Hong Konger look for a guide

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my journey
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Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby my journey » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:35 am

I'm from Hong Kong. My time zone is UTC/GMT +8 hours. My English is quite good.
I actually don't know my stage. I read Osho for several years. But since reading A H Almaas books for 5 months, many insights are discovered(through intuition & observing from oneness). I am like him, very curious about truth.

My mind is more still(some inner peace) and I can observe thoughts & my body ,and I discover there's no doer. Everything is reality. I discovered it's difficult to understand abstract ideas like I, ego, consciousness. What i am concerned now is about nonduality, the awareness not being continue(normal?) and feel unease at staring people's eyes(awareness seem towards external).

Thank you!

With love,
Kelvin

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ElPortal
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:03 pm

Hi Kelvin...

... and welcome to LU.
Would you like me to accompany you?

a. If yes, do you realise that this forum exists for guiding to see through the illusion of a separate self? If this what you have come for?

b. Is there anything else you would like to achieve?

Also, if you would like to be accompanied by me please read carefully, and tell me whether you can agree to the following:-

1. Post at least once per day, even if only to say, "I am still here!" If you can't post for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I do is point. You look, until seeing is clear.
3. Look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond as simply as possible from your personal experience only (the felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which can slow down the progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation, even leaving aside other people's LU threads. Really put all your attention into looking into this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

Now just a few practical points:-

P1. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.
P2. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Please confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Cheers

Mark

PS I am in France, so 7 hours behind Hong Kong.
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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my journey
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby my journey » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:13 am

Hi Kelvin...

... and welcome to LU.
Would you like me to accompany you?

a. If yes, do you realise that this forum exists for guiding to see through the illusion of a separate self? If this what you have come for?

b. Is there anything else you would like to achieve?
Yes, thanks!
a.Yes, sure.
b.I want to know about perception. I am inquiring this recently.
Also, if you would like to be accompanied by me please read carefully, and tell me whether you can agree to the following:-

1. Post at least once per day, even if only to say, "I am still here!" If you can't post for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I do is point. You look, until seeing is clear.
3. Look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond as simply as possible from your personal experience only (the felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which can slow down the progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation, even leaving aside other people's LU threads. Really put all your attention into looking into this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

Now just a few practical points:-

P1. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.
P2. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Please confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.
I've seen & agree to them all.

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ElPortal
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:28 am

Hi Kelvin,

That's great. So put down all books by Almas, Osho and every other Spiritual teacher, right? This has to be your own first-hand investigation. Otherwise it's just ideas and concepts.

1. So what expectations do you have for how 'liberation' or 'seeing' will feel? Should they be any different from how you feel now?

2. Can you be more specific about what you want to know about perception?

We will consider two types of experience: 1. direct experience, which includes all sensations via the senses, very immediate - (these are actually happening) - and 2. thoughts, which are assumptions, theories, ABOUT other things, description, labels, interpretation etc.

3, Now, I would like you to practise this by sitting for 5-10 minutes and make a list of everything which is experienced (eg, cat sounds, thought about tomorrow, feeling of chair on leg etc). List everything. Afterwards, look through the list and add after each item either E - for bosily sensations, direct experience, or T - for thoughts, a mental comments, assumptions.

4. Kelvin is a name. a) Is this T or E? Is something which is actually happening or is it a label? b) How about 'your' history? Something which is actually happening (E) or an account, description etc (T) ? c) So how do you know RIGHT NOW that there is any separate individual there called Kelvin? Is it E or is it T?

Kelvin, take your time with these, don't think too hard, but look into the NOW experiences and sensations. Just report back to me honestly what is felt and sensed.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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my journey
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby my journey » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:13 am

1. So what expectations do you have for how 'liberation' or 'seeing' will feel? Should they be any different from how you feel now?
1. I expect I can become more relaxed.

2. Can you be more specific about what you want to know about perception?

We will consider two types of experience: 1. direct experience, which includes all sensations via the senses, very immediate - (these are actually happening) - and 2. thoughts, which are assumptions, theories, ABOUT other things, description, labels, interpretation etc.
2. Like looking at the mirror/ a screen or the reflection of the window, the image(direct perception & reflection) is at the front. Why?
I understand the two types of experience.

