‘Kari’ live her life? Can you find ‘Karie’ in direct experience? Can you find any boundaries of ‘Karie’ and what are your evidence for that? Where do you find evidence that ‘Karie’ avoids suffering by trying to be perfect except in thought streams, concepts and assumptions?
Yes look for this ‘perfection thing’ – can you find such a thing in direct looking? Can you make it out? How does that look like? Or is it just another concept depending on what is just happening?

No, I can't find Kari in direct experience, It's all make-believe based on concepts, assumptions or analyzations-Just thoughts.

There is no "perfection thing" in direct looking. Just a concept used to explain why I got so emotional from the word "perfect". It's just only a word-there is no definable "perfect". There just "is". Everything else is fantasy, perceptions, memories all stored by the brain and brought into our present thought by reaction to stimulus.
For example, say we are booking a vacation to Hawaii. The brain has a memory of something about Hawaii seen in a movie, or a magazine then our brain forms an expectation of what Hawaii looks like based on a memory, not direct experience. Of course then, the brain begins fantasizing about what Hawaii is going to be like. The only real part of that was the memory based on something unreal- a picture.

We all occasionally fall into the trap of ‘should be’ and ‘ought to’ which can only be concepts besides what really it, just this. Isn’t what ‘should be’ non-existent or have you ever seen something that ‘should be’ instead of what actually is?
Yes, agreed, fantasy of what ‘could or should be’ inevitably draw thoughts of disappointment and fear near.

It really is just a trap! I have never experienced "should be". It is non-existent. Believing the fantasy can cause fear and disappointment. The fantasy itself is just that-a fantastic thought, make-believe. Fear is so silly because its based on "maybe suffering" not actual suffering. Actually funny.

How can you feel disappointment without having been deluded in the first place? Look for yourself, can there be a gate to crash direct sensory experience? Could it be that ‘gate to crash’ is just another pointer to an utterly undefinable, mysterious happening?

Definitely! There is no "Gate to crash" in a true sense. The brain formed a picture that gate crashing was a door to a "higher level of awareness" but isn't that just a concept itself? A "higher self" can't exist because there is no self.

Yes sure, that’s devastating! But can you ever be not in the ‘now’? Does ever something occur or exist, good or bad, past and future, fantasy or truth – that is not in the ‘now’? Can you find evidence for such assumptions?

No, I can't ever be not in "now". I just meant the difference in feeling I have when I just "am" When I just let an experience be what it is in the moment without attaching "should be's". That is what I mean. Completely- mentally as well as physically present. I am, not I am "this" or "that".

You know, there’s no control. You know, there’s no self, no ‘I’. Then it seems that ‘your controlling’ things does not exist in direct experience except as concepts and stories, right?
Of course.

See if you can even find ‘life’ in direct experience? What do you find? What is your evidence for life? Of course, no stories, no concepts – okay?

Life in direct experience is seeing, touching, tasting, feeling emotions, thinking thoughts. The brain just makes me believe all of it is a "me" But it is just sensory reaction to outside stimulus. The brain just makes a story out of it.

That's all I've come up with. Thank you so much!

Greetings,

Kari