Tony1

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vinceschubert
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Tony1

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:03 pm

Hi Tony, ..but first a contract.
Are you willing to;
(try and) post every day ?
To give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
To relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
To suspend all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, satsang etc. Do tell me if you meditate and we can adjust that and continue it.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, which i want you not only to attempt to answer them, but to communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too http://www.liberationunleashed.com. Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Agreed ?

To use the quote function, first click "post reply"
Then scroll down to my post and highlight (drag mouse over) the question or part of it that you want to respond to, then click "quote" at the top of my reply. This will put the quote in the Reply editor, with the cursor ready for you to type your response.
Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

vince

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Re: Tony1

Postby Tony1 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:09 pm

Vince,

Thank you for agreeing to serve as my guide. I agree to the conditions and look forward to beginning. I do meditate daily and would like to continue if possible.
Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.
I have been meditating for several years and have had insights and openings along the way but still feel that I suffer due to identification with self. At this point I really just want to be done with this quest or search, whatever it turns out to be. If I can't be "done" I would at least like to not be searching, not feeling that something is missing or unknown. I want to put the burden down and get on with life.

Through this process I hope to suffer less and cause less suffering. I hope to be at peace. I don't know what I expect to happen. Probably not much I suppose. Maybe an "aha" moment and the dropping of unnecessary thoughts and processes that only cause me trouble anyway.

Tony

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Re: Tony1

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:12 pm

Good Morning Tony.
I do meditate daily and would like to continue if possible.
i too have done extensive Vipassana meditation (in the Goenka tradition) Sure, do continue to meditate, but (if you aren't already) change what you meditate on, to focusing on the arising of a thought. Totally ignoring the content of that thought. When you realize that you have been lost in content, imagine a celebratory laugh that starts deep in your lower abdomen and increases in intensity as it radiates in all directions, but mainly upwards, until it reaches the head. By the time it extends to face (and feet) level, the intensity should have reached a level where the (imagining) has the whole body spasming. Convulsing. Then return to watching the arising of thoughts. Of course, not judgements or opinions about how it is going. (unless they do, of course. ..and then no judgements or opinions about that either)
Do report on how this goes.
At this point I really just want to be done with this quest or search, whatever it turns out to be. If I can't be "done" I would at least like to not be searching, not feeling that something is missing or unknown.
Ha, i know what you mean. i too had a lifetime (43years) of seeking, before i finally stopped scratching the itch.
If you scratch an itchy mosquito bite, does it heal ?
Does the itch go away (for more than a minute or two) ?
For me the portal (to awakening) was the realization (realization = to make real), the re-cognition, that by the time i noticed any situation that was present, that it was already in the past. Therefore anything other than a good humored acceptance, a welcome acceptance, was not only futile, but inevitably led to suffering.
This is IT !
It was so simple. So obvious, that it resulted in great laughter. How could it possibly have been overlooked for all of those years ? There it was. Staring me in the face. Closer than my nose.
The amount of suffering experienced over the course of this lifetime could have filled a stadium, but rather than regret any of it, there was the recognition that every bit of it, and everything involved and associated with it, was what had brought me to this point. More laughter ensued.
If you are not chuckling by this point (or even if you are) write what experiencing is happening in Tony now.

love

vince

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Re: Tony1

Postby Tony1 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:23 pm

Vince,

Hello. Thank you for your reply and comments.
write what experiencing is happening in Tony now.
I'm not sure if you meant an experience or reaction to what you wrote or just my experience in this moment. I think the latter so I will say that I am aware of sensations - hearing, pressure, aches, warmth, etc. I feel a sense of anxiety and uncertainty. I am aware of thoughts, some of them judging and analyzing what I am writing or how I am presenting myself. The overall sense of the moment or experience is unpleasant and uncomfortable. I am aware of creating an "internet forum" self as I try to give the right or best response. Another of the many self hats that I can see myself wear throughout my life but can't seem to take off.

Tony

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Re: Tony1

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:58 pm

Good morning Tony.
Tony, please use the quote function for every question asked.
There are a couple of unanswered questions from my last post.
How do you relate to my story ?
In what ways is it relevant to your situation ?

love

vince

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Re: Tony1

Postby Tony1 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:01 pm

Hi Vince. Thanks again for your reply.
Tony, please use the quote function for every question asked.
Okay, got it.
Ha, i know what you mean. i too had a lifetime (43years) of seeking, before i finally stopped scratching the itch.
If you scratch an itchy mosquito bite, does it heal ?
Does the itch go away (for more than a minute or two) ?
Seeking does feel like a bite at this point, an itch that can't be ignored. Unlike a bite though, I feel like this won't go away without some attention or effort. I'm not sure how I got "bit" in the first place but now I feel like I can't go back, there is no way to stop the searching until it's done.
For me the portal (to awakening) was the realization (realization = to make real), the re-cognition, that by the time i noticed any situation that was present, that it was already in the past. Therefore anything other than a good humored acceptance, a welcome acceptance, was not only futile, but inevitably led to suffering.
I can appreciate this intellectually but not as an ongoing perspective or truth I guess. I try and I say "ya, but". But really you have to do this, or worry about that, or whatever. I do remember some hours or days on retreat where I had a sense very close to this, where everything was perfect because it simply could not be any other way. Not sure how I saw that then lost it or can't live it but I do remember being in that place for a short time.
This is IT !
It was so simple. So obvious, that it resulted in great laughter. How could it possibly have been overlooked for all of those years ? There it was. Staring me in the face. Closer than my nose.
This makes me feel a bit frustrated and unsure of how I am following my path. Many people say similar things of course, like it was obvious or simple once they saw. And here I am spending hours and years searching for whatever it is. Kind of like spending years in college and grad school to get a degree on how to tie your shoes. Am I wasting my time? Why can't I just see it if it is so easy?
The amount of suffering experienced over the course of this lifetime could have filled a stadium, but rather than regret any of it, there was the recognition that every bit of it, and everything involved and associated with it, was what had brought me to this point. More laughter ensued.
And this is the other side of it I guess. Is everything I have been doing useful prep work for getting it done? I hope so.
How do you relate to my story ?
It's familiar. It's the seeking that just has to be sought. It's the itch you have to scratch. Once you look you can't stop until you find.
In what ways is it relevant to your situation ?
I like the idea that all that I have been through has in some way brought me to where I am and maybe prepared me for what is next. I also really feel that I am ready to see, that I've put my time in searching. If it's so simple, great. I'm just tired of looking.

Hope I covered it all. I will try the meditation technique and let you know how it goes.

Thanks much,
Tony

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Re: Tony1

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:10 pm

I'm not sure how I got "bit" in the first place but now I feel like I can't go back, there is no way to stop the searching until it's done.
Yes, there is a Buddhist saying about 'once you set foot on the path, there is no way it can't be completed' (or something like that)
there is no way to stop the searching until it's done.
Ok, this is a big one. It is true that searching will stop, but not because anything is found. It will be done when it is SEEn that what you are searching for was always present. It is 'closer than your nose'.
It is not additional.
It's not knowledge. That is simply information.
It is not Truth. That doesn't exist, except as concept.
It is not a state. That is an experience, and all experiencing is impermanent.
What is it ?
It is a discovery, a recognition. Then a realization.
Of what ?
This can't be put into words. You will know when it happens.
But really you have to do this, or worry about that, or whatever.
Do you ? Why ? Where does the compulsion come from ?
This is important. Look at the process as you ask this question. Where does the need to do this come from ?
Not sure how I saw that then lost it or can't live it but I do remember being in that place for a short time.
Is there an assumption that you did something that brought this on ?
Do you think that if you repeat that something, that it will happen again ?
This makes me feel a bit frustrated and unsure of how I am following my path.
Good. Your path didn't get you there, did it ?
It's actually not a path. It's not an accumulation of 'events' that will lead to an outcome.
What preparation do you need to recognize someone or something that you have known all of your life ?
Kind of like spending years in college and grad school to get a degree on how to tie your shoes. Am I wasting my time? Why can't I just see it if it is so easy?
Exactly. Not only that, but you knew how to tie your shoes before going to college.
"Wasting your time.." Ha, there is no such thing as time. There is only NOW, and that can't be wasted. Can you actually decide to do something different to what just happened ? (trick question)
Is everything I have been doing useful prep work for getting it done? I hope so.
Who knows. But one thing is for sure. If anything that has ever happened to you were to have happened differently, then there would be a different you reading this. It was all absolutely necessary to bring you to THIS.
I also really feel that I am ready to see,
Ah yes, i felt on the verge for some time before it 'happened'. A good sign.
Tony, go through the post and respond to each point discussed. (plus report any new experiencing)

love

vince

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Re: Tony1

Postby Tony1 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:06 pm

Hi Vince.
Yes, there is a Buddhist saying about 'once you set foot on the path, there is no way it can't be completed' (or something like that)
That makes sense. I think at least part of this is that once you have seen what is possible or experienced some degree of spiritual opening other pursuits just don't seem satisfactory anymore.
Ok, this is a big one. It is true that searching will stop, but not because anything is found. It will be done when it is SEEn that what you are searching for was always present. It is 'closer than your nose'.
It is not additional.
It's not knowledge. That is simply information.
It is not Truth. That doesn't exist, except as concept.
It is not a state. That is an experience, and all experiencing is impermanent.
What is it ?
It is a discovery, a recognition. Then a realization.
Of what ?
This can't be put into words. You will know when it happens.
I guess I understand what you are saying but only on an intellectual level. Like I can see the finger pointing at the moon but not the moon yet.
I can appreciate this intellectually but not as an ongoing perspective or truth I guess. I try and I say "ya, but". But really you have to do this, or worry about that, or whatever.
Do you ? Why ? Where does the compulsion come from ?
I do this I think to try and escape discomfort or try to create comfort or pleasure. It's not being content or okay with what is. Like if I'm stuck in traffic but I crave being home already instead. Whatever there is if there is something "better" to get or work toward that is what my mind does. And if things are what I want right now then there is worry about how to perpetuate it or about what's next.
This is important. Look at the process as you ask this question. Where does the need to do this come from ?
It comes from not accepting what is. It's arguing with reality. Intellectually I see that it's futile and pointless but that's what it is.
I do remember some hours or days on retreat where I had a sense very close to this, where everything was perfect because it simply could not be any other way. Not sure how I saw that then lost it or can't live it but I do remember being in that place for a short time.
Is there an assumption that you did something that brought this on ?
I assume the conditions for this were created by the meditation retreat. Being more mindful and concentrated maybe. Being somewhat isolated from my worldly problems. Maybe it was just a deep intellectual understanding. I don't remember the details of it very well but I do remember just feeling everything was okay and couldn't possibly be any different.
Do you think that if you repeat that something, that it will happen again ?
I honestly don't think it would be repeated under the same conditions. I'm not sure why. Maybe because I think that's already been seen to some degree and didn't stick.
Good. Your path didn't get you there, did it ?
No, the path hasn't gotten me there yet but I'm still on it and now it leads me here.
It's actually not a path. It's not an accumulation of 'events' that will lead to an outcome.
What preparation do you need to recognize someone or something that you have known all of your life ?
That would take no preparation. Maybe all the effort and preparation serves to allow the mind to believe it's ready even though it's unnecessary.
Can you actually decide to do something different to what just happened ? (trick question)
No. What is is of course. But I still resist it as above.
then there would be a different you reading this
This I think I get. All the conditions and causes of the past come together for an instant to create "me" in this moment.
Who knows. But one thing is for sure. If anything that has ever happened to you were to have happened differently, then there would be a different you reading this. It was all absolutely necessary to bring you to THIS.
Yes, this is the only way it could possibly be.
Ah yes, i felt on the verge for some time before it 'happened'. A good sign.
I hope so. Even though there's nothing that needs to be done to be ready I feel like I have done it. :)
report any new experiencing
I don't think I have anything new going on. I try to look into these things we have discussed and I just see confusion or uncertainty. Like a koan I suppose.

Thanks,
Tony

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Re: Tony1

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:09 pm

Good Morning Tony.
..other pursuits just don't seem satisfactory anymore.
Can you identify a story associated with this ?
only on an intellectual level.
How will you know when it is more than an intellectual level ?
I do this I think to try and escape discomfort or try to create comfort or pleasure.
How much is the discomfort and pleasure, actually physical ? ..and how much is the IDEA of them ?
It's not being content or okay with what is.
Is this a 'should' story ?
Whatever there is if there is something "better" to get or work toward that is what my mind does. And if things are what I want right now then there is worry about how to perpetuate it or about what's next.
So are you a victim of these stories ?
It comes from not accepting what is.
Do you think that it's possible to DO acceptance ?
I see that it's futile and pointless but that's what it is.
What is the physical reaction to seeing this ?
I do remember just feeling everything was okay and couldn't possibly be any different.
Is it possible that this still actually exists but is obscured by other stuff ?
That would take no preparation. Maybe all the effort and preparation serves to allow the mind to believe it's ready even though it's unnecessary.
Good one. Yes. ..and the same applies here, with this stuff. It is a recognition, re-cognizing, that will happen here.
I try to look into these things we have discussed and I just see confusion or uncertainty. Like a koan I suppose.
yes, it is like a koan. It's meant to lead you to a 'place' where your mind 'gives up' and stops hiding what is obvious.

Oh, and enjoy the confusion and uncertainty. It shows that we are pushing boundaries.

love

vince

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Re: Tony1

Postby Tony1 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:53 pm

Hi Vince.
Can you identify a story associated with this ?
Maybe the story that once I get this or see this then I will be happy or satisfied, then everything will be better. What I have now isn't good enough but this great thing will make everything okay. Maybe the story that things need to be okay or better is part of the problem.
How will you know when it is more than an intellectual level ?
I don't know. I really don't know what to expect. I imagine it will just be clear or make sense or be understood in a way that it just isn't now. Maybe it will just be the absence of struggle or resistance.
How much is the discomfort and pleasure, actually physical ? ..and how much is the IDEA of them ?
Occasionally there may be some minor physical discomfort or effect but almost all of it is created in the mind. Probably most of the physical sensations are a reaction to the mental state as opposed to any external circumstances.
Is this a 'should' story ?
Yes, definitely a should story. This shouldn't be happening or I should get this.
So are you a victim of these stories ?
No, I'm not a victim. No one or nothing else is doing this to me. I am doing this myself. My resistance to the present moment is my choice. My habit.
Do you think that it's possible to DO acceptance ?
I don't think you could "do" acceptance. Acceptance is more the absence of resistance. More just get out of the way and let things be or let go of the wanting them to be something else. I guess you could "do" remembering to let go instead of resisting.
What is the physical reaction to seeing this ?
Physical I'm not sure, I don't see much. I feel frustrated and a bit discouraged that this is happening but also encouraged that I am seeing it in a different way.
Is it possible that this still actually exists but is obscured by other stuff ?
Yes, it is possible. I never thought of it that way but I guess it's even likely. If its right there it must still be there but covered up. Maybe I saw it then lost sight of it again but it must still be right there.

Thanks,
Tony

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Re: Tony1

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:16 pm

Hi Tony,
Maybe the story that things need to be okay or better is part of the problem.
Instead of thinking in general terms ("part of the problem"), be specific with this. Make a list of all of the possible consequences of a story like this.
I don't know. I really don't know what to expect.
Ok, but there are stories (imaginings) about how it might be. Are you measuring what you have now, with these stories and arriving at the conclusion that it will happen at some time in the future ?
If you don't know, how do you know that you don't 'have it' right now ? Have you looked underneath all of these stories ?
If you LOOK right NOW, is everything ok ? Are there any actual discomforts being experienced right NOW ? Beneath the stories about the future ?
My resistance to the present moment is my choice. My habit.
It certainly is most likely a habit, but a choice ? If you could choose not to do it, then drop it right now. Drop the resistance NOW ! (Tell me if it vanishes.)
I guess you could "do" remembering to let go instead of resisting.
Let's look at this. An intention arises. An intention to remember to let go. Was that intention the result of us discussing resistance ? Was another condition that led to the thought (intention) the desire to 'get somewhere' on this path ? Was another condition the story that 'success' might just happen ? Were there (likely to be) many conditions that we are unaware of that led to this thought arising ?
Where do thoughts come from ? (where do they go when they are no longer there ?)
Can you choose which thoughts arrive ? How long that they will get attention for ?

love

vince

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Re: Tony1

Postby Tony1 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:46 pm

Vince,
Hello. Thank you for your reply. I am having to ponder these and search for answers. I hope it is okay if I take another day to get back to you.
Thanks,
Tony

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Re: Tony1

Postby Tony1 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:26 pm

Hi Vince.
Maybe the story that once I get this or see this then I will be happy or satisfied, then everything will be better. What I have now isn't good enough but this great thing will make everything okay. Maybe the story that things need to be okay or better is part of the problem.
Instead of thinking in general terms ("part of the problem"), be specific with this. Make a list of all of the possible consequences of a story like this.
Waiting for liberation to make things okay means I'm not okay with things now. Looking for liberation as this event that fixes things is probably wrong and may induce me to not recognize it. Striving to get or be somewhere else is unpleasant and may just get in the way.
Ok, but there are stories (imaginings) about how it might be. Are you measuring what you have now, with these stories and arriving at the conclusion that it will happen at some time in the future ?
Yes, I don't see it currently so if it is to occur it will be some point after now. When it does happen it will be at some other now but not this one.
If you don't know, how do you know that you don't 'have it' right now ?
In one sense I suppose I do since it is right here to be recognized. However, I still see how I suffer due to identifying with the sense of self which to me means I haven't realized the truth or seen through the illusion yet so I conclude that I don't have it.
Have you looked underneath all of these stories ?
When I look at these ideas I have a sense that I should be able to see through the illusion, any moment is as good as any other to see it. This now could just as easily be the time it is seen. But see what? How do I look? I look and just don't see.

If you LOOK right NOW, is everything ok ? Are there any actual discomforts being experienced right NOW ? Beneath the stories about the future ?
Right now is okay. This moment is comfortable. I see fear and anxiety and worries in thoughts and stories but this now is okay.

It certainly is most likely a habit, but a choice ? If you could choose not to do it, then drop it right now. Drop the resistance NOW ! (Tell me if it vanishes.)
No, it doesn't vanish. I can't will it away.
Let's look at this. An intention arises. An intention to remember to let go. Was that intention the result of us discussing resistance ?
In part yes, I would try to remember to do it because we had discussed it.
Was another condition that led to the thought (intention) the desire to 'get somewhere' on this path ?
Yes, if I believed that was the next step to be taken I would try to remember for that reason as well.
Was another condition the story that 'success' might just happen ?
Yes, same as above.
Were there (likely to be) many conditions that we are unaware of that led to this thought arising ?
Yes, probably many others over years of practice and other sources of conditioning as well. Even the idea that this is important to pursue is conditioned, many others would not believe so.
Where do thoughts come from ? (where do they go when they are no longer there ?)
I don't know. They are produced by the mind. They come out of the subconscious somewhere and pass into the realm of awareness. From the vantage point of awareness they come from nowhere, out of the void, and that is where they go.
Can you choose which thoughts arrive ?
It seems like I can sometimes but maybe I didn't really make the choice or have the first thought. Most thoughts are random and seemingly without cause or control. Some seem conditioned by those before them, like a train of thought. I can think "I want to think of a horse" then I can think of a horse like a train of thought but I don't know where the original thought to have the intention to think of a horse came from.
How long that they will get attention for ?
Some of the time, yes. The attention given to a thought can be prolonged or perpetuated and the thought allowed to persist or the attention can be taken away from the thought and placed somewhere else as in meditation.

Thanks,
Tony

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Re: Tony1

Postby Tony1 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:52 am

Hi Vince. Haven't heard from you in a while. Everything okay?
Tony

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Re: Tony1

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:13 pm

Haven't heard from you in a while. Everything okay?
Yes, everything is fine. Sorry, i've just been a little distracted (busy). Back now.
Waiting for liberation to make things okay means I'm not okay with things now.
..but a little further down the page you say "Right now is okay. This moment is comfortable. I see fear and anxiety and worries in thoughts and stories but this now is okay."
Does this mean that there is a story that says "I want a better ok than this one." ? ..or "this ok is too normal to be IT." ? ..or <you fill in this bit>
Looking for liberation as this event that fixes things
What is your reaction, when i say that it's more like an event that shows you that "things" (even shitty things) are perfectly fine ? (calling it an event is not quite right either - but it will do for the moment)
Maybe the story that once I get this or see this then I will be happy or satisfied, then everything will be better. What I have now isn't good enough but this great thing will make everything okay.
Can you SEE how this is the beginning of suffering ?
Do all stories (even ones about the past) intend future happiness ?
Do all stories pivot around a present. A present that is not examined. Not even an actual present, but a story about the present ?
Can you SEE that there is this NOW (this present moment) and then there is the noticing of it. ..and that by the time it is noticed it is already (milliseconds) in the past ?
This leads to a total inability to do anything about the present. It can't be changed. It is already finished.
If this is SEEn, i mean REALLY SEEn, then isn't it totally futile to bring anything except a willing acceptance to it ?
Is it possible that if an attitude of willing acceptance prevails then the experiencing of NOW will be different ? (to how you now remember it used to be.)

love

vince


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