An invitation to look...

[adriandc]

So are you wondering what its like to see? Post here and we can chat. :)

[Minties]

Hi Adriandc,

I'm called Michael. Can we chat here?

After a deep spiritual experience I've been an intense seeker of truth for about four years. Right now I have a burning desire to know the truth or more accurately perhaps to know illusion.

Would you assist if at all possible?

Michael

[adriandc]

Hi Michael, sure thing, just a few questions.
What was the experience? And has the experience affected your life? And if so in what way? The purpose of finding out about that is simply to nip in the bud so to speak.

Secondly, what are you expecting from the truth?

Thirdly, just as a warning, experiencing no self first hand, while life changing and irreversible , can for some be only a small opening to the truth, for others, a much bigger one.

I just thought that was worth mentioning.

[Minties]

What was the experience?

The experience was like knowing that every atom was connected to every other atom and that everything was perfect. There was absolutely no trace of fear of any type. I felt invincible and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could have and do anything I wanted and at the same time wanted absolutely nothing because I felt such great love for everything as it was. This lasted for 10 days.

And has the experience affected your life? And if so in what way?

The experience turned my life upside down. Nothing else was important but to know what was going on here (Earth). There was healing of myself and others around me. There was a very dark night of the soul. There has been different spiritual experiences. I look younger now than 5 years before. I've been experimenting with life. The curiosity is extremely strong yet at the same time the universe has coluded to prevent me from connecting with anyone who might have a similar interest until now. I have no doubt that whatever the outcome is of our conversation, it will be as it should be.

Are you going to take my spiritual experience away from me?:) Your question showed me that I am owning that experience. It surprised me. Took me off guard:) I have ,for about a year, suspected that there is no Michael to the point where even my parents seem to me to be imposters... yet, that spiritual experience certainly seemed to be mine.

Secondly, what are you expecting from the truth?

I have some ideas about truth but I don't think I have any strong expectations. My head has been forced to bow down to truth and be with it on its terms. If there is anything I'm expecting, it is perhaps an understanding of how to better to live with truth. A shortcut through all these constant lessons that keep presenting themselves.

The other thing would be that because I had a short glimpse of no-self recently it's really messing up day-to-day life and I guess I'd like to have the matter settled one way or the other.

[adriandc]

The experience was like knowing that every atom was connected to every other atom and that everything was perfect. There was absolutely no trace of fear of any type. I felt invincible and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could have and do anything I wanted and at the same time wanted absolutely nothing because I felt such great love for everything as it was. This lasted for 10 days.

cool, anyway , whats done is done, just thought it would be good to get it out if you get me, now its time to forget about it.

The experience turned my life upside down. Nothing else was important but to know what was going on here (Earth). There was healing of myself and others around me. There was a very dark night of the soul. There has been different spiritual experiences. I look younger now than 5 years before. I've been experimenting with life. The curiosity is extremely strong yet at the same time the universe has coluded to prevent me from connecting with anyone who might have a similar interest until now. I have no doubt that whatever the outcome is of our conversation, it will be as it should be.

You sound fairly ready to look at the fact there is no self! :) Thats good. Now all you gotta do is apply this readiness. As a matter of fact, it feels like you have done alot of the hard work, but just havent "finished it off" if you get me.

Are you going to take my spiritual experience away from me?:) Your question showed me that I am owning that experience. It surprised me. Took me off guard:) I have ,for about a year, suspected that there is no Michael to the point where even my parents seem to me to be imposters... yet, that spiritual experience certainly seemed to be mine.

Exactly there is no one to take away the experience from , and no one to have the experience, its just an experience.

The other thing would be that because I had a short glimpse of no-self recently it's really messing up day-to-day life and I guess I'd like to have the matter settled one way or the other.

Ok,
Well Ill start with a few basic experiments I think you should do.
The idea that there is no "Michael" seems right to you, but you havent seen it, ok , you had a glimpse, great, but lets forget it for now, and we'll concentrate on one thing and one thing only, the fact that there is no self.

I'll explain first how the illusion can be created and seem very real by using an analogy.

Look at a University. All it is a bunch of buildings ,with certain types of people, with certain things being thought there. The label University is put on this area, and the feel of it being a University becomes very real, almost like an entity in itself. But there is only a bunch of buildings there.
Now take your life, about the future, limbs, head, brain, blood, guts, memories, thoughts, feelings. All this stuff very much exists, and is very real, but when all this stuff references itself and uses language like "me", "myself", "I", overtime something that seems far more real appears, a feeling of ownership over all that, I feeling of control, a feeling of "I AM MICHAEL", "THIS IS ME". But truthfully, theres nothing more there than the brain, the blood , the guts, the thoughts, the memories, etc.

