Thread for russe1

[Vivien]

Hi russe1,

I've created this thread for you based on our previous communications. All our further conversation will be through this thread.

I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

But before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

How can I call you, russe1 is fine or would you prefer something else?

Love, Vivien

[russe1]

Vivien
At last thank you for this . Please call me Paul
My expectations : to see what I clearly must be missing at present ...I hear it is obvious which just makes it worse .. But I also do not really know what to expect ha .
How will life change : I suppose I will be calm and less pushy about life not going how I want it . I would like to be able to accept things as they are .
What wll be different : my outlook I suppose .. This is all supposing and assumption
Intellectually I know an ' I' can't exist bug the hold is so great I get lost ...
I feel frustrated and like I will never get the only lessen that life has to offer !! There I said it .
Please help ..

[Vivien]

Dear Paul,

Can you confirm that you’ve read the ground rules and agree with them?


Please learn how to use the quote function. It will be very useful, because I’ll ask a lot of questions. As far as I know the quote function doesn’t work on IPads and phones, so it is better for replying from a PC.

When you post NOT by pressing the ‘Quick Reply’ but with ‘Post Reply’ (purple-orange button in the left corner of the bottom of the page), then under the text box all the previous posts will appear. You can also “Expand view” of the previous posts if it’s needed. Select/highlight the lines you’d like to quote, press the quote button, and it’ll be automatically put into the text box.

Before you post, you experiment with the quote function. You can do this with pressing the “Preview” button frequently.

--

Thank you for your list about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?

My expectations : to see what I clearly must be missing at present ...

What is missing at present?

But I also do not really know what to expect ha .

That’s good :)

How will life change : I suppose I will be calm and less pushy about life not going how I want it . I would like to be able to accept things as they are .

Yes, this may happen, however being not calm, and being pushy is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

So being not calm or being pushy still can happen, alongside with identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

But life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.

Intellectually I know an ' I' can't exist bug the hold is so great I get lost ...
I feel frustrated and like I will never get the only lessen that life has to offer !! There I said it .

This is what we are going to work on.

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Love, Vivien

[russe1]

I can confirm I have read and understand the way this works . Thank you

At present I feel something may be missing , happiness , contentment . I am not sure if I can even word it , but yes, something out of place ....not quite right , not mentally but more that I am sure other people aren't has 'strung out' about trivial issues ...

There is a natural resistance her with me to open up anyway , to anyone in life, I am not an open book , I am a private individual, (where this is coming from I don't know ,but you want honesty , here it is )

I do not feel resistant to this process , I know you will guide me , and I trust in you ...
I found it difficult to write about any expectations because writing it means , a slow methodical look at it and not just firing back verbal answers , its not comfortable and I am not sure what will come out ! Confusion reigns !

In general there is a feeling of not fulfilling , not enjoying life , and I am not very happy ...ever!! this is sad actually!!

[russe1]

Vivien
To be absolutely ,totally honest , having looked into this , really looked at it ... I don't feel any resistance to these questions. Please continue. Paul

[Vivien]

Dear Paul,

Thank you for your honesty.

At present I feel something may be missing , happiness , contentment .
In general there is a feeling of not fulfilling , not enjoying life , and I am not very happy ...ever!! this is sad actually!!

It is important to note that seeing through the illusion of the self is not a self-improvement. There won’t be a better version of ‘you’. However, contentment or happiness can arise from seeing no-self, BUT it doesn’t mean that happiness and contentment will be a new and constant state.

Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.
Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

I found it difficult to write about any expectations because writing it means , a slow methodical look at it and not just firing back verbal answers , its not comfortable and I am not sure what will come out ! Confusion reigns !

It is not comfortable because you’re not used to it, and because ‘you’ believe what thoughts suggest. Thoughts suggest: “This is not comfortable” – and since it is not seen only as an arising thought, but rather believed, certain associated emotions can arise.

Our whole conversation will be about “a slow methodical look” and not a quick intellectual answering. So it is better to use to it :)

OK then, let’s start it.

The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

(Please use the quote function with each question.)

Love, Vivien

[russe1]

Thank you Vivien , I am reading this on the train on my way to work .. I will answer accurately and honestly when I get in an relax into it ... Thank you :)

[russe1]

Thank you Vivien : Your words about states of experience and passing thoughts have 'struck home' . It looks like every thought or passing experience (object) is like a suggestion happening each moment .

You asked :
Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?
It would be accurate to say i feel like a person , as normal , sitting in front of the computer reading and typing words. But as i looked there was a moment of hesitation where another thought ' are you absolutely sure ' can sailing through (my head ??) But definitely a sense of being 'here ness' .


You asked : What does the word 'I' point to?
The word 'I' points to me as a located position ...as me , this hereness.

You asked : What makes this body ‘yours’?
It belongs to this , this what ?? hhmm ! its always here when every else changes it is a constant .

You ask : What makes this body ‘you’?
The body is me as it feels like it is here, not removed from here , i can see it too (my arms and hands , thighs etc) ,( but not my head :) , i know its here ... i nearly said ' i believe it is anyway '

This is really good i can feel something .... still no resistance to you and your methods .. you are healing this ?? i think .

(can you go through that quote function , i hit quote and it just types the word quote on the screen . i can carry on this way though , i feel upbeat today :) :) Paul

[Vivien]

Dear Paul,

Vivien: What makes this body ‘yours’?

Paul: It belongs to this , this what ?? hhmm ! its always here when every else changes it is a constant .

What does the body belong too?
What is that is always here and constant?


OK, now we try to find the ‘owner’ of the body.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.
But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.

We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
What is found, what comes up?

Love, Vivien

[russe1]

Thank you V.

You asked: What does the body belong too?
What ? Really looking, as you advocate , it doesn't belong to anything particularly , only life , it is natural occurring phenomena , I believe.. .This is good , the body cause problems for me , in my thinking (that's interesting !!) :)
if its a what then its an object ??

You ask : What is it that is always here and constant?
My (the ) body always appears to be here , every morning , it goes everywhere with me ( uninvited I might add ) ha !
It seems to be what I am , what I identify with (interesting that there are two things now : body and I :) ) so ..... I am not the body .....slowly now .... I,m going to reread and relook at this !!
The body is assumed to be here and constant whenever I am ... its an identity thing isn't it ? The 'i' identifies itself with the body , as the body .

You said:
Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

I can only be thought of , or felt ..not sure if I thought of 'i' or I feel 'i' , or if there is any difference , there is the suggestion of 'i' :)

You said:
Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.
Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.
You ask: Now, can it be found what is seeing them?

There is seeing black squiggles on a white background .There is only the seeing , but still a sense of being seen from a point . There is a view of the words and screen etc ...an angle ... the origin of that is thought /believed to be ME ... but there is just seeing ..



You ask :Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
only seeing , like a continuous loop :


You ask: What is found, what comes up?
There is deep feeling , when I look for who is seeing , I feel breathing , sounds , tingling .... movement , all experienced at a location though !!! HERE . I find HERE .

Push Me V :) Love Paul

[Vivien]

Dear Paul,

You’re doing very well. :)

This is good , the body cause problems for me , in my thinking (that's interesting !!) :)

What is the ‘me’ that the body could cause problems to?
Where is this ‘me’ exactly that supposedly owns thinking?

It seems to be what I am , what I identify with (interesting that there are two things now : body and I :) ) so ..... I am not the body

OK, so ‘you’ are not the body. Then what is this ‘I’ that has a body?

I can only be thought of , or felt ..not sure if I thought of 'i' or I feel 'i' , or if there is any difference , there is the suggestion of 'i' :)

“There is a suggestion of ‘I’”- what suggests the ‘I’?

There is only the seeing , but still a sense of being seen from a point . There is a view of the words and screen etc ...an angle ... the origin of that is thought /believed to be ME ... but there is just seeing ..

Yes, there is only seeing. The rest (“there is a view from an angle”) is just the content of an arising thought.

Does the pure sensation of seeing suggest in any way a ‘direction’ or a ‘point of view’, or only the content of thoughts suggest this?

There is deep feeling , when I look for who is seeing , I feel breathing , sounds , tingling .... movement , all experienced at a location though !!! HERE . I find HERE .

Let’s examine this deeply.

Can a location or ‘here’ be REALLY felt?

In the actual experience there are:

• (1) The pure sensation PRIOR TO any thoughts, like seeing, or the pure, raw bodily sensations
  
  (2) Simultaneously arising mental labels (thoughts), like “this is a tree”, “breathing”, “sound of a bird”
  
  (3) Simultaneously arising mental images (pictures), like pictures about certain body parts, or the whole body (like a picture about the body sitting on a chair in front of the screen)
  
  (4) Arising thoughts stories interpreting the experience, the mental labels and images, like “There is a deep feeling or sense that things are seen from a point of view, from here”

Read this several times, and observe this process. Observe all the 4 elements (raw sensations, mental labels, mental images, thought stories) one-by-one. Let me know how it goes.

Love, Vivien

[russe1]

good morning Vivien , I hope you are very well :)

You asked : What is the ‘me’ that the body could cause problems to?
The 'me' seems to act in connection with the body , writing this it is becoming clearer and clearer that the me and the body are two separate objects : one tangible (body) one intangible (thought 'me'), but thinking this implies concept which in turn implies thought or both. The body seems real(objectified ) ....are body and thought the same thing????

You asked : Where is this ‘me’ exactly that supposedly owns thinking?
Me and thinking happen , it seems , at the same time ...well thinking happens (this I am clear about , no one does it , it happens :) ) and the me is assumed to be... doing it ?? but it can't .... its habit to assume though ...thinking and 'me-ing ' are habitually joined together ..they are one ... so the same ?? YES !!! :)

I is suggested through the thought process , it could be said that 'i' am a process but this brings thought in to do so .... therefore confirming , in a way , that it is a process dependent on thought and me and object and and and ....it goes on ME AND IT constantly one needing the other to survive ...

You said :
Yes, there is only seeing. The rest (“there is a view from an angle”) is just the content of an arising thought.

But ,nevertheless, there seems to be a view , and in this experience it is viewed from here , from Viviens experience it is viewed from there ... now I realise this takes thought ... so is just another thought happening . there is a sense of place !!! A SENSE OF PLACE !!!!! ( not actual just sensed) doesn't that make it real??? sorry I am rambling but this is how it is just coming out .. as I type it is just coming up ...

For there to be a view , 'i' thought must abstract an object (computer monitor ) from the whole picture and 'zoom in ' on it , focus on it ... on doing so there must be a viewer ... but there is no seen without seeing so these are one .. but is there object (seen) or subject (seer) ... there are ONE ... 'seeing ' content is abstraction which is thought !!!

You asked : Can a location or ‘here’ be REALLY felt?
Probably not , I cant word how this 'i' feels ... but it seems more felt than anything .. although that is body that is felt (sensation ) and 'i' am not the body ... there is sensation , seeing , feeling , all happening ....
Image of the body , the actual seeing the body , is a strong image ! it takes over other senses its hard to see beyond it !

There is initial sensation ,
Labels happen almost instantly , (thought)
Image is there too , straight away , as it ....
These three above are instantaneous ... boom !!
From that more thoughts and stories seem to arise , and happen ,, move deeply into me ... a forgetting of sensation and a moving towards ME .. I would say in the head , but I have no prove it is in the head at all!! just thought which appears here as instant images , imagination ( oh , oh ... imagination ?? wow :) thought !!

Sorry to ramble today but this is how it is ,, I get stuck , I shift on , I stick again ( notice 'I' used heavily here ) all thought ... ha

I AM GOING TO GO OVER THIS AGAIN !! its blurring now ... confusing , I need to rest .....let it sink in ....

You are so kind and gentle :) Paul

[Vivien]

Dear Paul,

well thinking happens (this I am clear about , no one does it , it happens :) ) and the me is assumed to be... doing it ?? but it can't .... its habit to assume though ...thinking and 'me-ing ' are habitually joined together ..they are one ... so the same ?? YES !!! :)

Very good LOOKing :)

But ,nevertheless, there seems to be a view , and in this experience it is viewed from here , from Viviens experience it is viewed from there ... now I realise this takes thought ... so is just another thought happening

Good looking :) Vivien’s experience is just the content of another thought.

but there is no seen without seeing so these are one .. but is there object (seen) or subject (seer) ... there are ONE ... 'seeing ' content is abstraction which is thought !!!

Very good.

There is initial sensation ,
Labels happen almost instantly , (thought)
Image is there too , straight away , as it ....
These three above are instantaneous ... boom !!

Yes, exactly. When…

• (1) raw bodily sensations
  (2) mental labels “this is my body”
  (3) mental images of the body or certain body parts “the body sitting on a chair”
  (4) and thought stories “I am sitting or a chair” are welded together (meaning not being able to see them separately) then the ILLUSION of the ME emerges.

Observe this:
Say out loud the word ‘I’ several times. At the same time try to trace back where the word ‘I’ point to. Try to localise where is the ‘I’ exactly.

You can observe that whenever the word ‘I’ is said or even thought about the focus of attention goes automatically to the bodily sensations (somewhere to the upper body or head or both). So there is a direct, automatic association between the word ‘I’ and the felt sensations in the body. Can you see this?

Can the ‘I’ be found in the actual experience other than a thought?

Love, Vivien

[russe1]

Hello : As a point of interest I ,wrongly, felt pleased and proud that you said good , or very good at my responses to the questions . Does this show a need for a 'me' liking approval ? interesting how the 'I' emerges in so called positive lights and so called negative lights and grades itself accordingly ... I like though .. (that's not good , I shouldn't like the 'i' ?? ) Anyways :

You said :

Observe this:
Say out loud the word ‘I’ several times. At the same time try to trace back where the word ‘I’ point to. Try to localise where is the ‘I’ exactly.
Paul : when I do this it is clearly just a sound , meaningless , but a referent ... to something assumed rather than known .

You said :
You can observe that whenever the word ‘I’ is said or even thought about the focus of attention goes automatically to the bodily sensations (somewhere to the upper body or head or both). So there is a direct, automatic association between the word ‘I’ and the felt sensations in the body. Can you see this?
Paul : I appears in the head area mainly , I can easily talk about my arm or leg , meaning if either were amputated and I was looking at the limb it would have formerly been apart of ME , but not actually me . My head is where it all happens .... oh .. again .. this good be profound !! It happens in my head implies :it happens in thought , including my body ... I need to look at this closely again !! :)


You asked : Can the ‘I’ be found in the actual experience other than a thought?
No , its a label put on anything (body , body part , thought , feeling ) whatever , but only a label , I attribute anything that is related to as happening to a ME , subtley through thought only ... but I need to see this in everyday life (there I go again !!!:) ) 'I' is a Label , a thought , universally stuck on many so called objects which arise soley in thought .. Ha :) its funny ...

Love Paul

[Vivien]

Dear Paul,

As a point of interest I ,wrongly, felt pleased and proud that you said good , or very good at my responses to the questions .

:) OK, let’s find this ‘I’ that felt pleased and proud.

Where is this ‘I’ exactly?
Where is the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the responses?

interesting how the 'I' emerges in so called positive lights and so called negative lights and grades itself accordingly ...

Good observations :)

Paul : when I do this it is clearly just a sound , meaningless , but a referent ... to something assumed rather than known .

Where is this ‘something’ assumed?
Is there REALLY something ‘behind’ the assumption?

My head is where it all happens .... oh .. again .. this good be profound !! It happens in my head implies :it happens in thought , including my body ... I need to look at this closely again !! :)

OK, read my words again carefully. I’ve copied here:
You can observe that whenever the word ‘I’ is said or even thought about the focus of attention goes automatically to the bodily sensations (somewhere to the upper body or head or both). So there is a direct, automatic association between the word ‘I’ and the felt sensations in the body.

So I’m not suggesting that the ‘I’ is in the body or in the head, quite the contrary. I am pointing to LOOK that the SENSE OF ME emerges ONLY because the word ‘I’ and certain bodily sensations are automatically associated. Can you see this?

'I' is a Label , a thought , universally stuck on many so called objects which arise soley in thought .. Ha :) its funny ...

Really good observations :) LOOK directly for the ‘I’ that is supposedly claiming in this moment: “I’m pleased, I feel proud of myself”. (or something similar)

• 1. When the words are read: “Really good observations”
  2. almost immediately thoughts follow: “I am good at it”, “I am proud of myself”
  3. when these thoughts are believed associated emotions arise as bodily sensations
  4. BUMMM! The illusion of the ‘me’ is created, and it has 2 main elements:
  • a. The word ‘I’ in the thought: “I am good at it”, “I am proud”
    b. And the arising bodily sensations that are labelled as such and such emotion

Can you see this?

Love, Vivien