Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
NotInsideNorOut
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:43 am

Hi, I'm Jayson and looking for a guide to help me identify and go past what I am hung up on.

Here are some of the things I have seen so far:
1. Intellectually, I see no self, experientially however, it still feels like things are happening to a separate me.
2. Occasionally I feel a veil dropped and there is just this happening, usually only lasts a short period of time before the I gets reconstructed.
3. Many times I see my body had completed actions with no thought to do so and no decision to do so: walking, grabbing a sip of water, moving body parts for which I can only explain afterwards that it was uncomfortable.
4. My thoughts can't be the controller of my actions and I see clearly I can't even begin to think I control my thoughts
5. Most of the time it still feels like there is a witness of all these happenings, although if I inspect it closely it just seems to be happening. As soon as I stop the witness concept comes back.
6. Sometimes I see everything as a happening and sometimes I see separate people and things out there to piss me off.

Expectations I am thinking this might give me:
1. Seeing through the illusion of self fully, as well as feelings of why is this happening to me. Not getting caught back up in the illusion of an I.
2. Knowing that bad experiences and emotions will still arise, but not getting sucked back into the dream of a self during this. I know I will still get angry, depressed, irritated, in pain, happy, sad, but to not have those states revert me right back into the dream which I feel I've caught a few glimpses of not being real.

Thanks in advance to all

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4753
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:04 am

Hi Jayson,

Thank you for your introduction. My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

You've already touched some of the expectations, but I'd like to ask you to go a bit deeper and explore these questions too.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
NotInsideNorOut
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:26 am

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for responding. I have already watched the videos on this site and read the FAQ/Readme first post and understand to follow those
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
That I will have a deep rooted knowledge or feeling that the self isn't real. I imagine this to lessen the personal blows that life deals to you.
Also that this knowledge will cultivate compassion for all other beings, knowing that they also don't know they don't have a self and that I am no different from them. I have had periods of this but it seems to flip on and off.
To be more available to those close to me instead of being sealed of inside myself worrying about the future or the past.

How will Life change?
In some ways, I imagine it won't at all. It'll be exactly the same but without the nagging sensation that I'm stuck in this bag of skin and that I won't end when the body ends. A deeper feeling of being with life as opposed to a subject of life.

How will you change?
Fear of the end of this physical body will not plague me anymore. I will be free of the constraints that I induce upon myself based on the idea that "time is running out" or I won't have made enough of the limited experience (in time) I have. While the idea that I am not just this body, thoughts or sensations resonates with me, at some point this body will end and with it will go all physical senses and probably thoughts. Part of me is really attached to these things and hates to see them go.

What will be different?
This is a hard one. I can't say I will really know what will be different. The thoughts that appear to me contrast between it being exactly the same with a lot less seriousness about it and some crazy mystical experience that completely changes my frame of reality. I feel more likely to happen is the first one rather than the latter. But really to have a deeper knowledge than my conceptual and intellectual framework that there was no self and I'm not in this alone.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4753
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:25 pm

Dear Jayson,

Thank you for your list about the expectations. This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
Seeing through the illusion of self fully, as well as feelings of why is this happening to me. Not getting caught back up in the illusion of an I.
Not being caught back up in the illusion is an unrealistic expectation. Because self-referencing thoughts and identification with the I-thought is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.
Knowing that bad experiences and emotions will still arise, but not getting sucked back into the dream of a self during this. I know I will still get angry, depressed, irritated, in pain, happy, sad, but to not have those states revert me right back into the dream which I feel I've caught a few glimpses of not being real.
When any emotion arises, it means that being lost in the story has already happened. There is no emotion without believing a story.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
That I will have a deep rooted knowledge or feeling that the self isn't real. I imagine this to lessen the personal blows that life deals to you.
Yes, seeing the self for what it is, just as an illusion becomes ‘factual’. However, it doesn’t mean that being lost in stories won’t happen again.
Also that this knowledge will cultivate compassion for all other beings, knowing that they also don't know they don't have a self and that I am no different from them.
Compassion (alongside with peace or happiness) is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
To be more available to those close to me instead of being sealed of inside myself worrying about the future or the past.
Yes, past and future can also be seen through (we can work on it later if you like), but it doesn’t mean that identification with past regrets or worrying about the future won’t happen again. Worrying is the result of X years of conditioning.
How will Life change?
In some ways, I imagine it won't at all. It'll be exactly the same but without the nagging sensation that I'm stuck in this bag of skin and that I won't end when the body ends. A deeper feeling of being with life as opposed to a subject of life.
Yes, life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.
Fear of the end of this physical body will not plague me anymore. I will be free of the constraints that I induce upon myself based on the idea that "time is running out" or I won't have made enough of the limited experience (in time) I have. While the idea that I am not just this body, thoughts or sensations resonates with me, at some point this body will end and with it will go all physical senses and probably thoughts. Part of me is really attached to these things and hates to see them go.
Yes, fear of death might lessen when it is seen that the body is not owned by anything. But fear of death is also a conditioned habit.
I can't say I will really know what will be different.
That’s good, not knowing is a very good place to be :)
The thoughts that appear to me contrast between it being exactly the same with a lot less seriousness about it and some crazy mystical experience that completely changes my frame of reality. I feel more likely to happen is the first one rather than the latter.
OK, whatever those glimpses were, they are over. Finished. They are only memories, only thoughts (stories) arising now. They can be hindrances of seeing what is, if you try to compare any current experiencing with those memories. So it’s better to let them go and be what they are, only thoughts (memories) arising in the present moment.

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
NotInsideNorOut
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:59 am

Not being caught back up in the illusion is an unrealistic expectation. Because self-referencing thoughts and identification with the I-thought is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.
This makes sense to me completely. I don't expect the self referencing thoughts to go away instantly. More that I would have a strong knowledge of no me for them to stick to as you say.
Also that this knowledge will cultivate compassion for all other beings, knowing that they also don't know they don't have a self and that I am no different from them.
Compassion (alongside with peace or happiness) is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I guess I always felt like this stage was the first towards to the end I am seeking beyond this. If no one actually has their own self but still thinks they do, then they are not liberated and still suffer from this. I imagined compassion at times would naturally arise out of seeing this.

I also feel like I've seen through the no-self before, but I get myself caught back up in it without realizing it. Not that it is a state to abide in, maybe just that I haven't experienced it on a level that blows out more conditioning than I expected. I also feel like I have only approached this intellectually and not experientially.
The thoughts that appear to me contrast between it being exactly the same with a lot less seriousness about it and some crazy mystical experience that completely changes my frame of reality. I feel more likely to happen is the first one rather than the latter.
OK, whatever those glimpses were, they are over. Finished. They are only memories, only thoughts (stories) arising now. They can be hindrances of seeing what is, if you try to compare any current experiencing with those memories. So it’s better to let them go and be what they are, only thoughts (memories) arising in the present moment.
Totally fair, understood.
What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.
Sounds good. Thanks for taking the time with me.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4753
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:24 am

Dear Jayson,
If no one actually has their own self but still thinks they do, then they are not liberated and still suffer from this.
OK, let’s be clear on this. Nobody can be liberated. You cannot be liberated, because there is no you that could be liberated. However, liberation can happen, but without an owner (you).
I imagined compassion at times would naturally arise out of seeing this.
It may happen, but not as a constant state. Compassion can come and go freely as any other states or emotions.
Thanks for taking the time with me.
You’re welcome :)
I also feel like I have only approached this intellectually and not experientially.
No worries, this is what we are going to work on :)

OK then, let’s start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?


From now on, I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
NotInsideNorOut
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:19 am

Hi Vivien!
The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
That is the standard view and the place I come from most of the time. But upon investigation I can't find any agent in body or mind that I could call me. The closest thing is more of the observer of the experience happening. But most of my time I spend with my mind in the default conditioning of I am my mind and body.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
I feel more in line with the awareness itself which as far as I can tell has no control and does not perform the senses. I've done experiments looking for the chooser and have found none. It all seems to be a story in my head. It feels more like the senses are just happening. I can't turn them off. If I had control I could stop them. If anything it feels more like they happen to me, but when I really inspect, it's just the senses, until the thoughts return and start telling me the story of my iife again.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.
Yeah definitely feel this and it feels like the happening of all the senses whether or not I exist will end at that point.
Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?
At a deep level I would have to say yes. I mean I can't see my own head which is supposedly the part that is looking so it's like biting your own teeth. I have no experiential evidence of such.

What does the word 'I' point to?
The experience happening for me. Maybe even the passive observer of that experience.

What makes this body ‘yours’?
Because it follows around the experience and there seems to be no other experience that doesn't include it.

What makes this body ‘you’?
The experience being had relies on deterministic senses that seem to follow sound logic. If I close m eyes I experience blackness, cover my ears and I hear less. The experience seems directly tied to these physical parts of the body. Even if my direct experience can't really prove the existence of these physical organs, they sure are consistent in their behavior and don't wobble a bit.
From now on, I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.
Will Do!

Thanks,
Jayson

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4753
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:20 am

Dear Jayson,
I mean I can't see my own head which is supposedly the part that is looking so it's like biting your own teeth. I have no experiential evidence of such.
Now we try to find the ‘owner’ or the ‘observer’ of the body or any experiencing.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.

But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns or observes the body or any experiencing. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?

Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

But upon investigation I can't find any agent in body or mind that I could call me. The closest thing is more of the observer of the experience happening.
How is it known that there is an observer that supposedly observes what is happening?
How is this observer experienced with which of the 5 senses?

But most of my time I spend with my mind in the default conditioning of I am my mind and body.
Of course. Liberation is not about not identifying with the I-thought anymore, but seeing that the 'I' is just a thought.
I feel more in line with the awareness itself which as far as I can tell has no control and does not perform the senses.
How is it known that there is awareness?
With witch of the 5 senses awareness experienced?

I've done experiments looking for the chooser and have found none. It all seems to be a story in my head.
How is this known that the story is in the head?
Do thoughts appear IN or TO something, or is there simply thoughts appearing?

If anything it feels more like they happen to me, but when I really inspect, it's just the senses, until the thoughts return and start telling me the story of my life again.
What is this ‘thing’ that thoughts could supposedly talk to?
The experience happening for me. Maybe even the passive observer of that experience.
LOOK closely.
Is there REALLY a passive observer of experiencing, or the observer is just an assumption - a content of an arising thought - and there is only experiencing without anything doing or observing it?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
NotInsideNorOut
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:49 am

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.
Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?

Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
No I can only find the seeing, everywhere I look in places where I would consider myself to be (the presumed seer) I can't find it. There is nothing in my direct experience that I can point to as a seer. It's more just like seeing of the words on the screen is happening.
But upon investigation I can't find any agent in body or mind that I could call me. The closest thing is more of the observer of the experience happening.
How is it known that there is an observer that supposedly observes what is happening?
How is this observer experienced with which of the 5 senses?
It's only a logical assumption that there must be an observer for this to be happening at all. Looking closely though, a separate observer can't be experienced in any of the senses. There are just the senses happening. I guess I always assume that if there was nothing observing then how could this be happening because I'm sure something is happening and that part is undeniable. The observer concept is just a thought though. The senses are definitely there, but observer I have yet to find.
I feel more in line with the awareness itself which as far as I can tell has no control and does not perform the senses.
How is it known that there is awareness?
With witch of the 5 senses awareness experienced?
From my direct experience even awareness can't be found even to any of the senses. Similar to the observer, my thoughts always assume that there had to be something aware of my direct experience in order for it to be happening now, but honestly that's just another thought and isn't backed up by my direct experience.
I've done experiments looking for the chooser and have found none. It all seems to be a story in my head.
How is this known that the story is in the head?
Do thoughts appear IN or TO something, or is there simply thoughts appearing?
Oh thoughts definitely just appear, like my senses. In my searches, I used to feel my thoughts appeared in my head, but I've experienced so much to the contrary that I don't believe that anymore. They could appear in anywhere, the spot in my head was just a convention that I've dropped. I always assume the thoughts appeared to some observer but again I can't find that observer of my thoughts either. I'd have to say thoughts just appear.
If anything it feels more like they happen to me, but when I really inspect, it's just the senses, until the thoughts return and start telling me the story of my life again.
What is this ‘thing’ that thoughts could supposedly talk to?
Haha! There's the ticket. I guess it always felt when thoughts would keep coming and being self-referential that I had recreated the illusion of I and believed in it again. But it's just not there. The thoughts are just appearing and are only talking to something if you assume the thing is there. It is clearly not in the case of thoughts.
The experience happening for me. Maybe even the passive observer of that experience.
LOOK closely.
Is there REALLY a passive observer of experiencing, or the observer is just an assumption - a content of an arising thought - and there is only experiencing without anything doing or observing it?
The observer is certainly just an assumption.

So if there is just this experience, then that is probably what I really am. But then when the physical body perishes, the organs providing input to the senses, the experience would stop. This is paradoxical to me since I see there is separate I from the experience. So when it does perish, what is the experience then. Is it even dependent on the body at all? Have I missed the point?

Thank you again, this is helpful to me :)

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4753
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:12 am

Dear Jayson,

When you reply to the questions, please use the quote function separately for each questions (so as many quote as the number of answers), because in this format is hard for me to distinguish what was written by my, and what by you.
They could appear in anywhere, the spot in my head was just a convention that I've dropped. I always assume the thoughts appeared to some observer but again I can't find that observer of my thoughts either. I'd have to say thoughts just appear.
Yes, thoughts just appear and not TO or IN anything. They just appear. Period.
Haha! There's the ticket. I guess it always felt when thoughts would keep coming and being self-referential that I had recreated the illusion of I and believed in it again. But it's just not there. The thoughts are just appearing and are only talking to something if you assume the thing is there. It is clearly not in the case of thoughts.
Yes, exactly :)
So if there is just this experience, then that is probably what I really am.
OK, this is a trick. You see, here is the hidden identification with the experience. So I’m no longer this body, this personality, not eve awareness, but from now on, ‘I am this experience’. The original belief in ‘me’ is now replaced with the new version of it ‘I’m experience’. Therefore, the belief in ‘me’ is kept ‘alive’, only the object changed, but ‘me’ the subject is totally intact.

