Asking for guidance

[Lalita]

My name is Lalita. I'm on the spiritual journey for 15 years and did a lot of meditation, vipassana and other things. I couldn't find an I, a personal self. There is just one thing. That which is aware of that seeing, I get caught up making that my "I" since that is unaffected by change. I ask for guidance to let the "I" fall away even from this

[JonathanR]

Hello Lalita,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jon and I may be willing to guide you.

I get caught up making that my "I" since that is unaffected by change. I ask for guidance to let the "I" fall away even from this.

That's interesting. Can you say a little more about this?

Warm regards,

Jon.

[Lalita]

Thank you Jon for your quick reply. When I look there is something that is aware of everything, of the sunshine, this heartbeat, this conversation. Like an unchanging observer. And that awareness is there with everything that this person does
Sometimes the person gets coughs up in daily conflicts but still there is just awareness of that. But I'm as observer are aware, so I think I just moved my sense of person to that unchanging awareness

[JonathanR]

Hello Lalita,

Thanks for that clarification.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we continue, a few formalities.

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please read and agree to the following:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A word about expectations. You have already spoken a little about why you have come here but please let me know if you have expectations or hopes of particular insights or changes and how you would know if these have been achieved?

But I'm as observer are aware, so I think I just moved my sense of person to that unchanging awareness

This is something we will look at. Since you mention 'sense of person' we will start with this question...

Please tell me what it is that you think 'you' are?



Jon.

[Lalita]

Hello Jon,

yes I've understand and read everything
I will give my 100% for this process and honesty

A word about expectations. You have already spoken a little about why you have come here but please let me know if you have expectations or hopes of particular insights or changes and how you would know if these have been achieved?

yes I must admit there is some expectation that during the process the sense of an "I" will fall away and there is just awareness and not I am the awareness

Please tell me what it is that you think 'you' are?

I think I am the one looking through these eyes. I am the one seeing thoughts and standing there and observing what this person is doing. It still happens sometimes that I get hooked in the person and for a moment I think those are my emotions and thoughts. But most of the time I see myself observing the person and sometimes are in awe how the person reacts. But there is still a definite feeling of an "I", just in the costume of a body.
I had a lot of visions before seeing myself in many different lives with different bodies. Yes I know I am not a body, but I can see that is also just another belief that I am this entity choosing bodies. I would like to see that there is no entity at all.

[JonathanR]

Hello Lalita

yes I must admit there is some expectation that during the process the sense of an "I" will fall away and there is just awareness and not I am the awareness.

It is possinle to notice that 'I' is just a thought, an illusion. That's what we will be investigating. That would include the notion 'I am the awareness'. 'Self falling away' is an expectation. What if it transpires that 'self' both does and does not appear to 'fall away'? Would there be disappointment? .

I think I am the one looking through these eyes. I am the one seeing thoughts and standing there and observing what this person is doing. It still happens sometimes that I get hooked in the person and for a moment I think those are my emotions and thoughts. But most of the time I see myself observing the person and sometimes are in awe how the person reacts. But there is still a definite feeling of an "I", just in the costume of a body.
I had a lot of visions before seeing myself in many different lives with different bodies. Yes I know I am not a body, but I can see that is also just another belief that I am this entity choosing bodies. I would like to see that there is no entity at all

Thank you for that description. Let's look at the first thing you wrote, 'I think I am the one looking through these eyes'. You say you know you are not your body. Consider the following:

In standard communication, we say 'I see' and it may (or may not) be assumed that it is the body that is 'me' that is doing the seeing.

So - Right now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.
So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

Can anything be found? There is the thought 'I see', but is there actually an 'I' to be found that does the seeing?
If so, what is that?
Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is there just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone? '


Warm regards,

Jon.

[Lalita]

What if it transpires that 'self' both does and does not appear to 'fall away'? Would there be disappointment?

No there would definitely be no dissapointment

I took all day to ponder on your mail.

So - Right now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.
So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

No there is no body seeing, reading and writing this. Even the distinctions where the "I am reading" and "just words on the screen" seem to flow together after a while, it seems to be all the same. I don't know if that makes any sense

Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is there just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone?

yes it is just that, just the experience of seeing.
But what is aware of all that? Isn't that awareness what makes a human different then a dog who is also just experiencing seeing?
Is it just awareness? and not I am, I exist?
That feeling is also made up?
there is struggling of letting go of all ideas and seeings - any sense of self, I is made up? and that is the illusion? even the sense of existing?
this is deeply touching

[JonathanR]

Hello Lalita,

No there would definitely be no dissapointment

Good. That's important.

No there is no body seeing, reading and writing this. Even the distinctions where the "I am reading" and "just words on the screen" seem to flow together after a while, it seems to be all the same. I don't know if that makes any sense

Yes it does.

yes it is just that, just the experience of seeing.

Good. This sort of investigation can be applied with all the senses, not only seeing. For examle, if you are sitting in a chair a slight pressure is felt at areas of contact between body and chair. Look at this experience, this felt sensation. Is there a body, 'me', 'doing sitting' 'experiencing pressure' or is there simply the sensation alone?

But what is aware of all that? Isn't that awareness what makes a human different then a dog who is also just experiencing seeing?