3, Now, I would like you to practise this by sitting for 5-10 minutes and make a list of everything which is experienced (eg, cat sounds, thought about tomorrow, feeling of chair on leg etc). List everything. Afterwards, look through the list and add after each item either E - for bosily sensations, direct experience, or T - for thoughts, a mental comments, assumptions.
3. Mostly are actually happening (E). Few are recall of recent event(memory).

4. Kelvin is a name. a) Is this T or E? Is something which is actually happening or is it a label? b) How about 'your' history? Something which is actually happening (E) or an account, description etc (T) ? c) So how do you know RIGHT NOW that there is any separate individual there called Kelvin? Is it E or is it T?
4. Kelvin is a label. History is T. No Kelvin. Only senses present.I can sense the body and environment which are present. The body is labelled as Kelvin.

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ElPortal
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:40 pm

Hi Kelvin

Very good... except for a few things that you have not answered yet:-
1. So what expectations do you have for how 'liberation' or 'seeing' will feel? Should they be any different from how you feel now?
Please answer the second part. And give a fuller answer to the first part, if possible. What does it mean: 'more relaxed'?
3. Now, I would like you to practise this by sitting for 5-10 minutes and make a list of everything which is experienced (eg, cat sounds, thought about tomorrow, feeling of chair on leg etc). List everything. Afterwards, look through the list and add after each item either E - for bosily sensations, direct experience, or T - for thoughts, a mental comments, assumptions.
Please do it again, and write down this list in your response to me. Then add the labels of T or E.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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my journey
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby my journey » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:02 am

Please answer the second part. And give a fuller answer to the first part, if possible. What does it mean: 'more relaxed'?
I have muscle tension around my head and belly some time.
I think I will be freer to do things (not caring about people's view) and more ease to communicate with people.
3. Now, I would like you to practise this by sitting for 5-10 minutes and make a list of everything which is experienced (eg, cat sounds, thought about tomorrow, feeling of chair on leg etc). List everything. Afterwards, look through the list and add after each item either E - for bosily sensations, direct experience, or T - for thoughts, a mental comments, assumptions.
[/quote]
sound of outer machines (E)
bird sound, human sound(E)
thought of a trailer (T)
doing a deep breath (E)
think of a girl (T)
sound of car(E)
bird sound(E)
looking at the house(E)
recall of drinking soymilk (T)
recall of questions you asked(T)
feeling of go to toilet(E)
talk to dad(E)
recall of my brother(T)
thinking what to do in toilet (T)
think of a dilema (T)
sneeze (E)
want to brush teeth after toilet (T)
think of "issue of utilizing time" exist (T)
aware of outside sound (E)
recall of technique of listening to sounds yesterday (T)
after toilet
aware of outside sound(E)
feeling of muscle tention(E)
smelling of cigarette(E)

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ElPortal
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:27 pm

Hi Kelvin

I really enjoyed reading your last TWO posts. Thanks for those. The English is fine too, so far!

From what you write in the first post, it looks as though some seeing through the illusion is already happening, yes?

Sometimes certain expectations can stand in the way of JUST THIS EXPERIENCE, when there is a BELIEF that: "life SHOULD feel like that, or it SHOULD be a certain way" (eg no pain, or less stress, more money), so that instead of accepting the present moment as being all there is, as being perfect, we look for the fiction of "something better". This is nothing more than 'mental complications'. We will look into this together.

A. First, I would like you to go back to the list of everything which is experienced. Either go back to the previous list, or (even better) do a new one from today. Once you have sat and noticed everything for 5-10 minutes, and once you have then added Es and Ts, now do two extra steps:-
i) Take away ALL labels and descriptions from each item on the list, and take a few moments for each experience to notice what is left with no descriptions or words? (Hard to describe, I know, but please have a try!) Feel it.
ii) With each item, now ask: "Is any individual called Kelvin necessary for this experience or can it just happen on its own?" Let me know what comes up.