The words ‘awareness’, ‘observer’ or ‘experience’ can be very tricky, because they can be used for the hidden desire to have a new identification. The belief that ‘I am a separate entity’ can be replaced (or rather layered over) with a new belief “I this experience”.

What if there was no identification whatsoever?
But then when the physical body perishes, the organs providing input to the senses, the experience would stop. This is paradoxical to me since I see there is separate I from the experience. So when it does perish, what is the experience then. Is it even dependent on the body at all?
This is just a thought story believed and not seen only as the contents of arising thoughts.
(We will investigate the body a bit later.)

Thoughts or mental labels have no one-to-one correspondence with reality. An arising thought is ‘real’ only as an arising thought, but NEVER its content (what it’s about).
Can you see this?

Here is a little exercise. With eyes closed, put one of the hands onto the table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?

When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?

Thank you again, this is helpful to me :)
You’re welcome :)

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
NotInsideNorOut
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:56 am

Hi Vivien,

Just wanted to let you know I was visiting family for Thanksgiving and will be responding either later tonight or tomorrow. I know the one post per day rule but holidays are a bit hard. I'll respond soon and use quoting better. Thanks!

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4753
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:40 pm

Dear Jayson,

Thank you for letting me know. Take your time.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
NotInsideNorOut
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:57 pm

What if there was no identification whatsoever?
This stumped me for awhile. I see no reason why there has to be identification at all. Yet I kept coming back to well if there is nothing to identify with then, who is doing or watching it which brings me right back to the unfound self or observer. The subject and object could just be the same action and thoughts are breaking them into 2 "things". This certainly runs my mind in loops chasing it's own tail.
Thoughts or mental labels have no one-to-one correspondence with reality. An arising thought is ‘real’ only as an arising thought, but NEVER its content (what it’s about).
Can you see this?
Yes, the thoughts are pretty self referential in that way, as is all language and concepts.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
Nope, it doesn't even really have a location either.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?
Not that I can see.
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?
The mental images and thoughts are creating "hand" and "table", without them there is just sensation.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4753
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:37 pm

Dear Jayson,
I see no reason why there has to be identification at all. Yet I kept coming back to well if there is nothing to identify with then, who is doing or watching it which brings me right back to the unfound self or observer. The subject and object could just be the same action and thoughts are breaking them into 2 "things". This certainly runs my mind in loops chasing it's own tail.
Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject at all times. Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about ‘me’ indicate an entity, or a ‘driver’ of any kind in ‘reality’? Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces that if there is an action then there must be a doer or a driver or an observer? Go to the actual experience and check it.
Vivien: Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
Jayson: Nope, it doesn't even really have a location either.
Yes. Thoughts my suggest that there is a hand (object) that is doing the touching of the table (subject), but actually neither subject nor object can be found, only the sensation or touching.
The mental images and thoughts are creating "hand" and "table", without them there is just sensation.
Yes, exactly.
So let’s go a step further and investigate on the body.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from the senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
NotInsideNorOut
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:28 pm

Re: Partially there maybe? Looking for a guide

Postby NotInsideNorOut » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:47 am

Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject at all times. Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about ‘me’ indicate an entity, or a ‘driver’ of any kind in ‘reality’? Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces that if there is an action then there must be a doer or a driver or an observer?
Whenever I look, I see no driver or agent driving reality. It seems that certain languages don't have the implication of a doer like English does which intrigues me. English certainly produces the implication of a doer.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
None of the direct senses can give any information about this, only does vision even begin to form any concept like this into being. And even then vision itself doesn't give that, it's thoughts and concepts that imply that.
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Nope, not without mental images or thoughts.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No, again this boundary is imaginary. The only difference is that direct experience for me doesn't feel anything outside my body, but I guess I can't even directly sense this boundary.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
If I rely solely on direct experience without vision then, no.
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No, not until concepts bring the shape and form along with it.
Is there an inside or outside?
Well there are things I do experience and things I don't. I have to assume those are outside, unless I am to disregard everyone else's experience as non-existent.
What is the body in the actual experience?
Nothing I can prove, but it feels that the senses are in direct correlation with each other.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests