looking for some help

[Mateo_x]

Hello,

I’m looking for some help. The no self idea is not new to me. Some time ago I had an experience, I realized that the self doesn’t exist. Thoughts were seen as some interesting things but nothing worth clinging to. As the days passed beliefs started to drop and there was a huge curiosity to experience everything including emotions such as extreme fear or anger. I saw that thoughts are the only cause of problems. There was a natural need for silence. I didn't HAVE TO sit down to meditate. Spontaneous needs for sitting still and watching the mind appeared during the day.

This perspective lasted for some days and then I started to get back to my old ways of living. I believe I truly tasted and saw the truth. I felt it in my bones, there was no doubt. I haven’t experienced anything similar since then. I don’t know how it’s possible to see something so clearly and then “not get it” again.

If anyone could help me out I would be grateful
Thanks!

[yuvi]

Hi Mateo_x,
This is Yuvi..
If you are interested in having me as your guide, please let me know. fyi, you may have to work with me in different time zones.
Cheers :)

[Mateo_x]

hey!

sure let's do this.

[yuvi]

Hi, Can I call you Mat?

Before we proceed, there are few guidelines to guide this dialogue, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. Please read the disclaimer here http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660”
7. Our discussion thread is/will be available in public domain, so avoid personal information or using name
8. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page so you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Cheers :)

[Mateo_x]

Hi, Can I call you Mat?

Hey, sure!

1. You agree to post at least once a day
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. Please read the disclaimer here http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”
7. Our discussion thread is/will be available in public domain, so avoid personal information or using name
8. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page so you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

I agree to all above. Quote function learned, topic subscribed.

thanks!

[yuvi]

Ok, Mat.. so let's begin.

I believe I truly tasted and saw the truth. I felt it in my bones, there was no doubt. I haven’t experienced anything similar since then. I don’t know how it’s possible to see something so clearly and then “not get it” again

I understand that you have had an experience that is pushing you to find out more about it, or perhaps an desire to 'sustain' that experience you had so you can experience life in a different way. We will get to that later.

I have some start up questions to you so I understand where you are and how we can proceed. But before answering my questions, i'd like you to examine the questions deeply. Take time. Compose yourself for 5-10 minutes and take 3 deep breaths - observe inhalation from the point where air enters your nose, feel it all the way in your airway until it expands your abdomen. Then observe exhalation in the same fashion. This helps your mind to calm down and gain focus. Inquiries from there will have clarity.

Here are the questions:
1. What are your expectations for liberation?
2. How will this feel?
3. What part of your current life do you expect to change after this?

There is no deadline or ‘number of dialogues per seeing’ in this process. For some it happens immediately, and for some it takes time. Frustration may come, and it is good. Don’t falter during the process and let’s work together however long it takes.

If you can't respond within a day, please write 'I'm there' or 'Busy' just so for me to know you're there.

Cheers :)

[Mateo_x]

1. What are your expectations for liberation?

I believe that once liberated I’ll see the world in the same way that I experienced before. Only this time it will be permanent and will not pass.

2. How will this feel?

I will see that thoughts are just thoughts. I won’t take them seriously. I will be able to observe them but not attach any meaning to them. The thoughts will lose their power and appear less often, which will result in longer periods of silent mind and higher focus on experiencing present moment. There will be curiosity to experience everything. There will be clear knowing what I want out of life. There will be a knowing that thoughts are the only cause of suffering. Emotions such as fear, anger won’t be labeled as negative.
I experienced all of this by the way.

3. What part of your current life do you expect to change after this?

I believe that everything will change. My relationships, my attitude towards life (which is good anyway). I think that the work that I do will be of higher quality and that I will take more risks. Also I will be more easygoing, patient and understanding when dealing with people.

As I wrote above, all this also has been experienced.

[yuvi]

Hi Mat..

I believe that once liberated I’ll see the world in the same way that I experienced before.

Actually, your world with all the people, events and the life you live will continue as they were before. But your way of seeing all of these will change. Your experience of the world will change.

Only this time it will be permanent and will not pass

Here is something you should know: At some point in your life, you may have believed in Santa Claus (or any fictional character depending on your culture). Your belief in this character as a child would’ve been so strong that you would defend its existence no matter what. At some point you "realized" that it was just a fictional character. But, that "experience of realization" did not remain 27/7, right? When you see that there is no such thing called “self”, it is a realization. What is SEEN cannot be UNSEEN. This does not guarantee that you will never identify with illusory self again. When realized, your attitude towards life changes and your past conditioning drops gradually (sometimes takes years).

I believe that everything will change. My relationships, my attitude towards life (which is good anyway). I think that the work that I do will be of higher quality and that I will take more risks. Also I will be more easygoing, patient and understanding when dealing with people.

fair enough

I will be able to observe them but not attach any meaning to them. There will be a knowing that thoughts are the only cause of suffering.

WHO wants to observe thoughts and know that it is the cause of suffering?
If I say that the “entity” that expects to observe thoughts is also a thought, what happens?

[Mateo_x]

Here is something you should know: At some point in your life, you may have believed in Santa Claus (or any fictional character depending on your culture). Your belief in this character as a child would’ve been so strong that you would defend its existence no matter what. At some point you "realized" that it was just a fictional character. But, that "experience of realization" did not remain 27/7, right? When you see that there is no such thing called “self”, it is a realization. What is SEEN cannot be UNSEEN.

I have a problem with this. You say that what is seen cannot be unseen. I saw that there is no such thing called self. I saw it, it made complete sense. Now it doesn’t. I’m not seeing now what I saw earlier.

WHO wants to observe thoughts and know that it is the cause of suffering?

I would like to answer “I DO!!!” but that’s not right. When I’m searching for an answer it feels like I’m looking at nothing. It’s like I know where the answer is, so I look there and there is nothing.

If I say that the “entity” that expects to observe thoughts is also a thought, what happens?

It doesn’t feel right. It feels like it’s something more than a thought. Normal thoughts come and go throughout the day and this is something more stable. Something that doesn’t come and go, something that is there, all the time.

[yuvi]

I have a problem with this. You say that what is seen cannot be unseen. I saw that there is no such thing called self. I saw it, it made complete sense. Now it doesn’t. I’m not seeing now what I saw earlier.

Whatever that experience that was, it is over, it’s gone now. This experience was a state, and as any other states, it cannot last. So liberation is not about having this or any other state back.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a State. When you SEE it, the knowledge becomes factual.

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is only an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

I would like to answer “I DO!!!” but that’s not right. When I’m searching for an answer it feels like I’m looking at nothing. It’s like I know where the answer is, so I look there and there is nothing.

"It's like I know the answer is" - this is nothing more than the content of a thought that is believed. i.e. thinking without knowing you are thinking. But when LOOKing happens, this assumption collapses. When you look, there can be mental images or voices that gives you directions to look, how to look, inspires to look. All these are thoughts. LOOK closely at your direct experience

It doesn’t feel right. It feels like it’s something more than a thought. Normal thoughts come and go throughout the day and this is something more stable. Something that doesn’t come and go, something that is there, all the time.

Oh yes. It SEEMS that there is something, because the I-thought is attached (welded together) to various bodily sensations. But when this not seen, the ILLUSION of something that doesn't come and go arises.

But is there REALLY a 'thing' that doesn't come and go?
Or only thoughts suggest this?

Don't think, but LOOK. Try to find that 'thing' that supposedly always there. But don't be surprised if you cannot find anything just a bunch of sensations and arising thoughts.

[Mateo_x]

Whatever that experience that was, it is over, it’s gone now. This experience was a state, and as any other states, it cannot last. So liberation is not about having this or any other state back.

I wouldn’t say it was a state. It felt like something “behind” states. Different states were observed from this point of knowing. I would call it nameless knowing/understanding instead of state, because it just was there. But it passed, so maybe you’re right and it was a state. I guess it doesn’t matter now, because what I’m doing now isn’t trying to get back where I was. So we can forget about ‘what it was like’ and move on.

But is there REALLY a 'thing' that doesn't come and go?
Or only thoughts suggest this?

Don't think, but LOOK. Try to find that 'thing' that supposedly always there. But don't be surprised if you cannot find anything just a bunch of sensations and arising thoughts.

I look and look and I can’t find anything. There are sensations but they change from moment to moment. I can’t find anything that’s stable. There’s some frustration because, I’ve been at this point many times. I look, I see nothing and then I keep looking even though I can’t find anything.

[yuvi]

Earlier you said,

“Something that doesn’t come and go, something that is there, all the time.”

When you looked closely, you say,

“There are sensations but they change from moment to moment. I can’t find anything that’s stable.”

From your examination, I believe you are looking for ‘self’ this way: Mat, from Point A, is looking for “self” behind/between his sensations, thoughts and perceptions.

Where is this Point A located?

Some say they feel that they are located inside head, or behind eyes. Where is MAT? Is he the body? Is he hiding behind thoughts and sensations that you are trying to catch hold of? If I ask you to precisely locate 'Mat' in beingness, where will that be?

There’s some frustration because, I’ve been at this point many times. I look, I see nothing and then I keep looking even though I can’t find anything

From where does this “looking” take place? Is it from inside your body?
What is looking for 'self' and feels frustrated because it finds nothing?

[Mateo_x]

Where is this Point A located?

Some say they feel that they are located inside head, or behind eyes. Where is MAT? Is he the body? Is he hiding behind thoughts and sensations that you are trying to catch hold of? If I ask you to precisely locate 'Mat' in beingness, where will that be?

So I’m looking for a place from which looking happens. It feels like the point from which looking happens is behind the eyes. But that’s not exactly true. It doesn’t matter if I’m looking for a place where looking starts, I can also look for a place where hearing happens. Right now I’m hearing some noises and I can’t say that they appear behind the eyes. They just appear but I can’t find where this happens.

From where does this “looking” take place? Is it from inside your body?

Actually, it feels more outside the body. Same with hearing.

What is looking for 'self' and feels frustrated because it finds nothing?

I want to stay with this question until tomorrow, because it feels like it's aiming at the core of this.

Thank you for taking the time!

[yuvi]

OK, take your time and look deep for an answer..

[Mateo_x]

What is looking for 'self' and feels frustrated because it finds nothing?

I don’t know what to answer here. It’s really frustrating. I’m looking and looking and I don’t know how to answer this question. There’s looking but I don’t know where it starts. It feels like I'm looking all the time in the same place like an idiot and can't see nothing. I've been stuck at this place for years.