B. Now, returning to the question of what "Life should feel like, once liberated", you write:-
I have muscle tension around my head and belly some time.
I think I will be freer to do things (not caring about people's view) and more ease to communicate with people.
And earlier you write:-
Kelvin is a label. History is T. No Kelvin. Only senses present.I can sense the body and environment which are present. The body is labelled as Kelvin.
So, now please take time to consider:-
i) Where have these expectations come from? eg a teacher, a book, (teachers can OFTEN leave us with the idea that they have achieved some superior experience, that we do not have yet... but is this true? what can be more ALIVE than THIS moment?)
ii) Who or what is there to 'be freer'? Is Life not already free? Who or what is there that can be "not caring about people's view"? Who or what is there to communicate more easily with people? Can any individual really be found that can do these things? If so, please describe to me what is that individual.
iii) The 'muscle tension': it may come and it may go. But is this part of the aliveness of Life happening or not? Can it be left alone to do as it pleases? To whom or to what is all this happening?

Again, don't hurry with these. Take your time and then tell me what comes up with EACH question.

A pleasure to be accompanying you, Kelvin.

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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my journey
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby my journey » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:22 pm

thanks. Yeah, I have many discoveries. I think I see through illusions. Reality is one and we can't add or eliminate anything from it. I don't think there's an "I". I just feel curious about reality. I go very deep into myself. I discover I am always conscious. I don't know what is unconscious. I actually don't understand the words(like consciousness or even awareness). I now focus on what happens at the moment.
It will take me a few days to answer the questions above.

thanks,
Kelvin

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ElPortal
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:40 pm

Very good, Kelvin.
Good to hear from you and I look forward to more, once you have chance to consider each question.
Let me know if you get stuck!

Warm wishes.

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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my journey
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby my journey » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:11 pm

Merry Christmas.
Still experiencing.

Kelvin

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ElPortal
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:16 pm

OK.
Careful with the festive alcohol, now!
;-)

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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my journey
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby my journey » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:12 pm

A. First, I would like you to go back to the list of everything which is experienced. Either go back to the previous list, or (even better) do a new one from today. Once you have sat and noticed everything for 5-10 minutes, and once you have then added Es and Ts, now do two extra steps:-
i) Take away ALL labels and descriptions from each item on the list, and take a few moments for each experience to notice what is left with no descriptions or words? (Hard to describe, I know, but please have a try!) Feel it.
ii) With each item, now ask: "Is any individual called Kelvin necessary for this experience or can it just happen on its own?" Let me know what comes up.
i) when I sense particular experience, the experience is continuous.
ii) The experience can just happen on its own.
B. Now, returning to the question of what "Life should feel like, once liberated", you write:-
I have muscle tension around my head and belly some time.
I think I will be freer to do things (not caring about people's view) and more ease to communicate with people.
And earlier you write:-
Kelvin is a label. History is T. No Kelvin. Only senses present.I can sense the body and environment which are present. The body is labelled as Kelvin.
So, now please take time to consider:-
i) Where have these expectations come from? eg a teacher, a book, (teachers can OFTEN leave us with the idea that they have achieved some superior experience, that we do not have yet... but is this true? what can be more ALIVE than THIS moment?)
ii) Who or what is there to 'be freer'? Is Life not already free? Who or what is there that can be "not caring about people's view"? Who or what is there to communicate more easily with people? Can any individual really be found that can do these things? If so, please describe to me what is that individual.
iii) The 'muscle tension': it may come and it may go. But is this part of the aliveness of Life happening or not? Can it be left alone to do as it pleases? To whom or to what is all this happening?
i) expectations come from the past. I am actually more present and become accepting.
ii)iii) this one still I am finding out.

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ElPortal
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:47 pm

HI Kelvin

Thanks for those great responses.

I look forward to hearing from you on the last question parts ii) and iii), once you have had opportunity to reflect.
No need to try TOO hard on these. Just see what feels real and let me know.

All the best.

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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my journey
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Re: Hong Konger look for a guide

Postby my journey » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:08 pm

ii)body is changing and the mind is too。they are always free。body cant care about others. its the mind and it wants to protect the body or make it better. There is no individual. What's the mind? What is communicating?


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