It is difficult to speak for a dog's experience except theoretically. But in our case perhaps the capacity/interest/need to reflect and notice that there is only the seeing is the difference?

there is struggling of letting go of all ideas and seeings - any sense of self, I is made up? and that is the illusion? even the sense of existing?
this is deeply touching

It is deeply touching.

Can 'I' or 'me' be found anywhere in experience?
Does 'self' 'exist' outside of thought?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[Lalita]

Is there a body, 'me', 'doing sitting' 'experiencing pressure' or is there simple sensation alone?

Whatever experience there is in this body, it is just that. Sensations, feelings, emotions, thoughts without anybody experiencing it

Can 'I' or 'me' be found anywhere in experience?

When I start looking for a self that is behind the experiences, a space of silence opens up and there is just feeling, reading, sitting etc with no self there

Does a 'self' 'exists' outside of thought?

I honestly don't know. I couldn't find a self and what I took for a self - the sense of awareness, there is even awareness of that. I couldn't find a self but still the sense of an 'I' is still there. It is still effort to confirm again and again that there is no self. So where do I go from here? Do I keep confirmingin each moment, there is no I until even the sense of an I goes away?
It feels like 'I' didn't get it

Best wishes Lalita

[JonathanR]

Whatever experience there is in this body, it is just that. Sensations, feelings, emotions, thoughts without anybody experiencing it

That's good. I recommend hearing too. Is it possible to find 'that which hears' or is 'doing hearing'? Close your eyes and listen. In this experience, locate a distant sound. Now, Is there any line or break where 'you' 'end' nd the distant sound 'begins'?

When I start looking for a self that is behind the experiences, a space of silence opens up and there is just feeling, reading, sitting etc with no self there

That is great Lalita.

I couldn't find a self but still the sense of an 'I' is still there. It is still effort to confirm again and again that there is no self. So where do I go from here? Do I keep confirmingin each moment, there is no I until even the sense of an I goes away?
It feels like 'I' didn't get it

Don't worry. We're only starting as yet. Let's move our focus. We need to look for 'I'. Let's look at thought now.

When this space of silence opens up as senses are noticed are there moments when thoughts also happen? These thoughts are not the same thing as the immediacy of seeing, hearing etc, are they?

would you say that thoughts are something extra, added on to the immediate sensation? A bit like a commentary?


Best wishes,

Jon.

[Lalita]

That is funny that you recommended hearing. There is only sound, nothing else. Nothing beginning or ending anywhere. Thank you for making me aware of that. I never looked like that

I couldn't copy and quote on my phone. So I'm just answering your questions like that.
No thoughts are not resulting from experiences of senses. What I see is that sensations in the body are happening and thoughts are flowing through this space like clouds on the sky. First it looks like those are my thoughts arising from my personal thinking about something. But actually they come in without any control mostly.
Yes sometimes the thoughts are like a commentary on a sensual input. The mind trying to explain things and make a story. But a lot of times those thoughts coming in have no relation to any sensation happening.
As a child I would use the thought train to fall asleep, jumping from one thought to the next and I could see it like a movie

[JonathanR]

Actually, similar investigations may be carried out with each of the senses. It's worth looking at 'touch' 'taste' and 'smell'. Is 'a person' experiencing these or is there just the sensation alone?

No thoughts are not resulting from experiences of senses. What I see is that sensations in the body are happening and thoughts are flowing through this space like clouds on the sky. First it looks like those are my thoughts arising from my personal thinking about something. But actually they come in without any control mostly.

It's good to notice this.

So, from what you observe, is there a 'me' creating thoughts?

As you say, it seems that thoughts appear anyway.

Important. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Do thoughts 'do' anything? Do they make anything happen?



Jon.

[Lalita]

So, from what you observe, is there a 'me' creating thoughts?

No definitely no me creating any thoughts. But I am still identified with this observing consciousness. the one just seeing everything arising and leaving again. I don't know how to break that believe.

Do thoughts 'do' anything? Do they make anything happen?

Good Question. it seems that sometimes thoughts make things happen, like I want to book an airline ticket. And it seems that would have not happened without following a thought concept first. but in my case I would say the majority of thoughts doesn't do anything.

thank you
Lalita

[Lalita]

No not true. thoughts do everything. they create that Identity of me. they create how "I" perceive the world and create the world of "me". A thought that says it's bad, can make my stomach contract. thoughts that are believed, create everything. but not believed in they are powerless

[JonathanR]

But, for example, can thought pick up a cup?

Thought thinks about it but what picks up the cup in actual experince?

. But I am still identified with this observing consciousness. the one just seeing everything arising and leaving again. I don't know how to break that believe.

Yes. Look at this now. Is there an 'entity' that 'does' this seeing?

'Observing consciousness' implies a 'self' that 'watches everything'. But turn around and look for 'self'. One can't be found, can it? . Yes, thought keeps asserting 'self exists', 'self is aware'.

But look. Does this 'seeing everything' have an owner or a doer; does it?

Imagine for a moment losing any thought that the 'seeing everything' is noticed by a 'me'. Would the absence of "me' prevent 'seeing everything'?

You did not answer one question that is important. Here it is again.. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

Best wishes,

Jon.