Thread for Elmas

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Dava
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Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:27 am

Hi Elmas,

Let me know when you're here and we can kick things off.
A brief introduction would be helpful.

Best wishes,

Dava

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:53 pm

If you haven't done so already, could you check out the disclaimer;
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also, please check through my guidelines for our dialogue and make sure you are happy to agree to them.

1. You agree to post regularly (ideally once a day).
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

I am living in the UK, so operating on GMT.

If you are happy to continue on the basis of the above guidelines, then I have a few questions to get us started.

What are your hopes or expectations for this journey?
If you are successful, how will this feel, how will it change you?

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:12 am

Also, please check through my guidelines for our dialogue and make sure you are happy to agree to them.

1. You agree to post regularly (ideally once a day).

YES. BUT THEY MAY WELL BE VERY LATE AT NIGHT/IN THE EARLY HOURS OF THE MORNING.

2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.

SURE.

3. Responses require your utmost honesty.
WILL DO MY BEST TO VERY HONEST.

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
SURE. THE LAST SENTENCE IS A RELIEF!

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

I INTEND TO CONTINUE MY DHARMA AND MEDITATION PRACTICE AND TO TAKE THIS PROCESS DEEPLY SERIOUSLY. I DON'T SEE THEM AS SEPARATE.

I am living in the UK, so operating on GMT.

THAT'S USEFUL INFO.

If you are happy to continue on the basis of the above guidelines, then I have a few questions to get us started.

What are your hopes or expectations for this journey?
TO DEEPEN INSIGHT INTO IMPERMANENCE & TO STRENGTHEN THE PROCESS OF LOVING LOVING THAT IS LESS INFLUENCED BY FEAR AND THE DESIRE TO CONTROL.

If you are successful, how will this feel, how will it change you?
I'M AFRAID I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. IT'S A QUESTION ABOUT THE FUTURE AND THE UNKNOWN, THIS IS LEAP INTO THE DARK AFTER ALL, OR IS THE LIGHT? I WILL BE BETTER ABLE TO ANSWER THAT ONCE I'M SUCCESSFUL. BUT BASED ON SOME EXPERIENCE OF A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF IMPERMANENCE AND INTUITION, I IMAGINE THAT DOUBT IN THE DHARMA WILL COME TO AN END, CONFIDENCE WILL BLOSSOM AND LOVE WILL BE AN EVEN MORE CONSISTENT COMPANION. AND I WOULD BE DEEPLY HAPPY TO IMAGINE THAT 'I' WILL BE AN EVEN GREATER FORCE FOR GOOD IN THIS WORLD.


THANK YOU DAVA FOR BEING THEIR, IN ONE WAY THINGS HAVE HARDLY STARTED BUT THINGS ARE STIRRING IN THE DEPTHS AND I'M GRATEFUL TO YOU.

I HOPE YOU'RE IN GOOD HEALTH AND GENERALLY HAPPY

E

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:14 am

Also, please check through my guidelines for our dialogue and make sure you are happy to agree to them.

1. You agree to post regularly (ideally once a day).

YES. BUT THEY MAY WELL BE VERY LATE AT NIGHT/IN THE EARLY HOURS OF THE MORNING.

2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.

SURE.

3. Responses require your utmost honesty.
WILL DO MY BEST TO VERY HONEST.

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
SURE. THE LAST SENTENCE IS A RELIEF!

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

I INTEND TO CONTINUE MY DHARMA AND MEDITATION PRACTICE AND TO TAKE THIS PROCESS DEEPLY SERIOUSLY. I DON'T SEE THEM AS SEPARATE.

I am living in the UK, so operating on GMT.

THAT'S USEFUL INFO.

If you are happy to continue on the basis of the above guidelines, then I have a few questions to get us started.

What are your hopes or expectations for this journey?
TO DEEPEN INSIGHT INTO IMPERMANENCE & TO STRENGTHEN THE PROCESS OF LOVING LOVING THAT IS LESS INFLUENCED BY FEAR AND THE DESIRE TO CONTROL.

If you are successful, how will this feel, how will it change you?
I'M AFRAID I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. IT'S A QUESTION ABOUT THE FUTURE AND THE UNKNOWN, THIS IS LEAP INTO THE DARK AFTER ALL, OR IS THE LIGHT? I WILL BE BETTER ABLE TO ANSWER THAT ONCE I'M SUCCESSFUL. BUT BASED ON SOME EXPERIENCE OF A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF IMPERMANENCE AND INTUITION, I IMAGINE THAT DOUBT IN THE DHARMA WILL COME TO AN END, CONFIDENCE WILL BLOSSOM AND LOVE WILL BE AN EVEN MORE CONSISTENT COMPANION. AND I WOULD BE DEEPLY HAPPY TO IMAGINE THAT 'I' WILL BE AN EVEN GREATER FORCE FOR GOOD IN THIS WORLD.


THANK YOU DAVA FOR BEING THEIR, IN ONE WAY THINGS HAVE HARDLY STARTED BUT THINGS ARE STIRRING IN THE DEPTHS AND I'M GRATEFUL TO YOU.

I HOPE YOU'RE IN GOOD HEALTH AND GENERALLY HAPPY

E

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:45 am

Thanks Elmas.

Before we go any further, I would like to draw your attention to the quote feature, for which I post an instructional link below:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

This will avoid you having to use capitals to distinguish my questions from your answers and is really quite helpful.

So, on to your answers.
I INTEND TO CONTINUE MY DHARMA AND MEDITATION PRACTICE AND TO TAKE THIS PROCESS DEEPLY SERIOUSLY. I DON'T SEE THEM AS SEPARATE.
No problem.
We're simply looking to keep this investigation based on what's actually going on, rather than understanding through the filter of ideas (however refined), which can muddy the waters of Direct Experience.

In relation to your hopes and expectations.
TO DEEPEN INSIGHT INTO IMPERMANENCE & TO STRENGTHEN THE PROCESS OF LOVING LOVING THAT IS LESS INFLUENCED BY FEAR AND THE DESIRE TO CONTROL.
We're primarily going to be investigating the insubstantial (illusory) nature of the separate self. Once you notice this (and keep noticing it) then it is obvious that where there is no substance, there can be no permanence. We will also investigate control as part of this process, and fear if necessary.
I'M AFRAID I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. IT'S A QUESTION ABOUT THE FUTURE AND THE UNKNOWN, THIS IS LEAP INTO THE DARK AFTER ALL, OR IS THE LIGHT? I WILL BE BETTER ABLE TO ANSWER THAT ONCE I'M SUCCESSFUL. BUT BASED ON SOME EXPERIENCE OF A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF IMPERMANENCE AND INTUITION, I IMAGINE THAT DOUBT IN THE DHARMA WILL COME TO AN END, CONFIDENCE WILL BLOSSOM AND LOVE WILL BE AN EVEN MORE CONSISTENT COMPANION. AND I WOULD BE DEEPLY HAPPY TO IMAGINE THAT 'I' WILL BE AN EVEN GREATER FORCE FOR GOOD IN THIS WORLD.
Yes, it is a question about the future and the unknown, and as such is asked in order to bring up any ideas or expectations that have been worked up on the basis of a separate self being projected into the future where something happens to "it". So yes, treat it as a leap into the unknown and put any expectations to one side.

A few questions then;

When you refer to an 'I' that is successful, an 'I' that has a deeper understanding and intuition, an 'I' that is confident and has no doubt in the dharma, what does this 'I' refer to in direct experience?
Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?"

With best wishes,
Dava

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:31 am

When you refer to an 'I' that is successful, an 'I' that has a deeper understanding and intuition, an 'I' that is confident and has no doubt in the dharma, what does this 'I' refer to in direct experience?
Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?"

I'm afraid I'm rubbish with computers and I'm not sure even LU can shift that view!!! I'm not sure if I've managed to put the above in quotes or not! Most annoying and frustrating!

When I first read your questions above I laughed out loud! (LOL) Thinking this is going to be fun, exciting and challenging! Good and difficult questions! It's no easy for me to say! In a way, it's easier for me to talk about the opposites egs. doubt in the dharma and lack of trust in intuition I guess characterised by anxiety and worry and even a sense of shame (in the negative sense of the word.) Let let me try to answer your questions directly, try.

In direct experience it's characterised by an absense of self-criticism, a deep sense of ease in the mind and even the body, I can't say it has a shape but I could say that this I feels big and fearless. To a major extent I'm trying to describe my experience not so much on Wednesday evening when I was teaching but on Tuesday evening when I was teaching. I'm repeating myself but there was an inner knowing and an inner security that wasn't looking for approval from others. Without any effort there was a deeper natural assertiveness and authority. It felt deeply respectful to myself and life really. I'm struggling to say more Dava, it's not easy to put into words.

I have a feeling you're consistently going to ask me difficult questions!

At regular intervals during the day I felt moved and grateful that you are there. Someone I don't know giving of their time, careful attention and love. Thank you very much. I don't know where this is going, I'll do my best to remain open.

Kind wishes to you

E

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:54 am

I never saw the quote function used like that before, you can try next time round again. Make sure you highlight the entire section of my text that you wish to quote and then click the Quote button. This will surround my text with two sets of quote parenthesis. Keep trying, no worries if it takes a few mis-clicks to master.
When I first read your questions above I laughed out loud! (LOL) Thinking this is going to be fun, exciting and challenging! Good and difficult questions!
I'm glad to hear it. Whilst this will be a thorough going process, leaving no stone unturned whatsoever, it doesn't need to be heavy and serious. It is very much of the nature of an experiment, in which we bring a playful sense of curiosity and openness in which anything can happen. So yes, fun, exciting and challenging is the way to go.

When I asked you the questions;
When you refer to an 'I' that is successful, an 'I' that has a deeper understanding and intuition, an 'I' that is confident and has no doubt in the dharma, what does this 'I' refer to in direct experience?
Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?
I was actually referring to the 'I' that you referred to, in the sense that you conceive of an 'I' that will do all of these things. We're not actually looking at the content of the events or experiences that could happen to the 'I', but the actual concept of the 'I' itself.

So I will ask again;

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience?
Is it located somewhere? does it have a shape? A size? A quality?

Warm wishes,
Dava

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:17 pm

I was actually referring to the 'I' that you referred to, in the sense that you conceive of an 'I' that will do all of these things. We're not actually looking at the content of the events or experiences that could happen to the 'I', but the actual concept of the 'I' itself.

So I will ask again;

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience?
Is it located somewhere? does it have a shape? A size? A quality?

Warm wishes,

Hello again Dava,

I'm at a loss. When I first read your post, I mean the quote above (hopefully it's worked!) I felt disheartened, rather deflated and frustrated. Then maybe 2 hours later I re-read your post and then just cried and cried. And am welling up again...I think this process is going to kill me. Something needs to die, I'm scared. I'm crying again as I write.

I don't know, I don't understand. I just know that 'things' change, there is only change. I don't know who I am, lots of processes all affecting each other. Pain comes and goes, pleasure comes and goes, sensations fluctuate, emotions change...(Some calm has re-emerged)

What does "I" refer to? I can only say a process, or processes of sensations, desires, emotions, images, thoughts. In terms of the things I specifically referred to, processes that give rise to deeper fulfillment and liberation.

I know I haven't written much but I feel empty.

I hope you're well

Kind wishes

E

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:06 pm

Hi Elmas,

Thank you for your honest and heartfelt reply, fear is clearly arising in response to these initial questions and that's totally understandable. I think it's going to be helpful if we take a look at this in order to help us along in the investigation. I think it's also helpful at this point if I give you something of a definition of Direct Experience (which I will now capitalise in order to highlight its centrality).
I'm going to define Direct Experience as being comprised of nothing more than sensations, thoughts and an unmistakable sense of aliveness. Whenever I refer you to Direct Experience, this is where I am asking you to answer from.

Just give yourself a few moments to settle where you are, and watch the breath coming and going for ten breaths.

Considering my questions again, look into Direct Experience and tell me what arises, exactly as it is experienced.
If fear comes up, describe this experience. What is it made of?

In Direct Experience, where is the "me" or "I" that is scared or that can be killed by this process?

Tell me what is found, just as it is found.

With metta,
Dava

p.s. You got the quotes, good one!

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:28 am

Hello again Dava,
Thank you for your honest and heartfelt reply, fear is clearly arising in response to these initial questions and that's totally understandable.
Yes, I take it as a good sign actually. Something is clearly being threatened, I'm being threatened by a radically different perspective. I feel like I'm playing chess with someone much better than me! Though I only hope check mate results in defeat for limitation and ignorance!
I think it's also helpful at this point if I give you something of a definition of Direct Experience (which I will now capitalise in order to highlight its centrality).
I'm going to define Direct Experience as being comprised of nothing more than sensations, thoughts and an unmistakable sense of aliveness. Whenever I refer you to Direct Experience, this is where I am asking you to answer from.
When I read this I had two responses, first was relief and gratitude, then I got a bit annoyed! Why didn't he or she tell me before? It's now much clearer, now I know much more better what you are talking about.
Just give yourself a few moments to settle where you are, and watch the breath coming and going for ten breaths.
Sounds like a simple, sound suggestion.
Considering my questions again, look into Direct Experience and tell me what arises, exactly as it is experienced.
If fear comes up, describe this experience. What is it made of?

In Direct Experience, where is the "me" or "I" that is scared or that can be killed by this process?

Tell me what is found, just as it is found.
OK, let's have another go. Around my chest area I can feel my heart beat and mildly unpleasant sensations that I label as mild anxiety. In my jaw, cheeks and legs are feelings of release and energy. In the back of my neck and jaw rushes of energy (priti). I re-read the first part of the quote above and in my lower jaw and chest fear arose. Actually this process is not easy to keep up with because energy and sensations are changing so quickly that I can't really keep up! I type slowly! I had the thought, 'What's this got to to do with an illusory self?' I am wondering if I've got this right, what will you think? I wonder if she'll put me into check? :) I'm sure she will! GOL = Giggle Out Loud!

Where is "I' in Direct Experience? What a mystery! Well I could tell you about sensations and energy in various parts of my body, I could tell you about priti. I could tell you about feelings of being moved of a sense of vitality but honestly I can't keep up with the details. Broadly speaking I feel open and alive. Forehead feels relaxed and pleasant. I could go on and on like that but the process would never end! Again thoughts of, "have I got the right end of the stick?" What will she say? Sensations in my buttocks unpleasant' they feel sore. Shoulders a bit tight and unpleasant. Dava, this could go on and on!

For now I'll stop there and see what you say!

May you be healthy and well

Kind wishes

Elmas

P.S. Pleasant sensations in the head and cheeks that I label as happiness and pride that I could use the quotes properly! :)

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:47 am

OK, let's have another go. Around my chest area I can feel my heart beat and mildly unpleasant sensations that I label as mild anxiety. In my jaw, cheeks and legs are feelings of release and energy. In the back of my neck and jaw rushes of energy (priti). I re-read the first part of the quote above and in my lower jaw and chest fear arose. Actually this process is not easy to keep up with because energy and sensations are changing so quickly that I can't really keep up! I type slowly! I had the thought, 'What's this got to to do with an illusory self?' I am wondering if I've got this right, what will you think? I wonder if she'll put me into check? :) I'm sure she will! GOL = Giggle Out Loud!

Where is "I' in Direct Experience? What a mystery! Well I could tell you about sensations and energy in various parts of my body, I could tell you about priti. I could tell you about feelings of being moved of a sense of vitality but honestly I can't keep up with the details. Broadly speaking I feel open and alive. Forehead feels relaxed and pleasant. I could go on and on like that but the process would never end! Again thoughts of, "have I got the right end of the stick?" What will she say? Sensations in my buttocks unpleasant' they feel sore. Shoulders a bit tight and unpleasant. Dava, this could go on and on!

For now I'll stop there and see what you say!
This is great, a lovely description of sensations arising.
So at what point does this rich arising of sensations become fear?
How does the fear operate?
"What's this got to do with the illusory self?"
Well lets have a look.

Does the arising of these sensations in any way point to a separate entity called "I" that is "having" the experience?
That is, did you or can you find a separate self to which these sensations happen?
If so, how does the self that is separate from these sensations manifest?

p.s. An extra top-tip. Click the 'subscribe' button at the bottom of this thread and you'll receive an e-mail each time I reply to you.

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:10 am

Thanks again Dava for your time and responsiveness,
This is great, a lovely description of sensations arising.
So at what point does this rich arising of sensations become fear?
How does the fear operate?
I glad I seem to have got something right!! :) LOL

Things have changed for now, fear is not a noticeable feature of my present experience(s).
Well lets have a look.

Does the arising of these sensations in any way point to a separate entity called "I" that is "having" the experience?
That is, did you or can you find a separate self to which these sensations happen?
If so, how does the self that is separate from these sensations manifest?
I'm struggling to understand your language a little. Now a little anxiety has arisen! Sensations become anxiety with anxiety provoking 'views' or 'thoughts', egs. "will she get annoyed with me?", "will she withdraw her love from me?"

I'm struggling to relate to your word 'separate'. I can see that sensations are in flux, I can not own or fix them. I can not say in any fixed way that they are me or mine.

I am going to say that (for now) that there IS a separate process, these sensations are manifesting in time and space, right here and now, for example there are some unpleasant sensations right now in my lower back as I write. As I investigate them, I notice they are slightly throbbing and fluctuating all the time, they are changing, I can not completely control them. But it is THIS particular psycho-physical organism they are happening to and not to you or my friend in the next room. But I can not say they are me or mine as life right now for me is both much broader and richer (I could tell you also about lots of pleasure right now in my ever changing experience too) and the sensations of discomfort are not fixed and permanent. If you are asking me to look right here and now, this is what I can say. But if I reflect a little I can say this body came into being and continues to be alive as result of countless causes and conditions, like my mother and father meeting, and farmers harvesting the food I ate today and in that sense my sensations and experience are not separate from the rest of creation. This way of thinking quite often, like now, moves me. Is this what you're getting at? Somehow I think not.

For now, I can only relate to separation, I mean non-separation through reflections like above.

I'll stop there for now.

Thanks again Dava. Being a guide is a remarkable offering.

Kind wishes

E

P.S. I've subscribed but my computer still isn't mended! I'm still relying on the kind generosity of my neighbour lending me her computer.

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:48 pm

I'm struggling to understand your language a little. Now a little anxiety has arisen! Sensations become anxiety with anxiety provoking 'views' or 'thoughts', egs. "will she get annoyed with me?", "will she withdraw her love from me?"
Well you just answered my original question (describing how fear operates) through your description of anxiety.
Sensations with thoughts (stories) attached.
I'm struggling to relate to your word 'separate'. I can see that sensations are in flux, I can not own or fix them. I can not say in any fixed way that they are me or mine.
Separation occurs when we seemingly fix the flux, or apparently isolate something from it, in this case the sense of a "me" that operates separately from the flux, separate from the totality.
I am going to say that (for now) that there IS a separate process, these sensations are manifesting in time and space, right here and now, for example there are some unpleasant sensations right now in my lower back as I write. As I investigate them, I notice they are slightly throbbing and fluctuating all the time, they are changing, I can not completely control them. But it is THIS particular psycho-physical organism they are happening to and not to you or my friend in the next room. But I can not say they are me or mine as life right now for me is both much broader and richer (I could tell you also about lots of pleasure right now in my ever changing experience too) and the sensations of discomfort are not fixed and permanent. If you are asking me to look right here and now, this is what I can say. But if I reflect a little I can say this body came into being and continues to be alive as result of countless causes and conditions, like my mother and father meeting, and farmers harvesting the food I ate today and in that sense my sensations and experience are not separate from the rest of creation. This way of thinking quite often, like now, moves me. Is this what you're getting at? Somehow I think not.
Some more rich observations from Direct Experience here, but there are also a few assumptions and ideas nestled within. Rather than address these specifically, I think it would be best if we paved the way for a more natural unravelling, by looking at what is, rather than ideas about what is.

So, I'm going to give you a few practical exercises to carry out, which are designed to give a clear sense of the distinction between Direct Experience and what we might call "secondary experience" as mediated through assumptions and ideas (contents of thoughts).

So, let's start with seeing.

Take of an object in your house that you are familiar with.
It can be anything really, a piece of fruit or a vegetable, your computer, whatever, you just need to know what it looks like.
Now think about this object, so that you have what you think is a reasonably clear picture of what it looks like in reality.
When you have done this, look at the actual object.
What do you notice?

Repeat this with other objects.


Moving onto hearing.

I want you to imagine a piece of music that you are familiar with (and have access to).
Something that you can easily evoke in your "minds ear".
Listen to how you think the music sounds.
Now I want you to play that piece of music and actually listen to it.
What do you notice?

You can repeat this with other pieces of music.


Continue this experiment by exploring thoughts of touching, tasting and smelling compared to the actual experience of touching tasting and smelling.

Report back to me with your conclusions.

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Elmas » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:32 pm

Separation occurs when we seemingly fix the flux, or apparently isolate something from it, in this case the sense of a "me" that operates separately from the flux, separate from the totality.
This feels like a very important sentence, I can,t say I,m there yet but I,ve read it 4-5 times and and somthing has stirred!
Take of an object in your house that you are familiar with.
It can be anything really, a piece of fruit or a vegetable, your computer, whatever, you just need to know what it looks like.
Now think about this object, so that you have what you think is a reasonably clear picture of what it looks like in reality.
When you have done this, look at the actual object.
What do you notice?
I chose heasdphones I brought to the internet cafe. I noticed that I could only really have a sense of one side of the headsphones and that my attention and interest quite easily wondered off. Them I looked at the headphones and felt some facsination to see it much more clearly and to notice so much more, including dust in some parts but them strangely I felt kind of love or affection towards my headphones.
I want you to imagine a piece of music that you are familiar with (and have access to).
Something that you can easily evoke in your "minds ear".
Listen to how you think the music sounds.
Now I want you to play that piece of music and actually listen to it.
What do you notice?
In my minds ear when I recollected the song and performance I quickly came alive with strong experiences of pleaasueable energy in my neck and head but then after a little while I got anxious, then I asked myself why and the thought that maybe I,ve got this 'wrong' came to mind. Wow, just listened to it with eyes closed:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcrAMZmCAG4 - 2 mins. if you,re interested)

It was very rich indeed! It started with rapture in my head and heart area, feelings of being moved in my heart area and for a while I was also aware of some anxiety but about 2 thirds of the way through the energy was so intense and pleasurable throughout most of my body that I thought I was going to be lifted up from the chair!

I,m going to do one more, eventually I focused on imagining stroking the right side of my face and when I did this my face became softer and more relaxed...I,ve just stroked my face it was pleasuresable and soothing but I had more thoughts.

What did Iearn? When I imagine with the mind I CAN experience and bring to life 'things' and can even have quite strong experiences but with the direct, immediate experience generally speaking the expeerience is more intense and detailed. And there's less effort involved in the direct version.

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Re: Thread for Elmas

Postby Dava » Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:06 pm

What did Iearn? When I imagine with the mind I CAN experience and bring to life 'things' and can even have quite strong experiences but with the direct, immediate experience generally speaking the expeerience is more intense and detailed. And there's less effort involved in the direct version.
Next time you go to eat something I want you first to imagine eating it, imagine the taste and texture of it in your mouth. Then actually eat it and tell me, was it the same experience?

Can you taste a thought?
Do thoughts have a texture?

Is there any reality whatsoever to the contents of thoughts about an experience compared to Direct Experience?


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