Requesting a guide

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Gints
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Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:05 pm

Hi to everyone!
English is not my native language so please be prepared for it. I am in this theme for years and years. My main info and inspiration sources are Kastaneda and Jiddu Krishnamurty. I can honestly say that I am reading these books for years almost every day, and I think I have accomplished quite a good level of intellectual understanding of subject, but done very little. Not that I am not willing to do. I have done a lot, but somehow transformation is not happening. Of course during my path I have hundreds of aha’s, but… I feel something is missing. I am still stacked in Ego. Mostly all of my reactions remain the same. In tense, difficult situations, when I have no time to think or contemplate I react as an idiot and definitely not as God-self. What I am saying is that one thing is when you are sitting in warm comfortable room with plenty of your favourite food and thinking about subject and another is when you are in danger or hungry or even your dearest person says you are invaluable, stupid idiot. I know what my reactions are telling me. These all are Ego reactions and not much have changed during time.
I read both e-books. They are great. I read throw transformation process in 2nd chapter understood everything, but happened nothing. So I am here for guide. I am here searching for transformation even thou I know that it is Ego who wants transformation. God-self cannot because he is it. It is Ego doing to want something other than it is. This is funny you can understand this, but it doesn't change much. You still want transformation you still long for God-self. You want to perceive the world throw God-self eyes.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart!

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Freddi
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Freddi » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:28 pm

Hi Gints, Welcome to LU!

This is Fred from France. Very nice to meet you.

A few quick guidelines: look to post daily/regularly or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

Also, our disclaimer:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

If you'd like to begin, here's a starter: Where do 'you' reside?

Warm wishes,
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Gints
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:31 pm

Hi Fred!
Thank you for choosing me!
I confirm that I have read disclaimer and have accepted it.
When I am trying to find my self, I cannot. I can find thoughts, feelings, feeling or knowing of myself. I have a profound feeling of myself as separate entity. And it doesn't change anything if I completely understand that it is only feeling of myself. That the main thing is feeling. Feeling of myself doesn't mean myself, but.....So honestly I can't tell you where do I reside, but somehow I know it should be somewhere. Now I am looking at myself and I feel me. When I started to dive into it I see feelings+thoughts i can 't find me but then again some thought is asking who is that who is feeling, aha there is someone who is feeling all this, feeling can't hang in empty space someone is holding them owning them. And so on... I have some picture in my mind that I am some kind of energy structure where different thoughts, feelings, believes, stereotypes are circulating. Then i ask who is holding this picture and i see it is image it is thought and again thought that someone must hold it. And again, again.

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Gints
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:45 pm

By the way it is so nice that you are from France. I love France. I have lived in Frejus for 7 months and for 2 months in Paris. Mediterranean is absolutely incredible. I am from Latvia.

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Freddi
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Freddi » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:17 pm

Hi Gints

For the purpose of this enquiry, I would like us to look only in what our actual experience gives us. I am not interested in what thoughts say. Just THIS, ok?
To be sure we’re on the same track, when I ask you a question, stay with it for a while, step out of the mind stream, come back to your senses. Notice what is alive, here and now, what is seen, heard, touched, felt, and also the seeing, the hearing etc. If a thought comes, that’s ok, just acknowledge its passing, don’t engage with its content.

So we can leave things like:
I have some picture in my mind that I am some kind of energy structure where different thoughts, feelings, believes, stereotypes are circulating.
Now on to a few questions for you to ponder:
I have a profound feeling of myself as separate entity.
Can you describe, in the simplest terms, what that ‘feeling’ is like in your direct experience? What qualities does it have? Any physical attributes? How does it manifest?
feeling can't hang in empty space someone is holding them owning them … Then i ask who is holding this picture and i see it is image it is thought and again thought that someone must hold it
What makes you say things like ‘feelings can’t hang in empty space’ and ‘someone must hold it’? Is it some learned, acquired assumption? If your direct experience does not show a ‘you’, why do you look into your thoughts and assume there has to be one, somewhere?
We are questioning all assumptions, here, anything learned that is not our actual experience. Stripping back all the layers of mental stuff and getting back to basics. Are you ok with this?

Are ‘you’ doing the breathing? Or is breathing happening all by itself?
Are ‘you’ growing your nails? Or do nails grow automatically?
Do ‘you’ choose the moment you fall asleep or the moment you wake up?
Why do you assume that feeling, thinking can’t happen automatically?

