Another guide please

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marka
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guide please :)

Postby marka » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:34 am

Hello, looking for someone to help me realise the truth.

I have a spiritual background in Kabalah and the western mystery tradition, many moons ago now, but more recently (the passed 3 years) through yoga.

It is this yoga education and training that has awakened me to the possibility of realising my true self. I have also followed Gangaji and Mooji at times.

I have a deep held love of God and believe God to exist in some form or another. I also believe that there is the divine within all of us, and that is what realisation does - allows this divine prescence to be embraced.

I think that I have a lot of expectations and beliefs to work through! I am happy to do this in order to fully know the truth ..... and just pray that there is some sort of divine left when all the dust settles!

I am currently reading through Gateless Gatecrashers and it has already helped me to recognise that thoughts really do seem to arise from no where. That said, it has also produced a lot of fear and doubt and I've no idea where this inquiry may ultimately lead me.

Work wise my background has been psychology, drug and alcohol services and as a therapist treating anxiety and depression.
Currently I don't do any of that - I now teach yoga. The yoga brought me on a spiritual path and the work I used to do I decided to leave alone (although still have difficulty letting the therapy training go!)

That's about me, I am prepared as I can be to investigate the truth of my being and of reality.

Can someone guide me please?

Love you,
Mark

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:50 pm

I can help!

My role here is to lead you through some direct pointing exercises. Hopefully all I'll do is ask questions. You'll see whatever you see. Some conditions:

1) please confirm that you've read the disclaimer located here http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/ and that you are OK having me be your guide.

2) say which of these doesn't work for you:

You agree to post at least once a day. If you are busy, just a "still here" let's us know you are still there. If you post more than once a day, I'll try to reply so that we can get this done more efficiently.

You'll answer questions honestly, based on your senses, not your thinking. Please avoid personal details in your responses. I won't ask personal questions.

Let's try to keep things short, eschewing long answers, analytical answers, wordy answers. It is easier for you, for me and for the others that will read this. We'll get much better feedback from other guides if there's less words for them to wade through when we're done.

Please don't worry that we'll miss things due to the last point. If things are ambiguous or I'm curious, I'll ask more questions.

You agree to put aside your nonduality teachings, meditation teaching and philosophies until we finish - eg videos, articles and books. The point isn't to starve you of intellectual food, but rather ramping up the thinking - which seems to be what consuming media does - doesn't help us to talk about it in a fresh way. If you have a daily meditation practice, you are welcome to keep doing that.

Please look at this and use the quote function. It will make it easier on me and the other guides: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

3) if you have any requests, please let me know

4) let's avoid using names. If I write a message here, it is for you and vice versa.

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:11 pm

Thanks.
say which of these doesn't work for you:
they all work for me.

If, at times, I do respond with a wordy answer it might be that that is part of my process which I need feedback on but I will respect short as much as possible.

3 - not so much a request - I am at present teaching a yoga course. It does involve me reading and listening to things in order to prepare lectures. Its not a 'practice' as such.

I am fully prepared to engage with this.

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:12 pm

oh, and I've read the disclaimer and I am OK having you be my guide.

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:28 pm

OK. Quick question. You wrote:
I have a deep held love of God and believe God to exist in some form or another. I also believe that there is the divine within all of us, and that is what realisation does - allows this divine prescence to be embraced.
When you believe in God, can you find the "I" that believes? When you believe the divine is in all of us, what can you tell me about the "I"?

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:14 pm

There's no need to get stuck on the last question. If you can find the "believer", tell me more. If not, please just say so.

OK, it might help if you could listen to this (and do the exercises as you listen) - http://liberationunleashed.com/LU_Audio ... n%2004.mp3

You'll hear about "direct experience" here - and all your answers are supposed to be about direct experience, so it is important that you get that under your belt as soon as possible.

You've got a yoga practice - that's wonderful. Please try paying attention while you do yoga - paying attention to the "direct experience" of doing yoga. The feeling of the floor, your body as it moves and touches stuff. You probably do that already.

And then do that and try to find the "I" that is doing the yoga. That is, if you're doing yoga and I ask, "hey, what are you doing?!" You'd say, "I'm doing yoga." Please do the yoga, pay attention to the direct experience of the yoga - and try to find that "I" that is "doing" the yoga in your direct experience.

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:42 pm

When you believe in God, can you find the "I" that believes? When you believe the divine is in all of us, what can you tell me about the "I"?
Hmm .... if it were a thought only maybe it would be easier; my belief in God is more of a felt sense, an inner felt sense.

I'm not sure if there is any 'I' in that .... but maybe if I just stick to sensation, an internal sensation then no, I don't think there is any I, just an internal sensation.

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:35 am

Thanks for looking and giving an honest answer.

Let's keep going. Please listen to that audio, tell me what comes up, try to find the inner yogi, etc.

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:49 am

I'm not sure if there is any 'I' in that .... but maybe if I just stick to sensation, an internal sensation then no, I don't think there is any I, just an internal sensation
That was a super important observation.

When you read these words now, can you identify an "I" that is reading them?

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:30 am

Um - no .... there is just reading!

although I do get a curious sensation in my brain, like a pressure, as I'm really TRYING to look to discover if there is an 'I', maybe that's the 'I'?!