So , Ill start out by asking you to do something for me and we can go on from there,I need you to answer with as much burning honesty as possible, just tell me how it feels, and how true the answer is. As you move around, as you speak, as you do ANYTHING, as you THINK ,pay close attention to the control, Now , it will take a bit of effort for this, notice throughout your time, how much stuff goes on by itself , and carefully look ,as much as possible how often did you truly control it. And then come back and answer this, what decides each action?

[Minties]

Really, really nice analogy. Thank you.

Part of me feels frustrated with this exercise because it feels like a battle between two parts of me... but there's also an enjoyment of the frustration.

It's almost as if something is being put back in its place. There is a voice: "See! See! You just scratched your chin. "You" didn't do that. You never thought about doing it. You never planned it. Just BANG, chin scratched. Then the very familiar thought/feeling arises which is oblivious to the analysis saying "I just scratched my chin". Two different opinions from two different personalities stating opposite positions.

The analysis continues with things like: "Look! Your hands are rubbing together. You're swinging in the chair. You just looked at that girl. Bang. Bang. Bang." There was no plan or intention. All of these are definitely on cruise control. I'll be damned if I know exactly where my eyes are going to look next.

It makes me stop and just check that I truly understand what the word "control" means. The thought arises that I must be in control just that I forgot what the word control meant there for a minute. It's like there is a part of me that can see the cold hard evidence but is convinced that there must be some kind of mistake:) Ridiculous when you see it in writing.

Some things seem obvious. The breathing. The heart beating. I certainly don't feel in charge of them. I noticed today that I certainly had no idea how to walk (that is, exactly which muscle to move and when and where exactly I was putting my feet). That was all auto-pilot too. BUT, there is a strong sense that I make the decision of when to start walking and when to stop.

This gets to the heart of the matter for me. Right now I chose to hold my arm up in the air for a few seconds and then down again. I repeated this a few more times.... but there is doubt... The line of investigation just jumped to the matter of "is there an I?". There were: 1)thoughts about wanting to see if I was truly in control of whether or not I could direct my arm to stay in the air for a few seconds; followed by 2)a lifting of the arm. But I can see that there was an assumption made there of a "Michael" thinking about it and then the arm lifting (which on the face of it does seem to make a lot of sense)... but I'm starting to feel very real fear now that just the arm lifted. That perhaps nobody lifted it. Just life lifted it. I'm wanting to jump back to the security that "I" did it.

Could it truly be possible that there were just thoughts arising of me lifting my arm and then the arm lifting (without Michael)? Seems a bit… odd/inefficient…

Yes, it raises the question in my mind of did I truly make any decision in the first place to do any act of control at all. I decided to choose the number 1 or 2 and keep repeating the exercise until I see what it is that decides. I can sense that again it is just an assumption of Michael being involved. I can see that the decision just comes up in a thought. I get the sense that the true decider is not on my end of the thought (I just became aware of it) but it is the one that constructed the decision thought and sent it down the line for me to receive. But if that is true and there is an originator of the thought, then it seems beyond my ability to be aware of it.

There are a lot of implications if this is true which my mind is now hesitantly exploring but there is a sense of I’ve made a mistake.

Apologies for the length and disorganisation of the post. I’ll keep them shorter moving forward.

[adriandc]

Really, really nice analogy. Thank you.

Part of me feels frustrated with this exercise because it feels like a battle between two parts of me... but there's also an enjoyment of the frustration.

It's almost as if something is being put back in its place. There is a voice: "See! See! You just scratched your chin. "You" didn't do that. You never thought about doing it. You never planned it. Just BANG, chin scratched. Then the very familiar thought/feeling arises which is oblivious to the analysis saying "I just scratched my chin". Two different opinions from two different personalities stating opposite positions.

Ok, so the voice comes up "you just scratched your chin...but "you" didnt do, "you didnt plan it...."
What are you referring to when you are talking about this "you" that didnt scratch your chin?

The analysis continues with things like: "Look! Your hands are rubbing together. You're swinging in the chair. You just looked at that girl. Bang. Bang. Bang." There was no plan or intention. All of these are definitely on cruise control. I'll be damned if I know exactly where my eyes are going to look next.

Ok, so its pretty clear to you that there is nothing controlling it, so if you look closely , what is left that makes it feel like there is control?

