Guide available

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Canfora
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Guide available

Postby Canfora » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:03 pm

Hi there and welcome to the LU Forum.

If you are ready to engage in a conversation with a guide, stop thinking about it and jump in. There is no better time than this.

Don't forget to read the LU disclaimer here: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

And there are a few guidelines to this process:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.

2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to

3. Responses require your utmost honesty

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


If all this is ok with you, tell me about yourself. How did you find LU and what kind of "path" brought you here?

Sandra

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haleoherren
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Re: Guide available

Postby haleoherren » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:07 pm

Sandra,

I have posted here before about a year or two ago and now I am looking for closure or confirmation. I started by reading all the books, watching videos, etc and going through cycles of intense curiosity and complete apathy but recently I started becoming interested again. Anyways not important. I am not sure exactly what may have tipped me over the edge or if I even did tip because it was all so subtle. The biggest roadblock was not fully understanding time or the lack there of. I guess before, I thought I experienced time and the present moment in fragments of the past, present, and future. And I thought that the present was wedged in-between the future and past. I don't know what happened but now I only see it as the present. The future and the past are so unreal its unbelievable. The present feels so whole now.

Also the no-self thing too is pretty apparent. I think before I kept trying to be present and "be" aware and I (thought) objectified awareness/being into a sensation. I thought I was that sensation but then I realized that sensation was just another sensation with no sensor. This part was what I struggled with the most, trying to figure out what non-duality meant or was. But with no sensor then there is no split in perception. Experience is all there is.

Hale
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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haleoherren
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Re: Guide available

Postby haleoherren » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:08 pm

Also just giving up trying so hard helped a lot too.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:35 pm

Hale,

Thank you for answering! You sound very clear.
now I am looking for closure or confirmation
Can you put a finger in what makes you look for this? Is there something I can say that can make you doubt your seeing that there isn't a separate self? Can you believe in the illusion again, after seeing how it works?
This part was what I struggled with the most, trying to figure out what non-duality meant or was.
Yes, trying to figure things out is the struggle in a way. Do you still feel a need to seek for answers?


I am also going to ask you to answer the questions below. They will let us know if there is still the need to look at something. Take your time with them, no need to rush:

Have you been able to find, a ‘you’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a you that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a you that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a you who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘you’?

Is there a you ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘you’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?


I'm looking forward for your answers!
Sandra

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haleoherren
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Re: Guide available

Postby haleoherren » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:01 am

Hale,

Thank you for answering! You sound very clear.
now I am looking for closure or confirmation
Can you put a finger in what makes you look for this? Is there something I can say that can make you doubt your seeing that there isn't a separate self? Can you believe in the illusion again, after seeing how it works?

Thoughts are interested. Maybe if I tried really really hard haha. But no.
This part was what I struggled with the most, trying to figure out what non-duality meant or was.
Yes, trying to figure things out is the struggle in a way. Do you still feel a need to seek for answers?

No not really, thoughts are curious.

I am also going to ask you to answer the questions below. They will let us know if there is still the need to look at something. Take your time with them, no need to rush:

Have you been able to find, a ‘you’ that is the ‘experiencer’?


No giving up looking was half the battle and realizing that everything is only the thoughts, feelings, perceptions, etc.

Or a you that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Thoughts say "of course there is" but the way it is seen there is no doer, no one in control.

Or a you that ‘makes’ decisions?

Same as above.

Or a you who ‘does the thinking’?

Thoughts pop up and pass in reaction to experience.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Yes just more sensations no different than any other sensation.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘you’?

Not sure what you are asking but there are only sensations which come and go.

Is there a you ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

In my previous post I mentioned that there was a sensation inside which I held on to and thought was inside but after seeing it as just another sensation, there was no longer an inside or outside. I spent a lot of time with those concepts and now they don't even make sense any more

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘you’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Its so simple its stupid. There are raw experiences (senses, emotions) and thoughts jump in and claim them. Checking those thoughts and direct experience show the contrary. So many books with so many concepts but there is only experience/no self. I guess my thoughts just need to reroute. But now it is a lot easier not battling "myself".


I'm looking forward for your answers!
Sandra
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:26 pm

Hi Hale,

Thank you for your answers!

You said:
Thoughts are interested.
thoughts are curious.
Is this true? Can a thought be interested or curious? What can you see a thought doing if you look at it?

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haleoherren
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Re: Guide available

Postby haleoherren » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:38 pm

No thoughts can't be curious but the thought of curiousity exists.

Thoughts don't do anything besides come an go.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:09 pm

How would you explain the illusion of the existence of a separate self to a person that never heard of it?

Without this belief, what remains, what lives?

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haleoherren
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Re: Guide available

Postby haleoherren » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:48 pm

From family, culture, and society you have been conditioned to believe that you are the owner of your body, mind and thoughts. You believe that you live in your body and are your body and that you stand outside of the world looking in. You believe that you are a person or an object. Thoughts create a future and a past and a belief is created that you are a person that exists. But this isn't true. All thoughts and the experiences just appear without ownership. The body is also an experience and does not stand as the experiencer. Same for thoughts. None of these appear to something and there is not a body that stands outside of the world. There is no other side to perceptions, nothing.

Everything still exists. There is still sensing, thinking and perceiving but they are impersonal. The "I"thought still exists but that doesn't make it true.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:14 pm

Like I said before, you sound very clear, Hale :)

Do you think that there are still some things we should address, regarding the non existence of a separate self?

Or - if you are 100% sure there is no self - do you feel ready to answer LU standard final questions? If you do, other guides will look at your answers and ask more questions, if needed.

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haleoherren
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Re: Guide available

Postby haleoherren » Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:22 pm

Bring on the final questions!
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:34 pm

Yay!

Here they are:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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haleoherren
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Re: Guide available

Postby haleoherren » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:15 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Nope and nope
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion probably starts when you are pretty young. People tell you that you are this body, you are those thoughts, you are in control of your life etc... and your thoughts and actions start assuming ownership over certain sensations. These are my sensation, this is my body, all that stuff over there is clearly not my body so its not me. I am here, everything else is over there. Wrongo Bongo! Everything is just a thought/sensation without ownership i.e. your body is just a bundle of sensations same as "different" sights and sounds, without anything personal.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
I guess its a relief that "I" don't have to try anymore. For a while I felt super light and thought that might be something but I realized that too was just another sensation with thought trying to attribute ownership. But ultimately this doesn't change much. There is a lot less going on though mentally.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Like I said before, it was the fact that I was attributing myself with extremely subtle sensations such as the "feeling of being aware" or just bodily sensations. But those too are just part of experience like everything else.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Before all of this I had read a lot on trying to figure this out and frankly I don't know. I have no idea how this works but mostly everything seems to be related to cause and effect. My dog right now just jumped on the counter, I said no and he sat down. I didn't have to think "well wow I should probably tell my dog to get off the counter" it just happens. Why is my dog jumping on the counter? Because the cat is up there. Why is the cat up there? Because I think its funny to see her nimbly walk around in small areas and plus she gets a break from my dog. Past experiences dictate how I respond to current situations. I hold my dog to an extremely high standard because he is kinda big and scary and can break things but extremely smart so he listens. My cat is small and cute and won't/can't do much harm. My actions align with these ideas/concepts in this specific long winded example. So conditions and conditioning dictate actions/reactions.
6) Anything to add?
Whats next?
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:32 pm

Thank you for your answers, Hale.

One of the guides has some questions regarding what you said in Q5:
So conditions and conditioning dictate actions/reactions.
What is conditioning? Does it exist?
Is it a personal and separate thing?
Can it characterize a self?

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haleoherren
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Re: Guide available

Postby haleoherren » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:08 pm

No it is just somthing that happens. It does not stand outside of experience. i was taking a stab at why things happen the way they do. Like I said I'm not sure but conditioning appears just as everything else, for example I wear a coat outside because it's cold, not sandals (Although today I did both haha). what I do know is though is that thoughts appear and sensations/senses appear, but thoughts and sensations/senses cannot do anything. And there is nothing else, so there is no doing.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta


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