Looking to pass through the gateless gate

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:07 pm

Hello,

I was hoping to find someone who can help me see the truth.

Thank you in advance,

Don

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:29 pm

Hello Don,


Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jonathan (Jon for short). I'd be happy to guide you.

I wonder if you would tel me a little about your journey so far? What brings you here? What you may hope to gain? This could include any expectations or hopes you may have.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Jon.

User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:00 pm

My self description - My name is Don, I am in my early 40's, I am an engineer by education, and run a large manufacturing equipment business. I grew up in a verbally and physically abusive family and have spent the first 40 years of my life living in the dream world trying to prove that I am good enough, trying to be perfect, and trying to create what I thought I needed to be happy. I tried to control my entire world and the people within it. I was toxic to those around me, but could not see that I was doing anything wrong. I turned to alcohol in my 30's to numb the pain I experienced from the gap created by reality and my "self". In mid 2012, I went through some very difficult times in my marriage, which totally shattered my ego or sense of self at the time and I hit rock bottom. I quit drinking entirely and by chance found Eckhardt Tolle's "The Power of Now" book at the airport bookstore during a business trip. His ideas hit home so I then read David Mutchler's book titled "Beyond the Ego". In the book, there was a section that detailed how to spot the ego, the behaviors that we exhibited because of the false story that we tell ourselves. I couldn't put the book down and read it until 2 am. This is where my journey started.

The following morning, I awoke in a completely different state of consciousness, unaware that a different state of consciousness even existed. I struggle to find the words to describe it, but it was a state of bliss and everything was much brighter. I felt at peace with everything and a part of everything, it felt like heaven to me. I had no concerns, no needs, no desires, no fear, it was like everything was perfect. I felt like I was in the "flow" of life, in the "now" and simply watching what was going on instead of directing it. When I was driving, there was no "me" driving, just driving. It was the most beautiful experience I have ever had. I was not thinking of the past or the future, just in the moment. My mind was silent, totally silent without any thoughts or noise running through it. I felt safe and secure like everything was perfect. My interactions with people were beautiful, I felt ok with myself and loving/caring. I had to go to work that day, which cut my moment of bliss short and brought me back to a peaceful state, but closer to my prior reality. In all, I had about 4 to 5 hours in that state of consciousness. That evening, some mental noise and activity returned to my mind, but over the course of the week I woke up to total silence in my mind 3 different times. I had no idea what was happening, nor the magnitude of the gift I had been given. It was through this experience that I felt as though I had "seen behind the curtain" so to speak that I was not who I thought I was. This was my awakening, but my ego/self was quick to rebuild using the awakening as my new accomplishment and part of "my" story.

Since this time I have been on a search for the truth of what happened to me, what is real, and trying to get back to this state of consciousness (I still don't truly know). It has consumed a large portion of my time and feels like a flame burning inside of me that drives me to find the truth and once and for all drop the self. I have read countless books on non-duality, ate my bowl of OSHO O's, and meditated trying to find the answer and got to the point that I was so tired and frustrated that I stopped searching, thinking the searching was what was keeping me from finding "it". This lasted for about a month and I began to feel like my ego was rebuilding and getting stronger, so I went on-line and purchased a book, the Gateless Gate Crashers, which has led me here.

I am looking for the truth and to live in the present moment. For many months, I have felt mentally crazy as I can see my thoughts that are ego/self based and I know intellectually that they are not real, but I still attach to some of them and reap the pain that they cause to both me and those in my life. Although I have seen behind the curtain, I still feel like I am a somebody who is running the show, in charge of my life, and making decisions on where it goes. Intellectually I know this is not the truth, but haven't found a way to "know" it is the truth. To reference the book, I intellectually believe that Batman is not real, but shine the Bat Signal into the night sky. I am confused, lost, frustrated, and tired of reading books expecting a different outcome.

I am 100% committed to this process, only this process, and will be totally open and honest. I need someone who can help guide me, but who is also patient in explaining things.

User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:03 pm

Jon,

I wanted to thank you up front for working with me, missed that in my original post.

Don

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:49 am

Hi Don,

Thank you so much for that very beautiful and clear description.

Let's deal with a few formalities first.


You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.


If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please read and agree to the following:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.


- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- The 'quote' function tends to come in handy during conversation. instructions on how to use this are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

If you are happy to agree to the above, we can start the process.

So, let us start at the begining. Please tell me what it is that you think 'you' are?


Warm regards,

Jon.

User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:25 am

Jon,

I agree to the items you listed and thank you for guiding me.

I intellectually know that there is no 'me', but answering honestly, I think that I am everything that I have experienced, the summation of my accomplishments, failures, and experiences during my life.

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:02 am

Don,

I agree to the items you listed and thank you for guiding me.
You are very welcome.

Just before we go on you said earlier
Since this time I have been on a search for the truth of what happened to me, what is real, and trying to get back to this state of consciousness (I still don't truly know).
This is an understandable aim, given the experience you described, however it is important to proceed without a fixed idea of how seeing through the illusion of 'self' should feel or seem, particularly in relation to any expectstion of a particular previous state of consciousness. This then leaves the door wide open for whatever may be realised.
I intellectually know that there is no 'me', but answering honestly, I think that I am everything that I have experienced, the summation of my accomplishments, failures, and experiences during my life.
That is to describe 'you' as some kind of list or account of events, like an obituary, isn't it?

But what are 'you' really? Can 'you' be found? If I said 'there is a gorilla in that cupboard' you could check this simply by looking, couldn't you? So, look right now for 'self', look for 'you' and let me know how you get on.


Warm regards,

Jon.

User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:17 am

Greetings Jon,

I will approach this with an open mind.
I need some time to think through your question, it has some teeth to it. I will reply tomorrow.

Thank you!!

User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:56 am

Jon,

Wow, that was a good question!!

I, self, me are just words, they are not physical things that you can touch or hold, and are similar to words like group, collection, conglomerate. You cannot find these things, even in my cupboard. ((-:
Put a pair of shoes and a hat on the floor and you can call it a group, but you cannot touch 'group', only shoes and a hat.

I began to wonder about being a father, an engineer, a good cook, all labels that defined 'me'. If 'me' isn't real then I am not those either. I am left with a body and mind.

The father thought has me feeling sad, then I think there is no me to feel sad? Feeling confused.

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:52 am

Hi Don,


Thanks for your reply.
I began to wonder about being a father, an engineer, a good cook, all labels that defined 'me'. If 'me' isn't real then I am not those either. I am left with a body and mind. The father thought has me feeling sad, then I think there is no me to feel sad? Feeling confused.
Some confusion is fine right now but please do not imagine that love will somehow be lost. That's not our aim. But also, there is no 'you' to feel sad,.is there?

You mention 'body' and 'mind'.

Generally there is an assumption that the body 'performs' and is responsible for all the senses and that this, collectively, amounts to 'me'.

Let's look at the senses now, 'seeing' to begin with.
In standard communication, we say 'I see' and it may (or may not) be assumed that it is the body that is 'me' that is doing the seeing.

So - Right now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.
So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

Can anything be found? There is the thought 'I see', but is there actually an 'I' to be found that does the seeing?
If so, what is that?
Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is there just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone? '


Best wishes,

Jon.

User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:51 am

Greeting Jon,

I need some time with this one, will reply tomorrow.

Best regards,

Don

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:47 pm

Ok Don,

Thanks for letting me know.

Jon.

User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:54 pm

Hi Jon,
So - Right now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
I cannot find anyone seeing, only seeing happening.
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.
So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.
'I' is a thought. I cannot find anyone seeing, only seeing happening. 'I' is a thought that what is experienced belongs to a 'me'.
Can anything be found? There is the thought 'I see', but is there actually an 'I' to be found that does the seeing?
If so, what is that?
Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is there just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone? '
I don't experience a body seeing, just seeing happening.

Thoughts of life simply living through this body and mind are surfacing. That there is no 'me' in control, only life happening.

