Ready for Awakening!!!

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
yic17
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:58 am

Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby yic17 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:27 am

Hello. My name is Ivan and I am 29 years old. I've read some Eckhart Tolle and Buddhism materials back in college mostly for self improvement purposes - not trying to reach for any kind of awakening at the time. Some years later, my dog of 14 years died and I fell into depression for awhile. Not long after I discovered one of my kidneys failed and had a surgery to remove it - it was quite a painful experience. So I've had my share of suffering I guess .....

But it wasn't until just a few months back where I got into another depression due to work situations that I've just had enough with life. I seriously could not see myself continue living if things continue the way they were .... not that I cannot keep on surviving, but more that I didn't see a point in surviving if I am just going to continue suffering until the day I die. Around this time, a friend of mine who is interested in spirituality introduced me to Bentinho Massaro's stuff. I watched all of his videos on YouTube and it got me out of depression. I learned how life is empty of meanings and was able to start redefining life to the way I desire. But I still didn't feel liberated completely. It was more like a medicine I have to continue to take to feel good about life. So I continued to search and it led me to Ellie Roodzar, then Jed McKenna, and finally now here.

What I am looking for is liberation from suffering or liberation of the mind. I've read 1/3 of Gateless Gatecrashers so far and it sounds exactly what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, reading 1/3 of Gateless Gatecrashers and looking for the "self" by myself only gave me an intellectual understanding. I haven't experienced the shift/awakening. My mind is quite confused/stuck at this point. So I decided to come here in hopes to find a guide to help me awaken. I am ready for awakening!!! Please guide me!!!

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby Freddi » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:16 pm

Hi Ivan, Welcome to LU!

My name is Fred and I would be happy to guide you.

Just so that I know about any time differences, whereabouts do you live? I’m in France.

There are also a few standard rules before we start:

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/
for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

I look forward to working with you.

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
yic17
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:58 am

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby yic17 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:15 pm

Hi Fred. Thanks for accepting to guide me!

I live in Taiwan. But my sleep schedule is all over the places so it doesn't really matter where I live. However, I am very eager to get awakened as soon as possible so I will definitely post at least once per day and keep track of this thread whenever I am available.

And yes, I have just read all the links you posted and agree to the disclaimer. We may begin as soon as you're ready. =)

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby Freddi » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:43 pm

Hi Ivan

Thanks for your post, let’s get started!
What I am looking for is liberation from suffering or liberation of the mind
Could you give me a description of ‘suffering’, in your own words, as simply as you can?
Also, what is ‘liberation from the mind’?
I would like you to sit still and step out of your thought stream for a moment. Come back to your breathing. Notice all that is seen, heard, touched, sensed, smelled, in other words what is alive, in this moment.
Do you see a ‘mind’? What is it? Is it some object that can be experienced? Is it any more than the current thought?
What would liberation from the mind be like?

I would like us to be clear on one important aspect of our exploration here, Ivan. This investigation is NOT about improving life for someone, it is about seeing that there is no one there to improve, that there is just Life flowing freely. For this we look into our most intimate and immediate experience, away from thoughts and spiritual jargon. Just WHAT IS.
We have compiled a list of expectations which I would like you to read, and let me know with as much honesty as you can, what comes up as reaction to reading them. It can be disappointment, excitement, bodily sensations, etc. Just anything that comes up.
Here is the link: http://liberationunleashed.com/faq/
Then click on ‘Liberation Unleashed is not’.

Let me know what you see and find. Don’t aim to reply too quickly. Spend some time with the questions, meditate on them, and only reply from your first hand experience.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
yic17
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:58 am

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby yic17 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:05 am

Could you give me a description of ‘suffering’, in your own words, as simply as you can?
A painful experience/struggle in the mind. Fear and anxiety. Unable to achieve what I desire or be in my desired state mentally or physically. Negative and painful thoughts about myself.
Also, what is ‘liberation from the mind’?
I would like you to sit still and step out of your thought stream for a moment. Come back to your breathing. Notice all that is seen, heard, touched, sensed, smelled, in other words what is alive, in this moment. 
Do you see a ‘mind’? What is it? Is it some object that can be experienced? Is it any more than the current thought? 
What would liberation from the mind be like?
I suppose the mind is a belief inside the brain that calls itself as the controller of this body/being.

Liberation from the mind to me would be to have no fears, no limitations with the mind, no limiting beliefs/thoughts, not being emotionally affected by negative thoughts, free to express whatever I want etc.
We have compiled a list of expectations which I would like you to read, and let me know with as much honesty as you can, what comes up as reaction to reading them. It can be disappointment, excitement, bodily sensations, etc. Just anything that comes up. 
Here is the link: http://liberationunleashed.com/faq/ 
Then click on ‘Liberation Unleashed is not’. 

Let me know what you see and find. Don’t aim to reply too quickly. Spend some time with the questions, meditate on them, and only reply from your first hand experience.
After reading the list, I have to say I am sort of expecting these to be the results:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.


Escape from daily life not as in a method for me to gain peace. But I am thinking it will allow me to live through life freely without attachments and not being affected emotionally by anything. And I was thinking liberation from the mind will grant me eternal peace as well. Maybe not ALWAYS peaceful but feeling peace whenever I desire.

So those are sort of my expectations. But really, at this point any sort of liberation is better than now. There's a lot of struggle in the head and I just want to be free of them. I am not always having negative thoughts by the way. Actually they only come up occasionally these days. But in the back of my head somewhere there is a lack belief saying I am not enough and life is filled with too much struggle to live ….. And I want to be free of it.

Finally, I have to say I am really liking these questions.

Thanks Fred!

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby Freddi » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:22 pm

Hi Ivan,

1)
Fred: Notice all that is seen, heard, touched, sensed, smelled, in other words what is alive, in this moment. 
Do you see a ‘mind’? What is it? Is it some object that can be experienced?
Ivan: I suppose the mind is a belief inside the brain that calls itself as the controller of this body/being 
This is a perfect example of a thought based answer. This is not what we’re looking for here. Tell me what you SEE, not what you think. I know it is not easy at first, because years of conditioning may have replaced our first hand, raw experience with thought content.
Stop, come back to your senses and take one honest look. Do you see/hear/touch/feel/taste a ‘mind’? Is it only to be found in thought? Why is it assumed to be there? Question ALL assumptions, Ivan.

2)
And I was thinking liberation from the mind will grant me eternal peace as well. Maybe not ALWAYS peaceful but feeling peace whenever I desire.
I’m afraid that is not on offer here. Life will express itself in whatever way it does, there is no one to desire whatever its next expression will or should be.
Have you ever been able to stand aside from WHAT IS and steer it in one direction or another?

3)
So those are sort of my expectations. But really, at this point any sort of liberation is better than now.
Expectations are little trips into what is not happening. They reinforce the idea of a character who can improve, get a better life. The search for the end of suffering is ITSELF the suffering. Can these expectations be dropped, Ivan?
Would it be OK if Life continued just as it has always done, with highs and lows, left and right, hot and cold, etc?

4) I would like you to go out in nature, and sit quiet. Take a notebook with you. Notice all the vibrant happening of the moment. Write it all down. What is seen, heard, smelled, touched, all the sensations. Don’t discriminate or select. If a thought pops up, acknowledge it with the words ‘the thought that …’ then continue. Give me a ten minutes slice of Life, as observed in real time. Then pause and look again, can you see/hear/touch/smell a self, an ‘Ivan’, located behind the eyes and looking at the world? Or is the character Ivan an expression of this happening?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
yic17
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:58 am

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby yic17 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:56 am

Hi Fred.
1) This is a perfect example of a thought based answer. This is not what we’re looking for here. Tell me what you SEE, not what you think. I know it is not easy at first, because years of conditioning may have replaced our first hand, raw experience with thought content.
Stop, come back to your senses and take one honest look. Do you see/hear/touch/feel/taste a ‘mind’? Is it only to be found in thought? Why is it assumed to be there? Question ALL assumptions, Ivan.
No, I cannot see/hear/touch/feel/taste a mind. It is assumed to be the thinker of thoughts. So without the mind, I guess there is only the brain that thinks? In that case, I am simply a creation of the brain in order to refer to this person (body + brain)? This seems like the case right now.
2) I’m afraid that is not on offer here. Life will express itself in whatever way it does, there is no one to desire whatever its next expression will or should be. 
Have you ever been able to stand aside from WHAT IS and steer it in one direction or another?
 

Hmm, I am not understanding the question. Can you rephrase it in different words or explain with more details?
3) Expectations are little trips into what is not happening. They reinforce the idea of a character who can improve, get a better life. The search for the end of suffering is ITSELF the suffering. Can these expectations be dropped, Ivan? 
Would it be OK if Life continued just as it has always done, with highs and lows, left and right, hot and cold, etc?
 

I am hesitant in dropping the expectations since they are the states I wish to be in. But if you are asking me to drop them for now then yes okay.

Well, it will be OK for Life to continue just the way it has always been. But I don't like the way MY life is going. Sure, it will be OK as in I can accept it. But I don't like, prefer, enjoy, look forward to it. And I guess you will tell me this is the issue, that I see a separate self from Life. But I do …..
4) I would like you to go out in nature, and sit quiet. Take a notebook with you. Notice all the vibrant happening of the moment. Write it all down. What is seen, heard, smelled, touched, all the sensations. Don’t discriminate or select. If a thought pops up, acknowledge it with the words ‘the thought that …’ then continue. Give me a ten minutes slice of Life, as observed in real time. Then pause and look again, can you see/hear/touch/smell a self, an ‘Ivan’, located behind the eyes and looking at the world? Or is the character Ivan an expression of this happening?
 

Okay so I went to a park and did as instructed for 10 minutes. Here's my experience from it …..

- Wind passing through touching the body.
- Sound of wind blowing.
- A bug on my pants.
- Breathing.
- Sound of cars passing.
- Sweat on my neck.
- Finger wiping the sweat.
- A person walking pass in front of me.
- Me writing.
- Sensations of my thighs.
- Trees and leaves.
- Exhaling.
- Looking at the trees.
- Bug on my pants again.
- Fingers scratching my neck.
- Exhale.
- Looking at a person exercising.
- Eyes closing.
- Wind passing my skin.
- Birds chirping.
- Sound of a truck.
- Wind touching skin again.
- Thought: What would people think about what I'm doing.
- Sound of someone coughing from a distance.
- A bug flying around.
- Exhale.
- Checking the time on my phone.
- Staring at the bug on my pants.
- Notice a bug on the floor.
- Wind passing.
- Hand writing.
- Sound of cars.
- Exhale.
- Finger brushing face.
- Sound of leaves.
- Leaves fallen.
- Sunlight on the grass.
- Wind touching skin.
- Clearing my throat.
- Thought: It makes sense that even I (this brain & body) is part of everything too. Intellectual understanding.
- Check the time again.
- Exhale.
- Sound of leaves on the floor.
- Sound of people talking.

In conclusion, I understand intellectually that I am part of everything. However, I still identify myself as the brain or the creation of a brain. And the thought that even though I am aware of everything, but everything is only happening in my brain, through MY awareness. Anyway, that's what I have for now. I have a feeling I am going to be a difficult case ... my brain is quite stubborn ........

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby Freddi » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:13 am

Hi Ivan,

1)
So without the mind, I guess there is only the brain that thinks? In that case, I am simply a creation of the brain in order to refer to this person (body + brain)? This seems like the case right now.
Same as with the ‘mind’. Question that assumption, that received idea. Stop and take a good look. Do you see/hear/touch/feel a brain? Or is it something you have read or heard, but never experienced?

2)
Fred: Have you ever been able to stand aside from WHAT IS and steer it in one direction or another?
Ivan: Hmm, I am not understanding the question. Can you rephrase it in different words or explain with more details?
In your direct experience, can you find an Ivan, an ‘I’, that stands apart from Life and directs it, controls it? Look in what is real, here and now, not in the content of thought or memories, those are just stories. Give me what's true.

3)
Well, it will be OK for Life to continue just the way it has always been. But I don't like the way MY life is going.
Again, without looking into thoughts for the answer, observe the unfolding of Life in this moment, the only one we can test, notice what is seen, what is heard, what is touched. What is the difference between Life and ‘my life’? Take a good look and try to describe what makes the difference.

4)
And I guess you will tell me this is the issue, that I see a separate self from Life. But I do …..
Can you hunt down this self that is separate from Life, in your immediate, raw experience, and describe it to me? Does it have a shape, a size, a colour?

5)
However, I still identify myself as the brain or the creation of a brain.
Having looked above at the reality behind the label ’brain’, let’s look for the reality behind the label ‘I’. Look around you, all around the room. Notice objects, colours, shapes. With your finger, point to a table. Notice the label ‘table’, the sound, then notice the portion of reality it aims to describe. Now point to a chair. Notice the label, the word, the sound and the four-legged object that is a portion of reality pointed at.
Do the same with as many ‘objects’ in the room. Even pointing at your foot, your hand. See what expression of reality is pointed at by labels.
Finally, point to a self, to ‘I’. What do you see? What portion of reality is being pointed at?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
yic17
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:58 am

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby yic17 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:42 pm

1. Same as with the ‘mind’. Question that assumption, that received idea. Stop and take a good look. Do you see/hear/touch/feel a brain? Or is it something you have read or heard, but never experienced?
Okay, I think I am starting to see it … Or not, let me know what you think …

Basically, I want to see everything as they ARE instead of the meanings/definitions/contents of the words/thoughts.

So … the brain is only assumed to exist. All I can feel is a sensation in my head. The word "brain" is only a thought/label.
2. In your direct experience, can you find an Ivan, an ‘I’, that stands apart from Life and directs it, controls it? Look in what is real, here and now, not in the content of thought or memories, those are just stories. Give me what's true.
In my "direct experience", Ivan and I are only words/thoughts/labels that I use to refer to this body/mind character.

But I still think there is some sort of control, "something" is making conscious decisions. For example, "I" can consciously stop my brain to produce thoughts - at least for a while. Or "choose" to raise my head to look above. So it seems like there is "something" controlling still ……
3. Again, without looking into thoughts for the answer, observe the unfolding of Life in this moment, the only one we can test, notice what is seen, what is heard, what is touched. What is the difference between Life and ‘my life’? Take a good look and try to describe what makes the difference.
Hmm … I guess "Life" is basically everything. While "My Life" is only an idea that says "Life" is owned by this body/mind character.
4. Can you hunt down this self that is separate from Life, in your immediate, raw experience, and describe it to me? Does it have a shape, a size, a colour?
Nope. "Self" is only a word/thought/label that's all.
5. Having looked above at the reality behind the label ’brain’, let’s look for the reality behind the label ‘I’. Look around you, all around the room. Notice objects, colours, shapes. With your finger, point to a table. Notice the label ‘table’, the sound, then notice the portion of reality it aims to describe. Now point to a chair. Notice the label, the word, the sound and the four-legged object that is a portion of reality pointed at.

Do the same with as many ‘objects’ in the room. Even pointing at your foot, your hand. See what expression of reality is pointed at by labels. 
Finally, point to a self, to ‘I’. What do you see? What portion of reality is being pointed at?
As I said in my earlier answer, to me "I" points to this body/mind character OR that "something" that can make conscious control.

Not sure if I am making any progress ….. I can see "self", "I", and "Ivan" just as a word/thought/label. But when you ask me if there is a controller, there still seems to be ……

User avatar
yic17
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:58 am

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby yic17 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:00 pm

I am guessing you are going to ask me to see if this "controller" has any shape/form next. And the answer is no it is nowhere to be found. However, 2 thoughts come up …

1. Just because something cannot be felt, seen, touched etc - does it really mean it doesn't exist?

2. What is the "thing" that is doing the "looking", "searching" for this "controller"? I guess they are one and the same … which cannot be found through any senses … or they don't exist ...

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby Freddi » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:50 am

Hi Ivan, good work!

1)
Basically, I want to see everything as they ARE instead of the meanings/definitions/contents of the words/thoughts.
Correct, with one small adjustment; you already SEE things as they ARE. You have never experienced labels, definitions etc. These have been superimposed on your direct experience. In fact, ‘you’ have never experienced duality, ‘you’ only think you have …

2)
For example, "I" can consciously stop my brain to produce thoughts - at least for a while.
Wow that is impressive, but is it true or is that a thought? Can you actually check if ‘you’ can stop thoughts and report?

3)
Or "choose" to raise my head to look above. So it seems like there is "something" controlling still
OK staying in direct experience, what is true, alive, here and now, you see a thought that says ‘I am going to raise my head’. Can you SEE where this thought comes from? Do 'you' control where it comes from and when it comes?

4)
Hmm … I guess "Life" is basically everything. While "My Life" is only an idea that says "Life" is owned by this body/mind character.
Keep looking. Does what you call ‘this body mind character’ own anything? Does it have bits of Life belonging to him and other bits not? Or is that also, as you say, only an idea? Take a good, honest, look, and report on what you find.

5)
However, 2 thoughts come up …Just because something cannot be felt, seen, touched etc - does it really mean it doesn't exist?
Question these thoughts that come up. Always bring them back to this moment and see if they are supported by your actual experience. In this case, does something that cannot be felt, seen, touched, etc not exist?
Why assume it does exist when it can only be found in thought? The reliance on thought over experience is what we are investigating here.
If I asked you to cross a busy junction with lots of traffic in every direction, and asked you to cover your eyes and ears and trust your thoughts to get you safe to the other side, would you do it?

6)
What is the "thing" that is doing the "looking", "searching" for this "controller"? I guess they are one and the same … which cannot be found through any senses … or they don't exist ...
Why assume that the ‘looking’, the ‘searching for the controller’ are done by a thing’? Is that not another big piece of conditioning that tells us that an action needs a subject? What is the ‘thing’ that is raining in ‘it’s raining’?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
yic17
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:58 am

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby yic17 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:19 am

Hi Fred.
2) Wow that is impressive, but is it true or is that a thought? Can you actually check if ‘you’ can stop thoughts and report? 

3) OK staying in direct experience, what is true, alive, here and now, you see a thought that says ‘I am going to raise my head’. Can you SEE where this thought comes from? Do 'you' control where it comes from and when it comes?
 

Okay … I guess if you continue to track back where a thought comes from, you find that it doesn't come from something or somewhere …

And this "controller" that attempts to stop/suppress thoughts, when I try to search for it, I get some sensations in my head but I guess they're just sensations not a "controller". So you are saying this "controller" is just another thought, an illusion right? From your perspective, you are 100% certain that there is no one or nothing controlling? And can you tell me in detail how you experience life/how your life is now after liberation or the realization of no self - comparing to before?

I imagine you'll tell me that I am trying to understand it from the mind, but I think I can use some of those knowledge now to ease my mind/resistance …
4) Keep looking. Does what you call ‘this body mind character’ own anything? Does it have bits of Life belonging to him and other bits not? Or is that also, as you say, only an idea? Take a good, honest, look, and report on what you find.
I am pretty sure this body/mind character doesn't own anything. It is only a label. If anything, it is an idea created and owned by the brain. And as we discussed earlier, the brain is only there when I assume it … but yeah, this assumption is deeply rooted …
5) Question these thoughts that come up. Always bring them back to this moment and see if they are supported by your actual experience. In this case, does something that cannot be felt, seen, touched, etc not exist? 

Why assume it does exist when it can only be found in thought? The reliance on thought over experience is what we are investigating here.
 

Well, you know there are things such as electricity, audio wavelength, light that exist, can be detected by machines but not able to be detected by human senses. Due to that, I get thoughts about how if we ONLY rely on our senses, aren't we ignoring things that can exist? Please share with me your thoughts/perspective.
If I asked you to cross a busy junction with lots of traffic in every direction, and asked you to cover your eyes and ears and trust your thoughts to get you safe to the other side, would you do it?
 

No, I won't. It's interesting that you use this example. Because I was just thinking that if we only rely on our senses, it is like we are partially blind. But I guess if we rely too much on our thoughts, we are also partially blind …
6) Why assume that the ‘looking’, the ‘searching for the controller’ are done by a thing’? Is that not another big piece of conditioning that tells us that an action needs a subject? What is the ‘thing’ that is raining in ‘it’s raining’?
 

Right.

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby Freddi » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:02 pm

Hi Ivan, thanks for your post. I am enjoying your willingness to LOOK.
From your perspective, you are 100% certain that there is no one or nothing controlling?
NO. I am not saying that at all. I am saying that I don’t know. If it’s not experienced, why assume that it is there, or assume that it is not there? Claiming 100% certainty would be replacing one belief with another.
And can you tell me in detail how you experience life/how your life is now after liberation or the realization of no self - comparing to before?
At the start of this investigation, you agreed that I am not your teacher, all I do is point in the direction of direct experience to find out what’s true. My finger is pointing to the moon, don’t focus on the finger, follow it and look to where it’s pointing.
Anything I would tell you about the experience felt here would create a new layer of expectation about what it should feel like, look like, etc.
I imagine you'll tell me that I am trying to understand it from the mind, but I think I can use some of those knowledge now to ease my mind/resistance …
Our thinking will always aim to own the experience, make sense of it, grasp, get 100% certainty. Ultimately, it can’t. It will use concepts and labels that are a departure from the reality of experience, because in doing so it aims to divide a reality that is indivisible.
Well, you know there are things such as electricity, audio wavelength, light that exist, can be detected by machines but not able to be detected by human senses
No, I don’t know if things like electricity, wavelength etc do, in reality exist. I am told that they do, but I have not experienced them, so it’s hearsay, second-hand experience. To say ‘I know’ that they exist would be a jump, a belief, i.e. taking as fact something I have no way of checking out.
I was just thinking that if we only rely on our senses, it is like we are partially blind.
How so?
Is ‘thinking’ a verifiable, tangible sense in the same way as hearing, seeing, touching, smelling?
Can you come up with one thought that you can be 100% sure is true, when measured up to your experience, not believed in?

A little exercise to finish, just to keep looking into the actuality of experience.
After you have read these lines, close your eyes.
Can you feel a boundary, a limit between ‘you’ and ‘not you’, between ‘Ivan’ and ‘not Ivan’? Is it the skin?
Notice where the different experiences are taking place, the hearing, the smelling, the touching, even the thinking (but not the content of thought), where is it all taking place?
Is there an inside and an outside, or is it all taking place in the same space?
Is the body doing the experiencing or is it experienced?

Stay with what is happening, right here and now. Don’t look at thoughts for the answers, thoughts are like trips into what’s not happening.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
yic17
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:58 am

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby yic17 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:46 pm

At the start of this investigation, you agreed that I am not your teacher, all I do is point in the direction of direct experience to find out what’s true. My finger is pointing to the moon, don’t focus on the finger, follow it and look to where it’s pointing. 

Anything I would tell you about the experience felt here would create a new layer of expectation about what it should feel like, look like, etc.
 

Oh, I am not trying to use your experience as to how I should feel/look for. It is more as motivation. Right now I feel like I am jumping into a pitch black hole and would like to know a bit more of what's on the other side. Some motivation to ease my resistance …
A little exercise to finish, just to keep looking into the actuality of experience. 
After you have read these lines, close your eyes. 
Can you feel a boundary, a limit between ‘you’ and ‘not you’, between ‘Ivan’ and ‘not Ivan’? Is it the skin? 
Notice where the different experiences are taking place, the hearing, the smelling, the touching, even the thinking (but not the content of thought), where is it all taking place? 
Is there an inside and an outside, or is it all taking place in the same space? 
Is the body doing the experiencing or is it experienced? 

Stay with what is happening, right here and now. Don’t look at thoughts for the answers, thoughts are like trips into what’s not happening.
Yeah, I can see how if I just focus on the experiences, then there is no boundary. Different experiences are taking places everywhere - in the same space. And I suppose the body is experienced rather than experiencing as well.

So what next?

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Ready for Awakening!!!

Postby Freddi » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:51 pm

What's next?
You could answer a couple of questions I asked you earlier:

1) Is ‘thinking’ a verifiable, tangible sense in the same way as hearing, seeing, touching, smelling?
2) Can you come up with one thought that you can be 100% sure is true, when measured up to your experience, not believed in?

Then I'll come back to you on the pointing exercise.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 64 guests