Help me find out that no one is writing this

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prunejuice
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Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby prunejuice » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:37 pm

I am. and I am here. I can witness my physical body and I know that I am not the one moving. I can hear words coming out and have an awareness lingering deeper down that I am not the one speaking. I know somewhere inside that I am not the voice in my head.

and yet...

One thousand times daily I snap back into awareness (almost always with a physical snap or a pop, like the feeling of a knuckle cracking, right at the top of my spine) upon an inhalation and realize that I've been listening to my mind debate some point and I've been identified with one side or the other or something external, lost in something else. I observe my "self" setting goals, making plans, trying to gain something, get something, help something, help someone, manipulate some situation (generally with benign intent or for the mutual supposed benefit of my self and someone else). I know intellectually that it is all an illusion, but i want to experience clarity fully and deeply so that I can stop falling asleep and identifying with the dream. I want to stay awake, stay aware, stay present and yet sometimes the dream is so enticing, so comforting that it lulls me right away with it. I enjoy the taste of the food, I enjoy the feeling of bringing joy to someone, I enjoy beautiful scenery. My memories are pleasurable to think about. My guilt over supposed shortcomings is not debilitating, it keeps me wanting to be better. How do I awaken fully and realize that I am perfect already.

Am I ever really doing anything? Am I ever really making decisions? Do they just happen regardless of what I think I choose and then my awareness just catches up in real time and narrates the story? Is my body acting and then my mind reacting instantaneously to what it senses physically and telling me a story about how it was me that did it and chose it?

I want to know.

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codyjdennis
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby codyjdennis » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:25 pm

Hey prunejuice,

Thank you for your introduction! It's great to have you here LU. My name is Cody and I am more than happy to guide you!

Just a few technical things to get out of the way..

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html
6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you agree to the above and take me on as a guide we can get started with the questions below.
---------------

What do you expect will happen when you have seen through the illusion of Me?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Best
Cody :-)
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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prunejuice
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby prunejuice » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:24 am

Hi Cody,

Thanks for the response. I agree to the 6 points that you mentioned and I'd like to move forward with you as a guide.
What do you expect will happen when you have seen through the illusion of Me?
Sometimes, when I feel an awakened moment, When I see through the veil, or find that I have been asleep or however you want to phrase it, and I snap back to total clarity there is almost a euphoric, fleeting, blissfull feeling. I get the immediate sense that that is awakening, that that is what it feel like, and that it's that, forever. Immediately thereafter I hear the thought that that is still just a story, still part of an illusion, or a dream, and then I feel calm no matter what is happening outside (or inside my mind)... I have the awareness that it is all ok. So what do I expect to happen when I have seen through the illusion fully? I expect to not fall back into the illusion. To no longer believe that any of it is real, or ultimately even true. I enjoy watching the movie and knowing that it is a movie, but sometimes I get so wrapped up into the story that I forget that I am just watching it and not really IN it.
How will Life change?
I don't expect my life will change much. If anything, I hope that synchronicity will continue to increase as it has since I began searching in earnest. I expect the searching feeling will abate which I have to admit seems somewhat somber to me. I like the search, there is a sense of joy for me in digging deeper, which I know in some sense actually carries me further away from realization.
How will you change?
Externally, I don't expect my physical self will change. Now, I still feel like a presence listening to a voice. Sometimes I get carried away with what the voice is saying and believe that it is me talking. Or typing, or talking, or anything. I hope that I will be able to see clearly and fully and totally and maintain the awareness that it is happening and I am not it.
What will be different?
What I expect to be different is that instead of bobbing up and down in and out of awareness, sometimes identified, sometimes not, that awareness will be able to be maintained. Awareness that life is happening, that the play is continuing, that decisions are being made, that life is being lived, and I am there for it but not in it.

Looking forward to talking more with you Cody.

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codyjdennis
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby codyjdennis » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:54 am

Hey prunejuice,
I apologize for just responding. Had a busy day today.
----
Thanks for your response! Much of what you speak about in your answers are just experiences or states. What we are going to look at is if there is actually a separate self living life/experiencing etc. These kind of experiences/synchronicity may or may not continue after this is seen. There is no guarantee.