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:30 pm

Hi Don,

'I' is a thought. I cannot find anyone seeing, only seeing happening. 'I' is a thought that what is experienced belongs to a 'me'.
Great. That's a good observation. Is 'self' ever more than an assumption that there must be one ?

Is 'I' just the thought 'me', or 'mine'?

Let's investigate this further through the other senses.

Hearing provides a wonderful opportunity. Sit quietly, eyes clsed and just notice whatever is heard right now. This may include the sound of breathing, the hum of a fridge nearby, perhaps. A more distant sound is heard, maybe a car or a dog barking...

Right now, are 'ears' 'doing hearing', do you experience the body hearing or is there just 'hearing' alone?

Notice a more distant sound. Is it possible to find a line where 'you' end and 'sound' begins?
Thoughts of life simply living through this body and mind are surfacing. That there is no 'me' in control, only life happening.
Yes. That's good. Is it possible to find a 'controller' other than as a thought of one?


Jon.

User avatar
TruthSeeker2015
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:01 am

Re: Looking to pass through the gateless gate

Postby TruthSeeker2015 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:11 am

Greetings Jon,
Great. That's a good observation. Is 'self' ever more than an assumption that there must be one ?
I cannot find a 'self' when I look, so it must be an assumption that one exits. I say that, but find myself thinking thoughts, mulling them over, and believing that 'I' am making a decision.

Is this just life occurring/being? Will the same outcome happen without my perceived influence? If I was standing at a crosswalk with a group of people and a bus was coming and someone stepped out not seeing the bus, would the thought to grab the person and pull them back be the same as life acting through me to grab the person and pull them back? Will 'life' simply act through me in the manner in which it was supposed to be?
Is 'I' just the thought 'me', or 'mine'?
Yes it is. I am feeling more comfortable that there is no 'me', 'I' am seeing just a body and mind and life happening, seeing happening, sound sounding, etc. but my mind is running through scenario's trying to challenge this. I realize that this isn't something that I need to understand, only something that I need to see, but my mind is trying hard to understand it. There must be fear behind this. I am struggling to believe that life is happening without my influence. My fears are that I won't parent my children correctly letting life flow through me or I won't do well at work just letting things be as they are when they need to improve. When I dig into this, my thought is that life is already acting through me and there is no 'me', so nothing will be different, but my mind comes up with examples where it feels like there is an 'I' that makes decisions that life wouldn't make. I have no idea what life is or what it does, so I don't know why I think I know how it behaves.
Hearing provides a wonderful opportunity. Sit quietly, eyes closed and just notice whatever is heard right now. This may include the sound of breathing, the hum of a fridge nearby, perhaps a more distant sound is heard, maybe a car or a dog barking...

Right now, are 'ears' 'doing hearing', do you experience the body hearing or is there just 'hearing' alone?
When I do the exercise, I feel hearing is happening alone. No 'one' doing anything.

With all my senses (sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch), I see the body part responsible for the sense(s) sending an electrical signal to the brain where it is interpreted by the brain based on past experiences (which are labels) if they exist, it is then labeled (thought) again and then this thought drives an emotion or action or another thought. An example would be putting your hand on a hot stove.

As I write this, I struggle again with believing that I am in some way in control of what is happening. My thought was of me putting my hand on a hot stove to note the experience and then I thought "why would life have this body put its hand on a hot stove". New thoughts arise as I write this, thoughts are not real and that obviously life already had this body put its hand on a hot stove when it was younger.

Am I following the process correctly by trying to understand this, or should I just be doing the exercises until it is seen?
Notice a more distant sound. Is it possible to find a line where 'you' end and 'sound' begins?
I cannot find a line, nor can I find a 'me' only sound 'sounding'. A feeling of being in the center of sound, the sound waves traveling toward the body from all sides.
Is it possible to find a 'controller' other than as a thought of one?
I cannot find a controller other than the thought of one.

While sitting here I noted that my arm was getting sore and moved its position, the action happened, who put the two together? Was that just life happening through me? Or the mind controlling the body similar to it keeping the heart beating, or breathing?

Don


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests