Guides lets do this

[olscrach]

I actually think I have a handle on this and may have already crossed, or maybe I am deluding myself. Lets confirm one way or the other

[JimmyG]

Hello Olscrach

This is Rolly (male) from the Switzerland. Very nice to meet you.

I actually think I have a handle on this and may have already crossed, or maybe I am deluding myself. Lets confirm one way or the other

Yes, I am here to guide you.

A few quick guidelines: look to post daily/regularly or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

Also, our disclaimer.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen the above - then we shall begin.

Best wishes
Rolly

[olscrach]

Confirmed sir

[JimmyG]

Confirmed sir

Very good. Then we shall begin.

Where do you reside?

What do you expect out of this dialoge?

Rolly


BTW You might consider to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

[olscrach]

I reside in the south eastern USA

I expect a lot of abstract concepts that will make sense to no one. But I hope for clarity.

I am familiar with the concept of no self. It took me a while to get my head around. Three nights ago I started deconstructing some of my actions. I came to conclusion that there was do decider, no doer no chooser. Things, life, was just happening, and I really didn't have any control over it. I felt liberated when I came to this conclusion. And I thought I had gotten it. Passed through the gate as you say here. Then I shared the experience with a few people who have more experience with this than I do. They seemed to think I wasn't there yet. So that kind of put me back to square 1 again.

[JimmyG]

I reside in the south eastern USA

Then the time difference is 6 or 7 hours that you are ahead of me.

I expect a lot of abstract concepts

Yes, you could call no self an abstract concept as for pointing. But in direct experience we look into our raw experience such as seeing, hearing, smelling touching and tasting rather than our thought stream about it which comes wrapped up as concepts.

But I hope for clarity.

And yes, the more you directly look the more clarity!

I am familiar with the concept of no self. It took me a while to get my head around.

The mind is quite cunning in telling us that we have understood a concept. But since we don’t look for concepts the mind cannot grasp it nor understand it all. All the mind does is conceptualizing. On the other hand looking and clarity just happen without fireworks, daily life is still daily live. Shit still happens. Pleasure still happens.

Things, life, was just happening, and I really didn't have any control over it.

You use the past tense as if happening and no control was happening in some past time. Let’s look right now. You sense the environment.
Can you sense the aliveness?
And the end of the thought, what is there when I stop thinking – can you sense the aliveness, the being-ness there?
Don’t think or theorize, just simply look. What comes up?

They seemed to think I wasn't there yet. So that kind of put me back to square 1 again.

The search for a goal to be reached is quite common. And that then the mind jumps in and comments, things like I’m not there yet, this can’t be it. But what if I tell you, this is already it. Just this, right now, right here? What comes up?

Best wishes
Rolly

[olscrach]

You sense the environment.

yes

And the end of the thought, what is there when I stop thinking

just awareness, then more thoughts come

Can you sense the aliveness?
And the end of the thought, what is there when I stop thinking – can you sense the aliveness, the being-ness there?

I suppose I sense the aliveness and beingness

The search for a goal to be reached is quite common. And that then the mind jumps in and comments, things like I’m not there yet, this can’t be it. But what if I tell you, this is already it. Just this, right now, right here? What comes up?

Relief to some degree. I was happy when I felt I had "gotten it" and disappointed when others indicated I did not. I don't want to sell myself short though. If there is more to this concept I want to continue until it is fully grasped.

[JimmyG]

If there is more to this concept I want to continue until it is fully grasped.

Please remember what is said in my previous post. It’s the mind trying to grasp or understand which is simply an impossible job. The mind can’t grasp or understand direct experience unless it creates stories in time - thought/mind-streams. How would mind understand something which is timeless, no past or future - not found in thoughts?

What do the words “I”, “me” or “mine” point to, here and now?
When you say “I”, what does that refer to in direct experience? Can you describe in detail – does this "I" have a shape, a size or a quality?

In direct experience (which is seeing, hearing, smelling, touching and tasting), can you find an "I" that experiences experience?
Is there a seer separate from the seen?
Is there a hearer separate from the heard?

Watch your breath - don't look in your thoughts? Go by your direct experience which is just now, just this happening right now and see what comes up.

[olscrach]

Please remember what is said in my previous post. It’s the mind trying to grasp or understand which is simply an impossible job. The mind can’t grasp or understand direct experience unless it creates stories in time - thought/mind-streams. How would mind understand something which is timeless, no past or future - not found in thoughts?

The mind doesn't understand anything in present or future tense because that information hasn't been processed yet.

What do the words “I”, “me” or “mine” point to, here and now?

my physical form

When you say “I”, what does that refer to in direct experience? Can you describe in detail – does this "I" have a shape, a size or a quality?

When I say "I" it refers to my physical form and the stuff associated with said form, that is just how our language works. I can't offer a physical description for "I" but I can for the physical form associated with the word "I" when used in a specific context.

In direct experience (which is seeing, hearing, smelling, touching and tasting), can you find an "I" that experiences experience?

No

[JimmyG]

What about

Is there a seer separate from the seen?
Is there a hearer separate from the heard?

[olscrach]

What about

Is there a seer separate from the seen?
Is there a hearer separate from the heard?

The seen and heard are interpretations of info received by sensory organs. There can't be a separation between the interpretation and the interpreter.

[JimmyG]

Olscrach worte: The mind doesn't understand anything in present or future tense because that information hasn't been processed yet.

Your statement implies a something which is doing the processing. Who or what does the processing? How would that look like? Where are the things which yet have to be processed - provided there is such a thing? Or is all just a mysterious, indefinable happening? Look!

JimmyG wrote:What do the words “I”, “me” or “mine” point to, here and now?
Olscrach worte: my physical form

Let’s look some more into your first-hand experience:

Look at an object in front of you, say the computer screen. Let’s call it the ‘observed’. And ‘you’, Olscrach, are the observer.
Can you draw a line between this observed, the observing and the observer?
What about the space between the screen and you? Is that observed or observer?
What about the hands? Are they observing or observed? What about the end of your nose? Is that observing or observed?
Where is this observer? Can it be experienced at all?
When our thinking and language say ‘Olscrach' is looking at the screen’, what is happening, in reality?

JimmyG wrote:In direct experience (which is seeing, hearing, smelling, touching and tasting), can you find an "I" that experiences experience?
Olscrach worte: No

Yes. It’s that simple - there’s no ‘I’ whatsoever! With no ‘I’, does that mean that seeing, hearing etc. just happen without doer, controller, experiencer?

Olscrach worte: The seen and heard are interpretations of info received by sensory organs. There can't be a separation between the interpretation and the interpreter.

We are trained to structure sentences with subject, object and verb but that just can’t be verified by direct experience. Try to find a boundary between an object, subject and a relative doing, can you? Let’s check that out:

Look at a plant or tree. Can you draw a line between you, the looking and the tree. Is there any separation if there is no ‘I’ as you found out in the forgoing reply?

Take your time and keep in mind how fast the mind comments anything, conceptualizes everything. Don’t go for that. See what you truly find by just looking directly – no stories whatsoever?

Best wishes
Rolly

[JimmyG]

Olscrach's privat message: I was offshore all day today, had no real time to "look" after your last post. I will be sure to post tomorrow.

Thanks for notifying me, that's no problem. You can send me notes like this in this thread since we agreed to have daily contact if possible.

Rolly

[olscrach]

I think I understand where you are going with this...I am still looking. I think I am close to being able to articulate an answer back to you. I will look some more this evening and try to post again before I sleep. Might not be until tomorrow.

[olscrach]

is there another layer to this besides realizing there is no self?