I'll do the audio today.

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:38 pm

Um - no .... there is just reading!
Ok, another very important observation.
If I asked you, "what are you doing now?" I would guess you'd immediatly respond, "I am reading"

Do you see how that answer wouldn't fit your subjective experience?
although I do get a curious sensation in my brain, like a pressure, as I'm really TRYING to look to discover if there is an 'I', maybe that's the 'I'?!
How could you be a feeling that has just arose because you're paying attention? Wouldn't that be like me noticing my stomach grumbling for the first time and thinking, "maybe I am that grumbling?"

More importantly, you look for an "I", don't find it and notice a funny feeling. You have a thought, "maybe that is it" - do you think this is absurd? Whether it is "I am reading" (when you can't find a reader) or "maybe I'm that feeling" (because you noticed something), the thoughts don't make any sense. And we are talking about you, the most important thing in your universe.

What is going on here? If you look now, what is happening? What are you?

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:28 pm

the thoughts don't make any sense
yes, now you've pointed it out I can only agree.

Listened to that audio. I can understand that there may not be an 'I' as I have simply assumed for all my life. However, it really feels like there is more than 'seeing or hearing or sensationing' .....

or, maybe more truthful ..... it feels like there should be more. Maybe that's just the habits and the past and the patterns.
f you look now, what is happening? What are you?
It seems that there are a lot of seemingly independent processes at work. Seeing. Typing. Thinking - a lot of internal dialogue I've noticed.

What am I?

I've no idea is the honest response.

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:49 pm

And as to whether I choose what thoughts cone into existence:

they just seem to appear. But then I notice this ongoing commentary, as if that is directing the experience.

When I look at that closer, the voice seemed to speak a lot quicker, put lots of things together in a sentence (as if it was trying to justify itself i.e. 'see, I really do direct things').

Then there was this sense that the voice was panicking ..... although I'm not sure what/who made that interpretation - more of the story I guess?

That observation seemed to end with the voice fading away, and thought wants to put a lot of meaning to that also i.e. that it (the voice) is getting scared, that it's about to get found so does the only thing it can do to protect itself - disappear.

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Armstrong
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Re: guide please :)

Postby Armstrong » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:56 pm

So far so good. You seem honest and that is the most important thing to get this done. My sense is that you are quite close to the end.
or, maybe more truthful ..... it feels like there should be more. Maybe that's just the habits and the past and the patterns.
If you assume there's more, how would you know if you got it all? There a "you" that has a problem. You can't know if the problem is ever fixed, as there might always be more. And "you" having a problem leads to you feeling bad. So you'll feel bad, forever, because you're thinking you've got a problem.

So is that just a thought? Where'd that thought come from? Do you remember authoring it, or did it just spring into your head and you typed it out? Is there any reason to think it is more correct than "I'm reading" or "I'm that feeling in the head"?

This is very important. Your mind will assail you with doubts. If you believe the thoughts like "I'm not done" or "I'm broken", you'll fall into a pit (see above).

It might be good if you listen to this audio, in preparation for doing some more looking: http://liberationunleashed.com/LU_Audio ... n%2003.mp3


Did you do the exercises in the direct pointing audio - the first audio? If you listen, it is pretty clear what the "right" answers are. Did you experience things that way, or were there exercises where you didn't see things the "right" way? If there's any sticking points, please say so now so we can deal with them right away.

Can you please try doing yoga and looking at what it is like in terms of direct experience? You have a steady yoga practice, and I figure you've been mindful - so there's probably a lot of low-hanging fruit with you and yoga.

E.g. when you do yoga, do you feel the outline of your body, or just shifting pressure/visual/auditory sensations? Is there a you that moves your limbs? Is there separation between you and the experiencing? Or is there just experiencing and no you? A metaphor: you are in a car, behind the wheel, driving the car. And then you realize the car is driving itself.

Please do some yoga (10 minutes?) and report back on what it is like in terms of direct experience (the stuff in that first audio). Feel free to get metaphorical, describe it however suits you.

Good luck! This is fascinating.

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marka
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Re: guide please :)

Postby marka » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:33 pm

So is that just a thought? ..... Is there any reason to think it is more correct than "I'm reading" or "I'm that feeling in the head"?
Yes! It is quite simply another thought! It is the same.

Hmm. My sticking point though is somewhat related:

the sense of 'I', the whole thing is so compelling. That is, when thought is occurring and it is composed of several sensory components. This happens a lot if I'm thinking about future things.
To explain some detail, say there is visual, and say its a moving picture. Then there is also commentary, internal dialogue - it often involves myself and another so its a conversation, internally, imagined. Also, there can be an element of desire if I'm imagining it as an outcome I want. All wrapped up in a few seconds of a movie in my mind.

.... and this whole thing together is such a compelling argument for an 'I', even though there isn't one. During these all consuming episodes of thought its like they subtly, so subtly, trick me into believing its being directed by 'I', by the me-ness! (or, in those moments, I forget to question, to challenge the I-ness).
And so therefore, by default, its like an 'I' exists ..... even though it doesn't when I take the time to really look.

I hope this makes sense.

I know this is potentially back to the beginning - i.e. It is quite simply another thought! - but it concerns me the sheer power it seems to have.


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