Some things seem obvious. The breathing. The heart beating. I certainly don't feel in charge of them.

Ok we'll leave these aside for now, because they are completely involuntary bodily actions so it may cause confusion.

I noticed today that I certainly had no idea how to walk (that is, exactly which muscle to move and when and where exactly I was putting my feet).

So what else goes on in your life where there is a similar lack of feeling of control? How about thought? how about washing the dishes?

BUT, there is a strong sense that I make the decision of when to start walking and when to stop.

Ok, so where did that decision come from? What influenced it?

This gets to the heart of the matter for me. Right now I chose to hold my arm up in the air for a few seconds and then down again. I repeated this a few more times.... but there is doubt... The line of investigation just jumped to the matter of "is there an I?". There were: 1)thoughts about wanting to see if I was truly in control of whether or not I could direct my arm to stay in the air for a few seconds; followed by 2)a lifting of the arm. But I can see that there was an assumption made there of a "Michael" thinking about it and then the arm lifting (which on the face of it does seem to make a lot of sense)... but I'm starting to feel very real fear now that just the arm lifted. That perhaps nobody lifted it. Just life lifted it. I'm wanting to jump back to the security that "I" did it.

Embrace the fear, let it sink, its healthy, its a frightening acknowledgement yes, but also a true one.
So look harder at what your doing here.
1. the thought "lift arm up",
2. arm lifts up

What influenced the thought to lift the arm up? What decided that thought to occur?
Could you describe a little closer what connection that thought had with the actual lifting of the arm?
I realise that second question is difficult to answer, but if you can give it a go then itd be great, if you cant ? fine, but really try and examine it either way.

Could it truly be possible that there were just thoughts arising of me lifting my arm and then the arm lifting (without Michael)? Seems a bit… odd/inefficient…

Odd? Only odd because of a lifetime of assumptions,
inefficient???? OHHH YEAA, you better believe it!
When you do see this, and as time progresses afterwards, you will begin to notice how inefficient alot (not all) of thought actually is.

Yes, it raises the question in my mind of did I truly make any decision in the first place to do any act of control at all.

Not only should you do what you are doing here , i.e. asking "did I truly make the decision??" But also ask , what is the I that is being referred to ? What is it made of? Where does it exist?
If you can answer those great.

I decided to choose the number 1 or 2 and keep repeating the exercise until I see what it is that decides. I can sense that again it is just an assumption of Michael being involved. I can see that the decision just comes up in a thought. I get the sense that the true decider is not on my end of the thought (I just became aware of it) but it is the one that constructed the decision thought and sent it down the line for me to receive. But if that is true and there is an originator of the thought, then it seems beyond my ability to be aware of it.

Ah dont worry, its not beyond anyones ability,

There are a lot of implications if this is true which my mind is now hesitantly exploring but there is a sense of I’ve made a mistake.

Without delving too off topic (because once it does, the looking stops), I just thought Id quickly respond, if it is true, it has always been true, its not a case of it will BECOME true.
So instead of implications and other potential distractions, ask first, is it true?

Apologies for the length and disorganisation of the post. I’ll keep them shorter moving forward.

no problem!! :)

[adriandc]

apologies, I messed up the quoting, but you can read it anyway!

[Minties]

Ok, so the voice comes up "you just scratched your chin...but "you" didnt do, "you didnt plan it...."
What are you referring to when you are talking about this "you" that didnt scratch your chin?

The voice is referring to the same entity as when anyone else says ‘you’. i.e. if a co-worker said ‘Michael are you going out for coffee?’ Both that friend and the voice in my head are referring to the same entity. What exactly do I perceive that entity to be that my friend is referring to? Well… I can’t nail it down. At times it’s all about the physical boundary of the body. At times there is a trace of fear that whatever is currently being talked about might bring physical or emotional pain.

At other times, if I dig deeper, I see, especially if I’m being reprimanded or if it is the voice in my head talking to me, that it is taken as a reference to a deep internal image of Michael-essence sitting in a hazy center of centers. There is a feeling of preciousness and innocence and young-ness. There is a mental image of the face of the photo that my mother has on bedside table of me when I was 6 years-old surrounded by haze and an imagined feeling of purity and innocence that goes along with it. I do, at least at this moment, recognize it as made up. i.e. not real, but it sure does feel real in the “heat of battle” like if someone is unhappy with something I did.

I’m also starting to see that many times when someone says ‘you’ there is such a quick scramble of thoughts to turn the situation to my advantage. So much so that the fact of whether or not there is a “you” is just assumed to be.

