Guide available

[Canfora]

Hi there and welcome to the LU Forum.

If you are ready to engage in a conversation with a guide, stop thinking about it and jump in. There is no better time than this.

You can read the LU disclaimer here: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

And there are a few guidelines to this process:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.

2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to

3. Responses require your utmost honesty

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


If all this is ok with you, tell me about yourself. How did you find LU and what kind of "path" brought you here?

Sandra

[MikeB]

Yes - please help!

Mike

[MikeB]

PS:

I've read the disclaimer and agree to follow the guidelines. And I'll post my personal information later today.

Mike

[MikeB]

Ilona said:

This is the simplest, most logical; most obvious truth - there is no such separate entity as self. . . .
. . . Thinking that we all have a special separate self that is in charge of our lives it's nothing else, but unquestioned assumption. It's a core belief, through which a human sees life. The feeling of separation persists in everyday life, making one always stressed, depressed or seeking for more. There is deep constant feeling that something is wrong, that there is something to find out, that life is not full, not abundant, stressful, unfulfilled.

I’ve spent a long time, off and on, practising Zen meditation. Latterly, my practice was to focus on the koan “Mu”. But all my efforts failed to solve it, and I became increasingly frustrated, to the point where I gave up. Although I didn’t give up seeking, and it was this seeking – and perhaps remembering that frustration – that led me to this similarly-titled forum.

No doubt you’ll ask what I expect to get from this enquiry. If so, I’d reply that I’d lose that “deep constant feeling”, though I’d rather not imagine what would replace it, in case wondering got in the way.

If you need to know more, please ask. I’m in the UK.

Mike

[Canfora]

Hi Mike, I'm happy to have you here. Ilona's words are beautiful, thank you for sharing them.

Although I didn’t give up seeking, and it was this seeking – and perhaps remembering that frustration – that led me to this similarly-titled forum.

Good, you can use this seeking energy for your advantage. My "job" here is to make sure you focus this energy into the "right" place, the looking for this separated self that is thought to exist.

Maybe the idea of looking for a self sounds strange and I will explain what this looking / seeing is, as best as I can - if after reading what I say below, you have any doubts about what looking / seeing is let me know, please!

I will use a cup as an example. If I ask you how do you know that a cup exists you can do two things:
- use thinking and tell me what you think is true about the object cup
- or look at / see a cup: pick a cup from your cupboard and use your senses to be sure that the cup is real and describe what the cup is

In both cases maybe your answer would be: a cup is a small open container, with a flat bottom and a handle.

But without having experienced a cup previously, how would you know that you're thinking about the cup is true?

What I'm going to ask you to do, from now on, is to answer my questions from your most immediate experience, what you see happening here and now, leaving aside what you think is happening here and now.

And - very important - don't believe anything I say here, look for yourself.

What I would like you to do is to take a few deep breaths and try to find the self that thinking says is real.
Look for it... what do you see?

Some questions that may help:

How would you describe the self?
Where is it located?
What proves that the self is as real as a cup?

Looking forward to you're answers!

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It's a good idea to save what you write before submitting your post, if this site shuts you down you can still ctrl+v the text.

[MikeB]

Still working on your questions

M

[Canfora]

Thank you for letting me know. By "working", do you mean "thinking about"? Are you trying to think the perfect answers - is that even possible? - or have you been comparing your thoughts with your experience and looking to the difference? What's going on? Please share!

[MikeB]

Thanks for being willing to help!

I will use a cup as an example. If I ask you how do you know that a cup exists you can do two things:
- use thinking and tell me what you think is true about the object cup
- or look at / see a cup: pick a cup from your cupboard and use your senses to be sure that the cup is real and describe what the cup is

In both cases maybe your answer would be: a cup is a small open container, with a flat bottom and a handle.

But without having experienced a cup previously, how would you know that you're thinking about the cup is true?

But without having experienced a cup previously, how could I identify one? I wouldn’t know what I was looking for.

And so, when you ask me to try to find the self, I don’t know what a self looks like from experience, either my own or second-hand. So no, I can’t find it.

M

[Canfora]

Thank you for having a look! Did you notice how simple seeing is? And how thinking about seeing seems to complicate this simplicity :) ?

But without having experienced a cup previously, how could I identify one? I wouldn’t know what I was looking for.

Yes.

I'm going to ask you some more questions below. If you feel I'm going too fast, please tell me. I have the tendency to get carried away.

And so, when you ask me to try to find the self, I don’t know what a self looks like from experience, either my own or second-hand. So no, I can’t find it.

- If you look and can't find a self, what is looking to the computer screen, typing words, thinking thoughts?
Have a look, can you name a doer of these things or find a subject?

- If you can't find a self, what is going on right now? Please describe what you see happening when you look at life (and I really mean describe what you can SEE happening right now - not what you think is happening!).

- And what causes the believe in the existence of a separate you? Talk always from your personal experience, please. Give me at least two examples of things that you can see happening that make the illusion seem real.

Take your time looking, Mike. The idea is to experience the answers to these questions, instead of trying to understand them and think them over.

[MikeB]

Looking . . .

[MikeB]

- If you look and can't find a self, what is looking to the computer screen, typing words, thinking thoughts?
Have a look, can you name a doer of these things or find a subject?

No.

- If you can't find a self, what is going on right now? Please describe what you see happening when you look at life (and I really mean describe what you can SEE happening right now - not what you think is happening!).

Hands and fingers move. Words appear on screen. Thoughts come and go.

“ . . . the believe in the existence of a separate you?”

I believed this since my earliest memories, so I can’t recall having an experience of it being caused or, if it was, what caused it.

“ . . . two examples of things that you can see happening that make the illusion [of a separate self] seem real.”

I (conscious awareness) don’t see happenings, such as hands and fingers moving, creating any such illusion.

M

[Canfora]

Hi Mike,

I (conscious awareness) don’t see happenings, such as hands and fingers moving, creating any such illusion.

What is this I that you mention here? Can you describe it please?
What is doing this looking?

[MikeB]

Getting tangled up in language.

M

[Canfora]

Getting tangled up in language.

Thank you for telling me what is going on, Mike. Getting tangled up in language is something that I can understand. Sometimes I also have a big difficulty to talk about these matters - fortunately here my role is just to ask questions! What I would like you to do - if you feel comfortable to do it - is to speak to me like I'm one of your friends. Don't bother with finding the right words - this isn't about the right words, in fact, if you use them I'll think that you're just repeating something you learned, without looking with curiosity to what is always available to be seen - what is going on right now in your experience.

I will try to help you a bit - you just have to look to find the answers. You will see that it's quite simple to answer these questions, when you get the hang of looking:

Is the body you?
Are thoughts you?
Are sensations you?
Is the very familiar sensation of being you, you?
Is a thought saying "I am Mike" a Mike?
Can an entity be found somewhere?

If one or more of these questions is difficult to answer just tell me what are your doubts, please.

[MikeB]

Thanks!

Looking . . .

M