As a group we put together this list of common 'beliefs' that people have about what liberation is and should be. Since its impossible to say what 'this' is in any definitive terms, they are listed as what we've found this is not.

This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not a self improvement program.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, or getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, nor is it magical or mystical.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I

Likely you will find that it's actually nothing that you expect it will be.
________________


With that in mind..
What comes up when it's read that: there is no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been a "you", nor is there or ever will be a "you"?
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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prunejuice
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby prunejuice » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:40 pm

Hi Cody,
The first thing that arrises is a challenge. When I first read the question this morning there arose a sarcastic sounding voice that asserts it's existence and challenges proof to the contrary. Immediately, even concurrently to that, there was a sense, an awareness, that the sarcastic voice is hollow, incorrect, and does not accord with something else that I know, or sense. It seems as if that happens because the sarcastic voice is out of alignment with what I feel like I am supposed to know...because if there is no me in any way shape or form, that voice doesn't even exist, nor does the me that is interpreting the whole conflicted experience.

I was interrupted and didn't have a chance to respond immediately after reading your reply this morning. After several hours, I re-read your message. There is no longer a challenge that arrises, at least not as aggressively or cocky sounding as it did this morning. But still, there is a sense of presence that I am identified with, that is out of alignment with the statement refuting it's existence. There is the sense that if I feel this presence to be, how can it be stated that it is not. It may not exist in any physical, identifiable, way shape or form but it still is aware of itself and therefore must "be" and I am that.

You didn't ask, but I feel the impulse to tell you that you can call me Zak instead of prunejuice. I don't necessarily feel like I am this person and character named Zak who's personal life and story I have been looking at for decades, but I do still feel as if I am a something unique that exists within (or without) that is independent of other beings and existences.

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codyjdennis
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby codyjdennis » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:05 pm

Hey Zak :-),
There is the sense that if I feel this presence to be, how can it be stated that it is not. It may not exist in any physical, identifiable, way shape or form but it still is aware of itself and therefore must "be" and I am that.
Generally what you're saying is correct. However, what we are going to take a look at together is if there is an "I"/separate self that actually owns it.



Take a look at this question for today:
"What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?"

- Cody
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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prunejuice
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby prunejuice » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:28 pm

"I" points to the mere feeling or naked experience of separate existence which defaults to being intertwined or having ownership with the physical sense of presence because for as long as memory serves and for all practical wordly purposes they have been connected. By default I am giving the feeling of "I" a sense of ownership, or even a choice of whether to accept or reject ownership of being based on the needs of the moment. If I observe it, it is the observer trying to convince itself that it doesn't exist which becomes a feedback loop and says if I don't exist what is it that is actually thinking about the question of existence. There is still a sense of separateness that feels it is observing the whole process. Even if it is't observing itself there is a sense of separateness, a duality.

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codyjdennis
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby codyjdennis » Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:52 am

If I don't exist then what is it that is actually thinking about the question of existence.
You not existing is just a pointer. There is definitely something that exists here right now but it's not a "you"..and this is what we're going to look at together.

For today be with this question:
Is there actually an I here right now experiencing?

Is there an I hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, touching?

Do your best to answer from direct experience only & take your time. No rush.

-Cody
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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prunejuice
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby prunejuice » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:57 pm

If I stay with the question, and really observe what is happening, then no, there is no I experiencing. There is the experience, hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, touching is happening but there is no I that is doing anything, it seems present as an awareness of experience however. Something thinks that is has understanding of all of it (that's not me either?) and then when whatever it is that thinks it is a self keeps that in mind, there is calm. When it starts moving, doing, thinking, scheming, planning, dreaming, there is something that assumes it has control and acts as if it is present and that feels like "me" until awareness refreshes on the point that there is no I.

I can be aware of the fact that I am not whatever it is that exists right here and now, that experience is happening, seeing, hearing, tasting, etc., are just happening and that I am not doing anything, but by I feel caught by the experience itself, By the very nature of there being an experience it feels as if there must be an experiencer, even if passive and non-physical and that must be I, The experiencer or observer, and if I am not hyper-vigililant there is a feeling that I can step in and assume control. Zak feels like he can control his choices via his awareness and if I am that awareness there is an element of control and choice involved.

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codyjdennis
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby codyjdennis » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:33 pm

If I stay with the question, and really observe what is happening, then no, there is no I experiencing. There is the experience, hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, touching is happening but there is no I that is doing anything,
Awesome :)
it seems present as an awareness of experience
I can be aware
Can a word, I, be aware?
When it starts moving, doing, thinking, scheming, planning, dreaming,
I'm going to give you two exercises to do. Take your time with them.

1) "get up… walk slowly…
is there a controller that controls walking?
or
is there just walking?"

2) “Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea,
blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where
you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.”
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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prunejuice
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby prunejuice » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:12 am

Just like the previous question...There is walking...There is no controller. The illusion of control that is assumed to be real if attention isn't brought to it fully; it seems as if there is someone typing, thinking, talking, walking, etc..

This has been experienced when walking, talking, driving, riding a bide... innumerable places. When observed, I have no idea how to move my muscles, how to articulate my joints, how to control my legs, how to walk. It seems as if something read your question, the thought or impulse to walk was there, it went someplace, and then my body started to walk. If left unobserved, there is an assumption of control that happens automatically. There seem to be activities where the desire to keep the illusion of control is stronger than others. For as long as memory serves, when Zak has thought through something, deemed a choice to be the wise and intelligent and logical and then is told that he can't do it by someone else, there is a very strong reaction, sometimes resulting in conflict. There is a strong feeling of identification with that anger or strong emotion. A feeling of pride and the more and more it is observed it seems as if existence itself is riding on this point, this sticking up for rights. For as long as I have been looking through the illusion, things have been falling away when seen as false. This has been a strong holdout and a place that is quickly defended by something.

When choosing between two options, again, I have experienced there being no choice-point. There are thoughts placing value on either option and then eventually an action occurs. Sometimes it coincides with that the thinking voice "decided" upon, other times not. Often, the thinking will choose something and then circumstance dictates that it must actually be the other and then that is ultimately what occurs.

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codyjdennis
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby codyjdennis » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:05 am

Just like the previous question...There is walking...There is no controller. This has been experienced when walking, talking, driving, riding a bide...
When choosing between two options, again, I have experienced there being no choice-point.
Awesome looking

There is a strong feeling of identification with that anger or strong emotion.
Before we move on, check to see if there is a self in the emotions when they arise (especially the strong ones) or if it is just the emotion itself.

Emotions by themselves are not an issue. The assumption is that somebody owns emotion. "It's my emotion." "I'm having a strong reaction". Look directly at the emotions and see if there is actually a self there.
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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prunejuice
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby prunejuice » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:18 am

All day there were many different emotional scenarios. There is no self there. There is the emotion, there is certainly a feeling happening. Today a situation occurred which brought up the same strong emotion that I described in an earlier post. Immediately the assumption was there, that there was an owner and that it was sticking up for it's rights When looked at, there was no one.

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codyjdennis
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby codyjdennis » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:43 am

Immediately the assumption was there, that there was an owner and that it was sticking up for it's rights When looked at, there was no one.
Awesome Zak :)

Let's move on.

--
One of the biggest assumptions is that the content of thought is real. What I mean by this is that the experience of thought is real but what it is about is not. Sometimes thoughts point to something tangible, like chair, however a thought about a chair is not a chair. If you wanted to sit down you would want the actual object not the idea of a chair.

Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea.

-----
Here are some exercises below so you can see this for yourself. Take your time.

1) If you were in a desert, close to die of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink the ‘real’ water?
Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you too options: (1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written onto it (2) and in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose? The label or the actual water?
Could you quench your thirst with the label?
If not, what this says about labels? Are they real?

2) Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.
What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?

Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?
The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

- Cody
All there is, is liberation. What arises in liberation is the idea that 'I' am not liberated.

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prunejuice
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Re: Help me find out that no one is writing this

Postby prunejuice » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:28 am

I see this point. Even all thoughts about it, are just concepts. They do arise in mind, but like any thought are just hollow. They are just labels.

In your first example, of course the actual water would be the choice. The labels are just labels. They are real in your example, because they are in your hand, but they are not the same as what they point at.

In the second example, the mental image was real, it was experienced but nothing more about it. It was a story much like any explanation experienced in mind. No matter how close it might be to the real thing or event that it purports to be, it is not the same thing.


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