Stay with these questions for a a while. Only scan what is given by the aliveness of this moment. Don’t tell me what you think, just what you see, and let me what what comes up for each of them.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Gints
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:01 pm

For the purpose of this enquiry, I would like us to look only in what our actual experience gives us. I am not interested in what thoughts say. Just THIS, ok?
OK
We are questioning all assumptions, here, anything learned that is not our actual experience. Stripping back all the layers of mental stuff and getting back to basics. Are you ok with this?
Yes.
Can you describe, in the simplest terms, what that ‘feeling’ is like in your direct experience? What qualities does it have? Any physical attributes? How does it manifest?
I see my name, I mean I have sense of my name as something in me is saying Gints and this is somehow connected with physical feeling in the middle of chest. Yes feeling that I am located in my body. I will try once more. First impulse is feeling in my chest, little bit heavy and little bit unpleasant and then knowing it is me.
If your direct experience does not show a ‘you’, why do you look into your thoughts and assume there has to be one, somewhere?
I am not doing this intentionally, thoughts are coming and telling it to me and I believe them, again unintentionally.
Are ‘you’ doing the breathing? Or is breathing happening all by itself?
Breathing is happening, but I can do with it what I want.
Are ‘you’ growing your nails? Or do nails grow automatically?
They grow automatically
Do ‘you’ choose the moment you fall asleep or the moment you wake up?
No
Why do you assume that feeling, thinking can’t happen automatically?
I am used to that kind of thinking. It feels strange and some feeling of insecurity and losing of control comes.

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Gints
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:31 pm

If I can ask.....
Who is choosing? Who is deciding? If there is no one then how anything can be decided?
If I can answer....
There is some process taking place. There is some thought in mind, then comes another, then another thought decides (deciding thought) which of previous thoughts to take further.... and so on. This process is based on some earlier established preferences, some patterns. If it is so there are no one who can respond be responsible about this process.
While writing I can see this. It is even logically seen that there can be such a situation. No me situation.
Next, there is feeling in body. Who feels? Body feels. Body is me? Definitely no. Then where is me? Nowhere. Again from the point of logics all fits. And so what?

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Freddi
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Freddi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:44 am

Hi Gints
I see my name, I mean I have sense of my name as something in me is saying Gints
Stop and LOOK. Where do you SEE a name? Is it really there or is it imagined?
First impulse is feeling in my chest, little bit heavy and little bit unpleasant and then knowing it is me.
Look deeply into that feeling in your chest. Stay with it, really be curious about it. Before any interpretation like ‘knowing it is me’, how does the feeling get translated into ‘you’? Can you clearly see that link? Is the link tangible, verifiable, or is it imagined?
Fred: If your direct experience does not show a ‘you’, why do you look into your thoughts and assume there has to be one, somewhere?
Gints: I am not doing this intentionally, thoughts are coming and telling it to me and I believe them, again unintentionally.

Who or what is believing the thoughts? Why rely on thoughts that tell you there is a ‘you’ over and above what your experience gives you?
If I asked you to cross a busy junction, with your eyes and ears covered, and solely rely on your thoughts to cross, would you do it?
Breathing is happening, but I can do with it what I want.
OK a little exercise for you. I want you to stop breathing for an hour, then come back and tell me how that went (or maybe ask a friend ;-))
How do ‘you’ control the breathing, while in deep sleep? Or when there is no thinking about it?
It feels strange and some feeling of insecurity and losing of control comes.
Good. Explore that feeling, Welcome it, don’t resist it. What is it saying? Is there anything else behind?

We’ll come back to your second post when you have looked at these few questions. Again, take your time, and only answer from your actual experience.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Gints
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:19 am

Hi Fred!
Look deeply into that feeling in your chest. Stay with it, really be curious about it. Before any interpretation like ‘knowing it is me’, how does the feeling get translated into ‘you’? Can you clearly see that link? Is the link tangible, verifiable, or is it imagined?
I see this feeling, it is changing location and intensity. Also some kind of image of me (as I know me from watching in mirror) comes already after that feeling. I can see that these two phenomena are not connected directly. They come one after other.
Who or what is believing the thoughts? Why rely on thoughts that tell you there is a ‘you’ over and above what your experience gives you?
Logically it doesn't make sense.
OK a little exercise for you. I want you to stop breathing for an hour, then come back and tell me how that went (or maybe ask a friend ;-))
How do ‘you’ control the breathing, while in deep sleep? Or when there is no thinking about it?
I agree that breathing is happening.
Good. Explore that feeling, Welcome it, don’t resist it. What is it saying? Is there anything else behind?
I can see that there some very strong and quick process of assigning all feelings to someone takes place. Thinking and feeling is so closely connected, that it seems almost impossible to disconnect them. I see this "labelling" process. All feelings and reactions are labelled. This already labelled content creates me. Some thought is looking at it and "thoughting" it is me.

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Freddi
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Freddi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:50 am

Hi Gints

Can you make sure you answer all the questions I ask? Thanks! I'll copy the skipped ones here:

1) Gints: I see my name, I mean I have sense of my name as something in me is saying Gints
Fred: Stop and LOOK. Where do you SEE a name? Is it really there or is it imagined?

2) Who or what is believing the thoughts that pretend there is a 'me'? Don't think, LOOK.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Gints
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:10 pm

Hi!
Sorry. I can do.
Gints: I see my name, I mean I have sense of my name as something in me is saying Gints
Fred: Stop and LOOK. Where do you SEE a name? Is it really there or is it imagined?
I see it in my mind. It is imagined.
Who or what is believing the thoughts that pretend there is a 'me'?
No one there is no believer.

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Freddi
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Freddi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:38 pm

Hi Gints,

1)
Fred: Where do you SEE a name? Is it really there or is it imagined?
Gints: I see it in my mind. It is imagined.
OK. Is what is imagined real? You see thoughts coming and going all the time, now look at the content of them. Is their content real? Is it happening?

2)
I see this feeling, it is changing location and intensity. Also some kind of image of me (as I know me from watching in mirror) comes already after that feeling. I can see that these two phenomena are not connected directly. They come one after other.
Exactly, the connection between the feeling and the idea of ‘me’ is imagined, assumed, it’s like a conditioned reflex, but it does not make it real, does it?
What makes the image in the mirror ‘you’? How do you KNOW for sure that it is ‘you’?

3)
Fred: Why rely on thoughts that tell you there is a ‘you’ over and above what your experience gives you?
Gints; Logically it doesn't make sense.

You see, Gints, it is so simple that the mind cannot see it. It overlooks it. If I asked you now whether your keys are in your pocket, you could look into your thoughts to try and remember where you last saw them, or you could just put your hand in your pocket and check. I guess you would opt for the second option ;-)
It is the same with the ‘self’.
If I ask you to whether, right here and now, a 'self' can be seen/touched/felt/heard/tasted, what do you say?

4)
Thinking and feeling is so closely connected, that it seems almost impossible to disconnect them. I see this "labelling" process. All feelings and reactions are labelled. This already labelled content creates me. Some thought is looking at it and "thoughting" it is me.
Great LOOKING in your actual experience. You clearly see the feelings, the reactions, the movements, the experiencing, and you also see the labelling of it all. You say that it is almost impossible to disconnect them.
This may help: if you have a favourite sport, go on YouTube and watch a few minutes of it. First with the commentator’s voice on, then turn the commentator’s voice off, then turn it on again.
Then answer these questions:

- Without the commentary, does the game become chaotic and disjointed?
- Does the commentary have any effect on the game?
- Can the commentator affect the score?
- Does the presence of the commentator’s voice change anything at all?
- Is it any different with the labelling of emotions and experience?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Gints
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:59 pm

Hi Fred!
Is what is imagined real? You see thoughts coming and going all the time, now look at the content of them. Is their content real? Is it happening?
No it's not real, it is not happening.
What makes the image in the mirror ‘you’? How do you KNOW for sure that it is ‘you’?
When I look at other people I see that they are the same in mirror and reality, so i assume that with me is the same case. I am not so different from them.
If I ask you to whether, right here and now, a 'self' can be seen/touched/felt/heard/tasted, what do you say?
It can't bee seen/touched/felt/heard/tasted but it doesn't mean it is non existent. We can't do all these things with electricity, but we know it exists because of effects it makes.
Without the commentary, does the game become chaotic and disjointed?
- Does the commentary have any effect on the game?
- Can the commentator affect the score?
- Does the presence of the commentator’s voice change anything at all?
- Is it any different with the labelling of emotions and experience?
No

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Gints
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Gints » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:08 pm

The case is following. When I am concentrating on what you are telling me I can see all this, but as soon as I return to my everyday life I return to my everyday feeling and knowing of Myself even if I can't find myself nowhere.

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Freddi
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Re: Requesting a guide

Postby Freddi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:16 pm

Hi again Gints,

Only one word answer to my four questions about the sport commentary? :-(
Take your time with these, a quick answer will almost always be a mind answer.
It can't bee seen/touched/felt/heard/tasted but it doesn't mean it is non existent. We can't do all these things with electricity, but we know it exists because of effects it makes.
You start by telling me that the content of thought is not real, it is not happening, then you look straight into thoughts to answer the above questions. If, as you say, the ‘self’ can’t be found, but still exists, where does it exist? Can you show me? What is its shape, its size, its colour? Or is it in thought only?
When I am concentrating on what you are telling me I can see all this, but as soon as I return to my everyday life I return to my everyday feeling and knowing of Myself even if I can't find myself nowhere.
Describe ‘feeling and knowing of myself’ in actual, first-hand experience.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts


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