Today my girlfriend felt that I did something wrong by her and she said “I know what you’re doing!!” It was (for me) a relatively strong experience. Thoughts, images and sensations arose. I’m feeling certain they are based on my past experiences, especially when I was a child. The thoughts are mistaking now for back then. It is matching the circumstances present when someone says “you” (to me) and matching it to the past and bringing up all those sensations experienced in the past again. I’m also getting a sense that those thoughts and sensations have that virtual Michael-essence embedded in them somehow. They are felt as very personal.

Hang on a sec. That “you” was literally beaten into “me” as a child. (I feel a little disoriented now and all the objects in the room seemed to just relax their shoulders a little)...

You know… my parents (lovely people by the way) never did sit “me” down and tell “me” precisely what they meant when they said “You should pick up your toys”. They never told me precisely what they meant when they said “you”. I guess they were referring to the magical moving bag of meat and bones.

Not only should you do what you are doing here , i.e. asking "did I truly make the decision??" But also ask , what is the I that is being referred to ? What is it made of? Where does it exist?

The I that is being referred to is body sensations. It’s like a warm summer wind that gently caresses every atom in the physical body and creates a background overall sensation orchestration hum of sensation like as if every instrument in an orchestra played the same note very, very quietly. (I’m not trying to be fancy with my writing here. It just feels like that.) I can see a few things don’t add up here. I will keep working on it. I guess if my arm was numb the sense of I wouldn’t be reduced. I will explore this more.

So look harder at what your doing here.
1. the thought "lift arm up",
2. arm lifts up

What influenced the thought to lift the arm up?

I really don’t know. The idea came again like a firework in the night sky. Nothing and then, BANG, thought “lift the arm up”. It seems influenced by the previous thoughts about the topic and a general awareness of all the circumstances in that moment and I’m guessing that it was influenced by past experiences (at least in the fact that it knew there was an arm that could be lifted).

What decided that thought to occur?

Wow. There is a sense of auto-pilot about that too. i.e. no one decided that thought. Just it was the next appropriate thought for the complete circumstances of that instant. That is just… beautiful. Joyful.

Could you describe a little closer what connection that thought had with the actual lifting of the arm?

There are thoughts about lifting the arm and sometimes it goes up and sometimes it doesn’t. There is an evaluation going on about the value of lifting the arm. In this case there is curiosity, a thirst to know, so the arm goes up. There is a feeling of justification. There was a voice “we haven’t lifted the arm for a while so let’s just check it out again” (Yes, it’s using the word ‘we’ now). That voice triggered the feeling of curiosity enough for the arm to be lifted by whatever magical force lifted it. It’s happening for me something like that.
I’m wondering if all my auto-pilot actions are driving the feelings experienced in the moment. I’m also wondering if all those feelings experienced in the moment are driven by thoughts that are just the next appropriate thought for the circumstance of that instant.

I can’t wait to get to your other questions. There is more work to be done on my side first.

[adriandc]

ok cool , sure Ill wait til you've answered the other ones and then get back to everything.

In the meantime, here is a tip that i find helpful.
When looking and asking these questions, dont think about the question, i.e. dont just say the question in your head and listen to yourself asking the question. No , go past that, make you sure are actually looking and asking as opposed to just saying it.
Its a little difficult to explain, but an analogy would be something simple like standing beside an unopened box and wondering whats in it. Saying in your head "Whats in that box I wonder", but not actually trying to get to the box. If you were actually trying to FIND OUT whats in the box you wouldnt even have to say those words in your head.

Now Im not saying your doing this by any means, Ive no idea, but I do know that thats the kind of thing I do :) So its just something to bare in mind when sitting there asking these questions, make sure your trying to discover the actual answer, not just sitting there asking the question.

[Minties]

Thanks for that. I am very grateful for all your patience and assistance. Everything is helping a lot.

Actually, I made a mistake in my last post. I meant to say that it seems that thoughts (that come out of nowhere and are appropriate to the circumstance) are driving feelings (almost as if there are feelings riding on the backs of some thoughts) and that those feelings are driving the bodily actions. But then, alternatively, you could also say that it seems that the body is also responding in an appropriate way to circumstances, and if one of those circumstances is a lot of attention and imagination in the mind about lifting the arm perhaps whatever magical force moves the body responds by lifting the arm.

The only real truth is that when I simply look at the connection between the thought “lift the arm up” and the arm lifting I see nothing. That is the truth. I see the thoughts coming and the arm maybe lifting. I will say that this could be an illusion. There is no direct evidence of a connection between the thought and action, only an infinite static-y, opaque-ishy, space-ishy, energy-ishy outwards-breath-like xyz.

Ok, so the voice comes up "you just scratched your chin...but "you" didnt do, "you didnt plan it...."
What are you referring to when you are talking about this "you" that didnt scratch your chin?

Today I realized that the voices that come up are mechanical-like in operation and not even really talking to me. Like there is a huge deserted desert with absolutely no people. No one there. And suddenly a voice says “you didn’t do that”. But like that voice came from an invisible tape recorder playing in the middle of the desert (or from absolutely nothing at all). And surrounded by great expanses of deserted land. But the really weird thing is that I am aware of it.

Ok, so its pretty clear to you that there is nothing controlling it, so if you look closely , what is left that makes it feel like there is control?

Like the University analogy it’s the very real seeming Michael-sense that arises from the blood, guts, brains, limbs, etc. The arm that lifts is on auto-pilot as the thoughts just came and the arm just lifted. It’s the Michael-sense overlay.

I think I’m getting a taste of it. It’s like all around is like a deserted desert again. No people are here but only physical bodies are here. The one labeled Michael is here and is warm and is alive and moving. But still nobody is here. There is still a strong sense of me however. Which is a little bit funny because if someone says “you” to me I feel like they’re trying to point to me by throwing a dart and the darts keep flying into the ceiling and floor.

Would you mind commenting a little on what I wrote so far? Please don’t feel obliged to respond to everything. It helps me to see my thoughts in writing. That’s all.

[adriandc]

The voice is referring to the same entity as when anyone else says ‘you’. i.e. if a co-worker said ‘Michael are you going out for coffee?’ Both that friend and the voice in my head are referring to the same entity. What exactly do I perceive that entity to be that my friend is referring to? Well… I can’t nail it down. At times it’s all about the physical boundary of the body. At times there is a trace of fear that whatever is currently being talked about might bring physical or emotional pain.

Do you honesly think of the physical body when someone says "hey Michael, you going out for a coffee?". Look deeper, is there anything being referrenced?

At other times, if I dig deeper, I see, especially if I’m being reprimanded or if it is the voice in my head talking to me, that it is taken as a reference to a deep internal image of Michael-essence sitting in a hazy center of centers. There is a feeling of preciousness and innocence and young-ness. There is a mental image of the face of the photo that my mother has on bedside table of me when I was 6 years-old surrounded by haze and an imagined feeling of purity and innocence that goes along with it. I do, at least at this moment, recognize it as made up. i.e. not real,

So whats actually being created when these mental images come up, this michael-essence, what is real about it?
Lets take your feeling of preciousness and innocence and youngness, where is the self that that is based on?

but it sure does feel real in the “heat of battle” like if someone is unhappy with something I did.

Is there a more real you created in the heat of battle?

Today my girlfriend felt that I did something wrong by her and she said “I know what you’re doing!!” It was (for me) a relatively strong experience. Thoughts, images and sensations arose. I’m feeling certain they are based on my past experiences, especially when I was a child. The thoughts are mistaking now for back then. It is matching the circumstances present when someone says “you” (to me) and matching it to the past and bringing up all those sensations experienced in the past again. I’m also getting a sense that those thoughts and sensations have that virtual Michael-essence embedded in them somehow. They are felt as very personal.

memories can be personal alright, and yes, a simple thought can really trigger an emotional event, but again, where is the you in between this whole process?

You know… my parents (lovely people by the way) never did sit “me” down and tell “me” precisely what they meant when they said “You should pick up your toys”. They never told me precisely what they meant when they said “you”. I guess they were referring to the magical moving bag of meat and bones.

exactly, but was something actually real created by this magical moving bag of meat and bones.

Not only should you do what you are doing here , i.e. asking "did I truly make the decision??" But also ask , what is the I that is being referred to ? What is it made of? Where does it exist?

The I that is being referred to is body sensations. It’s like a warm summer wind that gently caresses every atom in the physical body and creates a background overall sensation orchestration hum of sensation like as if every instrument in an orchestra played the same note very, very quietly. (I’m not trying to be fancy with my writing here. It just feels like that.) I can see a few things don’t add up here. I will keep working on it. I guess if my arm was numb the sense of I wouldn’t be reduced. I will explore this more.

When you think of yourself, i.e. the self image, is the stuff Ive bolded there really the truth?

What decided that thought to occur?

Wow. There is a sense of auto-pilot about that too. i.e. no one decided that thought. Just it was the next appropriate thought for the complete circumstances of that instant. That is just… beautiful. Joyful.

So what IS creating the thought, and where does the self come into it?

There are thoughts about lifting the arm and sometimes it goes up and sometimes it doesn’t. There is an evaluation going on about the value of lifting the arm. In this case there is curiosity, a thirst to know, so the arm goes up. There is a feeling of justification. There was a voice “we haven’t lifted the arm for a while so let’s just check it out again” (Yes, it’s using the word ‘we’ now). That voice triggered the feeling of curiosity enough for the arm to be lifted by whatever magical force lifted it. It’s happening for me something like that.

Ok, so you still make an assumption , only now the assumption is "we", what is the I, the We, actually pointing right to in the middle of this.

Actually, I made a mistake in my last post. I meant to say that it seems that thoughts (that come out of nowhere and are appropriate to the circumstance) are driving feelings (almost as if there are feelings riding on the backs of some thoughts) and that those feelings are driving the bodily actions. But then, alternatively, you could also say that it seems that the body is also responding in an appropriate way to circumstances, and if one of those circumstances is a lot of attention and imagination in the mind about lifting the arm perhaps whatever magical force moves the body responds by lifting the arm.

ok, im gonna ignore this ^^ because you decided to get to the truth of it instead of pondering and not looking...

The only real truth is that when I simply look at the connection between the thought “lift the arm up” and the arm lifting I see nothing. That is the truth. I see the thoughts coming and the arm maybe lifting. I will say that this could be an illusion. There is no direct evidence of a connection between the thought and action, only an infinite static-y, opaque-ishy, space-ishy, energy-ishy outwards-breath-like xyz.

Today I realized that the voices that come up are mechanical-like in operation and not even really talking to me. Like there is a huge deserted desert with absolutely no people. No one there. And suddenly a voice says “you didn’t do that”. But like that voice came from an invisible tape recorder playing in the middle of the desert (or from absolutely nothing at all). And surrounded by great expanses of deserted land. But the really weird thing is that I am aware of it.

Sure , theres nothing weird about being aware of thought, but its what the "you" refers to is the important bit.

I think I’m getting a taste of it. It’s like all around is like a deserted desert again. No people are here but only physical bodies are here. The one labeled Michael is here and is warm and is alive and moving. But still nobody is here. There is still a strong sense of me however. Which is a little bit funny because if someone says “you” to me I feel like they’re trying to point to me by throwing a dart and the darts keep flying into the ceiling and floor.

Look closely at the sense of you, and pinpoint where it begins, where does it end, what is it made up of?

Would you mind commenting a little on what I wrote so far? Please don’t feel obliged to respond to everything. It helps me to see my thoughts in writing. That’s all.

No probs :)

If ive missed anything, its not because I didnt read it, its just because I feel it may be losing focus of the one and only thing this place concentrates on, no self.

Another hint I found was to look around at various objects, your computer, you desk, your room. You watch and these and touch them, even smell them (maybe a fruit or something would be better for that lol), then turn the direction inwards, ok so you know theres a body there, but we also know that that this sense, this sense of you, is something different right? how can that be compared to the sense of one of the physical objects around you?
What is real about the sense of touching your computer, and what is real about the sense of you?

Im also aware, that some of the questions may seem frustrating and repeating themselves, but remember, I cant do anything magical or say anything correct that will MAKE you see it, its up to your own focus and your willingness to explore!!

[Minties]

Do you honesly think of the physical body when someone says "hey Michael, you going out for a coffee?". Look deeper, is there anything being referrenced?

I was wrong. I don’t think of the physical body. I reference a virtual personality. A virtual personality is hastily put together and these personalities are slightly different depending on who is being spoken with. When I’m speaking with someone at work senior to me, I references a virtual personality framework of the ideal professional. When I’m speaking with a co-worker it is different, at home it is different again. The I that I use in this sentence now references another virtual personality framework.

I say virtual because I recognize it is not real. I can squeeze the table-top and the chair. They are real. The virtual personalities cannot be squeezed. In fact I can imagine my brother, sponge-bob square pants and ideal-professional-Michael all sitting together on the sofa next to me. Fantasy, fantasy, fantasy.

So whats actually being created when these mental images come up, this michael-essence, what is real about it?

Nothing is being created except physical sensations. The body does jump into the role of it pretty quickly.

Lets take your feeling of preciousness and innocence and youngness, where is the self that that is based on?

It is no where. It is not real. I guess it is part of the ability to be aware of something that is not real.

memories can be personal alright, and yes, a simple thought can really trigger an emotional event, but again, where is the you in between this whole process?

I guess I could never have been. OK. I see I don’t exist except in fantasy land along with Cinderella but… (I want to say something but don’t know what).

But the body which is in real land does appear to respond according to fantasy land but I guess that is only when I believe fantasy land to be real land. Confusing…

but was something actually real created by this magical moving bag of meat and bones.

This question shocked me deeply. The collection of parts called the body created these virtual personalities and these personalities believe that everything around it is very important and should be abled to be controlled as if it was itself. And in the couple of hours while seeing it, it was wonderful but now all this makes me want to scream. “Me” has worked so hard trying to change everything to be right and has acted on all the advice received from the “I” voice that says “you” in the head and all for nought and “me” also gets the feeling that, even seeing this, it’s going to be duped again into believing the next piece of advice coming from “I”.

I can’t help but to think of the University analogy you started with. I can’t help but to think that my city just consists of buildings and people and the city name label is just fantasy land content, same with the country label, same with the Earth label. It just occurred to me that language lives in fantasy land too.

Is it such that thoughts have been given first-class king status when in truth they should be out in the fields working and leave the management of the kingdom alone?

So, I am a collection of (dysfunctional?) fantasy characters that arose from an alive body which really is a machine on auto-pilot obsessed with thoughts that are also on auto-pilot. The fantasy characters all believe that they are truly one Michael which is also a fantasy and if Michael saved 10 little girls from a burning building or was the one that burnt it down it is not good or bad, it just the way it was pre-written to be?

I just needed to see that in writing. I am deeply grateful for your assistance.

Michael wrote: The I that is being referred to is body sensations. It’s like a warm summer wind that gently caresses every atom in the physical body and creates a background overall sensation orchestration hum of sensation like as if every instrument in an orchestra played the same note very, very quietly. (I’m not trying to be fancy with my writing here. It just feels like that.) I can see a few things don’t add up here. I will keep working on it. I guess if my arm was numb the sense of I wouldn’t be reduced. I will explore this more.

Adriandc wrote: When you think of yourself, i.e. the self image, is the stuff Ive bolded there really the truth?

No, it isn't. That is how the body feels. When I think of myself I think of one of the Michael virtual personalities.

What decided that thought to occur?

Wow. There is a sense of auto-pilot about that too. i.e. no one decided that thought. Just it was the next appropriate thought for the complete circumstances of that instant. That is just… beautiful. Joyful.

So what IS creating the thought, and where does the self come into it?

I honestly don't know. I can ponder about it being related to the previous thoughts and the current circumstances but in all honesty the author of the thoughts is a mystery. I can see the self has values and the thoughts reflect that. Oh.... is it the virtual personality thinking?

Look closely at the sense of you, and pinpoint where it begins, where does it end, what is it made up of?

It has a sense of being constant which I haven't noticed before. Like a super-thin contact lens covering awareness. If an actor was playing a role I guess even when they're waiting for their lines they are still playing the part. I don't know where it begins and ends. It's an elusive little fellow.

[adriandc]

I was wrong. I don’t think of the physical body. I reference a virtual personality. A virtual personality is hastily put together and these personalities are slightly different depending on who is being spoken with. When I’m speaking with someone at work senior to me, I references a virtual personality framework of the ideal professional. When I’m speaking with a co-worker it is different, at home it is different again. The I that I use in this sentence now references another virtual personality framework.

I say virtual because I recognize it is not real. I can squeeze the table-top and the chair. They are real. The virtual personalities cannot be squeezed. In fact I can imagine my brother, sponge-bob square pants and ideal-professional-Michael all sitting together on the sofa next to me. Fantasy, fantasy, fantasy.

Exactly, keep your focus on this, making sure not replace your belief of self as something real with a virtual personality , as if it were real (even though Im fully aware you pointed its not, its important as a reminder).
What creates the virtual personality?

Nothing is being created except physical sensations. The body does jump into the role of it pretty quickly.

Exactly!!

memories can be personal alright, and yes, a simple thought can really trigger an emotional event, but again, where is the you in between this whole process?

I guess I could never have been. OK. I see I don’t exist except in fantasy land along with Cinderella but… (I want to say something but don’t know what).

But the body which is in real land does appear to respond according to fantasy land but I guess that is only when I believe fantasy land to be real land. Confusing…

Well, remember, a thought can create a real emotional response. The belief of you could do the same, however, once you push for this, and it clicks, it should be far more obvious that it IS only a thought thats doing it.

but was something actually real created by this magical moving bag of meat and bones.

This question shocked me deeply. The collection of parts called the body created these virtual personalities and these personalities believe that everything around it is very important and should be abled to be controlled as if it was itself. And in the couple of hours while seeing it, it was wonderful but now all this makes me want to scream. “Me” has worked so hard trying to change everything to be right and has acted on all the advice received from the “I” voice that says “you” in the head and all for nought and “me” also gets the feeling that, even seeing this, it’s going to be duped again into believing the next piece of advice coming from “I”.

The bit I bolded there is the reason why the rest of your paragraph is the way it, why the assumption that something that doesnt exist could beleive something?
Remember to see if there is anything there at all.
Imagine a crazy imagining a dragon, and then he believes the dragon is attacking him, or the dragon is doing something, or beleiving, or creating something, what is real about the dragon? how could an illusion possibly do something real?

I can’t help but to think of the University analogy you started with. I can’t help but to think that my city just consists of buildings and people and the city name label is just fantasy land content, same with the country label, same with the Earth label. It just occurred to me that language lives in fantasy land too.

yup!!

Is it such that thoughts have been given first-class king status when in truth they should be out in the fields working and leave the management of the kingdom alone?

Something like that, but its not something to worry about now, concentrate on the task at hand :)

So, I am a collection of (dysfunctional?) fantasy characters that arose from an alive body which really is a machine on auto-pilot obsessed with thoughts that are also on auto-pilot. The fantasy characters all believe that they are truly one Michael which is also a fantasy and if Michael saved 10 little girls from a burning building or was the one that burnt it down it is not good or bad, it just the way it was pre-written to be?

Still an assumption of an I that IS something, so before trying to explain what the I is like you've done here, dig deeper and see what it is you are referring to first.

No, it isn't. That is how the body feels. When I think of myself I think of one of the Michael virtual personalities.

The human thinking a thought, thats about it.

Remember though, a personality can be how your brain is wired, its what owns that is the bit you need to look at.

So what IS creating the thought, and where does the self come into it?

I honestly don't know. I can ponder about it being related to the previous thoughts and the current circumstances but in all honesty the author of the thoughts is a mystery. I can see the self has values and the thoughts reflect that. Oh.... is it the virtual personality thinking?

Look carefully at the bold bit, and see what is it you are referring to.

Look closely at the sense of you, and pinpoint where it begins, where does it end, what is it made up of?

It has a sense of being constant which I haven't noticed before. Like a super-thin contact lens covering awareness. If an actor was playing a role I guess even when they're waiting for their lines they are still playing the part. I don't know where it begins and ends. It's an elusive little fellow.

[/quote]
Well go back to your other senses. Lets take touching an object, what is real about the experience , in terms of senses , sight, etc.
Smelling an object, what is real about the sense, when does it start , when does it end? What causes the experience?
Then move onto this sense of you, only answer what you can truly 100% confidently say is true, how does this sense compare to the other senses Im talking about.

Remember as well, its not about this thread, its about the direct focus and effort thats applied outside the thread.

Another tip, look at other people, where is the self in them?

[Minties]

keep your focus on this, making sure not replace your belief of self as something real with a virtual personality , as if it were real

Yes, thank you.

What creates the virtual personality?

It is one of the most beautiful abilities of the human organism to be able to conceptualize. And a concept is an idea/thought that lives in fantasy land not real land). For example the human organism will see metal, glass, windshield wipers, headlights and four wheels and label it as a car. This can then have a real feel to it. Some car owners even give their cars names and treat it (and feel) as if it were a person. I remembered I once felt sorry for my car because I left it out in freezing weather one night. But in reality it is a collection of parts that are put together in order to move a human being. It was the human organism that was able to make the sum of the parts an imaginary entity, label it (as a car), imagine an identity for it (as Gertie my car) and experience feelings when the thoughts of the entity arise.

In a similar manner this ability is being utilized when the human organism becomes aware of itself. A character is created in fantasy land (in the mind) to represent the collection of human parts. This is then experienced by the body. The mind appears to be able to be easily tricked into believing that imagined content truly exists in reality. The body appears to respond to thoughts whether or not those thoughts point to reality land or something imagined in fantasy land.

Looking forward to answering those other questions. Just need to do more work on this side first.