Would like a guide please...

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Daisy
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Would like a guide please...

Postby Daisy » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:42 pm

Hello,

I posted previously asking for Elena to be my guide, however, she may not be available since I have not received a response. I would be grateful if someone would agree to guide me.

I have been a seeker of truth for as long as I can remember. The seeking really took hold of me in the last 10-12 years after becoming familiar with the work of Byron Katie. Since then, I have read and watched so many books and videos from all kinds of teachers...Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti, Jeff Foster, Rupert Spira, Francis Lucille, Jan Frazier,...the list goes on! Needless to say, I have what I consider to be an intellectual understanding of 'no-self' and at times, have felt what I would consider a glimpse...maybe. But then I wonder, if I'm not sure, is it really a glimpse?

Anyway, I am so ready to stop this seeking! I'm hoping someone can help me. Thank you in advance,
Daisy

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Vivien
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:26 am

Dear Daisy,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

But before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

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If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Daisy
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Daisy » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:08 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for agreeing to be my guide. I agree to the ground rules you have listed.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self? How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
Although I don't expect that my daily activities will change much, I do expect there to be a perspective shift that may change the way my normal day is experienced. I expect that once I see through the illusion of the self, I will experience a lightness, a calmness, and a sense of wonder. I will know that the appearance of 'others' is just that - an appearance...just as the 'self' is. I imagine that this knowledge would result in less judgment about others and their actions and in more compassion. I expect that the knowledge of 'no self' would also lessen or eliminate concerns/fears about physical health, safety, and death. Also, I expect that once I see through the illusion of the self, that the knowledge will remain...which differs from the glimpses I mentioned, that seemed to come and go.

I hope this answers your questions...they are the only expectations that come to mind.

In Gratitude,
Daisy

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Vivien
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:32 am

Dear Daisy,

Thank you for your honest list about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
Although I don't expect that my daily activities will change much, I do expect there to be a perspective shift that may change the way my normal day is experienced.
Yes, this is a good starting point. Life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.
I expect that once I see through the illusion of the self, I will experience a lightness, a calmness, and a sense of wonder.
‘Lightness’, ‘calmness’ or a ‘sense of wonder’ are states, similarly like happiness or peace are states, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a State to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Furthermore, there is no ‘you’ that could see through the illusion of the self or experience ‘lightness’ or anything. Seeing through the illusion can happen, but without an owner (you).
I will know that the appearance of 'others' is just that - an appearance...just as the 'self' is.
Similarly, there is no ‘you’ that could know anything. Furthermore, knowing is an intellectual ‘thing’. Seeing no self is not an intellectual understanding. (see above) But yes, after seeing no-self, it is also seen that there are no ‘other selves’ either.
I imagine that this knowledge would result in less judgment about others and their actions and in more compassion.
This may or may not happen. Judgement (alongside with many other things) is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still can arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
I expect that the knowledge of 'no self' would also lessen or eliminate concerns/fears about physical health, safety, and death.
This also may or may not happen, because concerns and fears about health, safety and death are also the result of a lifelong conditioning.
Also, I expect that once I see through the illusion of the self, that the knowledge will remain...which differs from the glimpses I mentioned, that seemed to come and go.
I would rather say that once it is seen that the self is just an illusion, it cannot be un-seen (like Santa). However, it does not mean that identification with the I-thought won’t arise again and again. But every time it is investigated, it is seen that the word ‘I’ does not point to anything ‘real’.

So what I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Daisy
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Daisy » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:26 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for the quick reply! I read your response and the biggest reaction I must admit is one of resistance and slight disappointment.
Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.
I know that believing that there will be some constant happier, more peaceful state is unrealistic, but if I'm being honest, something in me did hope for that. Not that my life isn't basically happy or peaceful now, just that there was something hoping that there would be some dramatic difference. After reading so many stories about other's awakenings and the dramatic changes they describe, I think I started to believe that those changes were part and parcel of the realization. And in reading your response, I could feel myself wanting to resist believing that there wouldn't be some dramatic shift. The disappointment was somewhat expected, but the resistance was a bigger surprise to me.
This may or may not happen. Judgement (alongside with many other things) is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.
This makes sense, but again, my belief was that in the absence of a belief of the self that the conditioning would fall away rather quickly. When you mention that the falling can last until the end of the organism,there was a disappointment experienced. I can see that my expectations are unrealistic. I do think that is the result of much of my previous reading and studying. I can see how these expectations could hold me back. They keep me focused on a some future, abiding state.

I am looking forward to beginning the exercises! Love,
Daisy

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Vivien
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:26 am

Dear Daisy,
the biggest reaction I must admit is one of resistance and slight disappointment.
Thank you for your honesty. There is nothing wrong with resistance or disappointments. It just shows how strong the identification with this supposed ‘self’. But this is what we are going to work on and investigate, whether there is really a ‘me’ somewhere hidden behind the skin, or this is just an unexamined assumption.
Not that my life isn't basically happy or peaceful now, just that there was something hoping that there would be some dramatic difference.
Yes, I totally get what you say. I also whished for this. :) As I mentioned being unhappy and not peaceful is the result of conditionings and other unexamined beliefs. So here, we mainly examine the belief in the separate entity ‘me’, however there are a huge, intricately detailed web of beliefs about ‘ourselves’ and the ‘whole life’ in general. After seeing no-self, other beliefs are gradually starting to be seen through. And this is what can last at the end of the organism. So seeing no-self is just the first step.
After reading so many stories about other's awakenings and the dramatic changes they describe, I think I started to believe that those changes were part and parcel of the realization.
Oh yes. This is very common.
And in reading your response, I could feel myself wanting to resist believing that there wouldn't be some dramatic shift.
For some the shift is dramatic, for others it is gentle and gradual. There are no two similar processes. So comparing just can be a huge hindrance in not to see what is here, right now.
I do think that is the result of much of my previous reading and studying. I can see how these expectations could hold me back. They keep me focused on a some future, abiding state.
Yes, very good observations. Good to see this. Every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

An expectation is nothing more than a mental concept. In order to compare it with the current experience, the current experience needs to be conceptualized. As a result, there ‘are’ two mentally fabricated constructs that can be matched up, with a ‘result’ of putting a label of either “this is liberation” or “this is not” onto the experience.

But you don’t have to do anything with these expectations. Don’t try to push them away, change them, manipulate them. Don’t do anything with them, don’t touch them, just observe them. These are nothing more than the content of arising thoughts, here and now. That’s all, nothing more, nothing serious, nothing ‘real’.
I am looking forward to beginning the exercises!
OK then, let’s start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Daisy
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Daisy » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:35 am

Dear Vivien,
The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.
If I am to answer from direct experience only, then 99.9% of my time is spent experiencing the 'I' described above. As I said, I've had glimpses where I felt that I was what was aware of everything, and at the same time, there was no distance between everything and what I am. But for the vast majority of the time, I feel contained in this body.

I don't feel like I create or perform my thoughts or sensations. I notice that thoughts and sensations just appear. It often seems as though one affects the other. For example, a sensation can cause a thought or vice versa.
Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?
Yes, this is how I feel currently.
What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?
'I' points to this mind that appears to have individual thoughts (mainly about itself and how the rest of the world affects it). The thoughts appear to be different from the thoughts of other individuals. This 'I' is not privy to the thoughts of other individuals. Thoughts of this 'I' can direct the body to behave in certain ways or to take certain actions. Thoughts of this 'I' do not appear to have direct control over bodies other than this one.

What makes this body mine is that a thought appearing in my mind 'lift your right arm' can be translated into movement of this body. However, that thought is not translated into movement of other bodies. I have thought about 'where does the thought come from?'...I don't make them up; they just appear. Also, do I just take ownership of movements of this body by saying 'I did it'? But when the thought arrives first and then the movement, it does appear that 'I' have done it. This combination of thought and physical movement makes it feel as though this body is mine, and I am my body. Also, if this body is not feeling well, 'I' seems to feel it. However, when another body gets hurt or is not feeling well, 'I' does not feel it.

Also, I never experience being anywhere that the body is not...except maybe in dreams. However, there is usually a representation of this body in my dreams...I think...

Love,
Daisy

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Vivien
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:03 am

Dear Daisy,

You wrote some interesting points that we will examine later.
I have thought about 'where does the thought come from?'...I don't make them up; they just appear. Also, do I just take ownership of movements of this body by saying 'I did it'? But when the thought arrives first and then the movement, it does appear that 'I' have done it.
This is a good starting point, we will investigate this later in more detail.

But first, we try to find the ‘I’, the ‘owner’ of the body.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.
But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.

In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
What is found, what comes up?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Daisy » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:38 pm

Dear Vivien,

I have been giving this exercise much attention. If I am in the space of feeling that I am my body, when I search for the 'I', I cannot find it in my limbs or other parts. I asked myself, 'if your arm were cut off, would there be less of a sense of you'. The answer is no. I did this for several parts of the body. The sense of 'I' seems to come from behind the eyes. If you were to ask me to directly experience with my senses, I cannot. However, if what I am is the brain, the head could be opened to sense the brain directly. If the brain and the 'I' are one in the same, then direct experience of the brain is possible. I don't know how to distinguish whether or not the 'I' and the brain are one in the same.

I have done a lot of research regarding NDE's, and experiences of individuals seem to indicate that they exist outside the body at times of near death. This would suggest that the body does not house the 'I'. However, this is not my direct experience. Only anecdotal evidence.

I know that the 'correct' answer would be to say that I can't find the 'I' anywhere in the body, however, it would not be an honest answer for me yet, and I want to do this honestly so that I can have a clear seeing. If I skim over this, as I have in the past, it would be pretending that I have the knowing that 'I' am not in the body...and I don't yet.

I hope this makes sense, and I hope you can help me see. Love,
Fran

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Vivien
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:25 am

Dear Daisy,

You did a very good LOOKing :)
I know that the 'correct' answer would be to say that I can't find the 'I' anywhere in the body, however, it would not be an honest answer for me yet, and I want to do this honestly so that I can have a clear seeing. If I skim over this, as I have in the past, it would be pretending that I have the knowing that 'I' am not in the body...and I don't yet.
I appreciate your honesty. Honestly is the way how you can help yourself to see.
However, if what I am is the brain, the head could be opened to sense the brain directly. If the brain and the 'I' are one in the same, then direct experience of the brain is possible. I don't know how to distinguish whether or not the 'I' and the brain are one in the same.
OK, this is an intellectual, logical deduction. Thoughts arise and suggest possible answers. Because thoughts always try to interpret and assign meaning to everything.

But how all of this known?
Where are ‘you’ exactly in the brain?
Just because the head can be cut up so the brain inside can be seen is a proof that ‘you’ are in there?
Does the pure sensation of seeing the brain directly is a proof that ‘you’ are the brain?

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Daisy
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Daisy » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:04 am

Hi Vivien,

I have given much thought to thought :-)
Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
I cannot find the origin of thoughts. They just seem to arrive from nothingness and go back into nothingness. No, I cannot stop a thought in the middle...it's as though it arrives all at once. No, I cannot predict the next thought. I don't know what the next thought is until it arrives. I wish I could choose not to have negative thoughts...but they just arrive also. For many years, I have practiced a method called The Work (of Byron Katie) for questioning stressful thoughts. This seems to lessen the impact of negative thoughts. But am 'I' the one who decides to practice The Work...from where does the thought to do The Work come? Again, from nothingness.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
I cannot find an 'I' that generates the thoughts....so I don't know who or what thinks/creates them. I feel as though I am an observer of the thoughts. I cannot find the thinker. I don't think that I think the thoughts, but I don't know if I am being thought. What would it mean that I am being thought...I guess that the 'I' is only a thought? I'm not sure that I see that yet. Right now, I'm feeling more like some entity that is just watching. As I said, I feel like the observer of the thoughts. The 'I' that thinks is definitely only a thought in my experience since I don't have direct sensorial experience of a thinker...that is very interesting.

Love,
Daisy

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Vivien
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:30 am

Dear Daisy,
But am 'I' the one who decides to practice The Work...from where does the thought to do The Work come?
Good question :)
So, are ‘you’ the 'thing' that decides practising The Work, or decision just happens by itself?
I feel as though I am an observer of the thoughts.
How is this felt, with which of the 5 senses?
Where is this observer exactly?
What would it mean that I am being thought...I guess that the 'I' is only a thought?
Observe the ‘I’-thought during the day as often as possible.
Is it possible that ‘you’ are just a thought?
Right now, I'm feeling more like some entity that is just watching.
How is this felt, with which of the 5 senses?
Can it be felt at all?
Or this is just the content of an arising thought that suggests “I’m feeling that some entity is wathcing”?
I feel like the observer of the thoughts.
Is it REALLY felt, or is it believed?
Find this observer. Where is it?

--

You’ve missed some questions from my previous post, so I’ve copied them here for you. All questions are pointers where to look.
Daisy: However, if what I am is the brain, the head could be opened to sense the brain directly. If the brain and the 'I' are one in the same, then direct experience of the brain is possible. I don't know how to distinguish whether or not the 'I' and the brain are one in the same.
OK, this is an intellectual, logical deduction. Thoughts arise and suggest possible answers. Because thoughts always try to interpret and assign meaning to everything.

But how all of this known?
Where are ‘you’ exactly in the brain?
Just because the head can be cut up so the brain inside can be seen is a proof that ‘you’ are in there?
Does the pure sensation of seeing the brain directly is a proof that ‘you’ are the brain?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Daisy
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Daisy » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:47 pm

Hi Vivien,
So, are ‘you’ the 'thing' that decides practising The Work, or decision just happens by itself?
It feels like the thought to practice appears, then other thoughts...yes or no thoughts...appear. Then action happens or doesn't. So, I'd have to say the decision happens by itself...and then the thought 'I decided to do it' comes in and owns it...like there's an 'I' that did it. So tricky and subtle.
How is this felt, with which of the 5 senses?
Where is this observer exactly?
Good question. I would say that a thought appears often as a voice that sounds like mine...but the voice feels like it's in my head. No one else seems to hear it. But when I look really closely, I can't say it's in the head for sure. The only thing I can say is that there is a hearing of a voice that sounds like mine. I can't put a location to the observer. It seems not to have one...there's just an awareness that I can't pinpoint in space. I can't find a center...or a beginning or end.
How is this felt, with which of the 5 senses?
Where is this observer exactly?
The thoughts are heard...but even though they are in my voice, there is no vocalization, so is it my ears that hear? I don't think so. As far as the observer, I can't find the observer using the 5 senses. It's so weird, I can't find an observer anywhere, yet observing is definitely happening. There is observing of the typing of these words. If I pay close attention, I don't even know where the words are coming from...so weird...they are just appearing and being observed. It's funny really.
Observe the ‘I’-thought during the day as often as possible.
Is it possible that ‘you’ are just a thought?
The thought just came to think about my thought that 'I' need to wake up and take my daughter to school. That 'I' is definitely referring to this body/mind...that it needs to wake up and get in the car. But where did the thought come from? It feels like it comes from my head...I think because of conditioning that I'm doing the thinking, but when I really look...I have no idea where it comes from. And is there some separate mind? When I observe thoughts coming in, I can't find a container called 'my mind'. I actually can't find a mind...just the thought appearing. If it is just the thought appearing, and I don't do it, and I don't know where it comes from, what is the 'I'? I keep coming back to that which witnesses the thought, and I cannot locate the witness using my 5 senses...except that there seems to be a hearing...but again, not necessarily from the ears...wow, I keep going in circles! The 'I' is definitely referenced in thought. Is the meaning of 'I' just another thought...a conditioned one? Just like the word 'pen' is used to mean the thing I write with that has ink...but it doesn't matter what you call it...it still is what it is. But that's different, because a pen can be sensed with the 5 senses. I'm back to the idea that the body can be sensed with the 5 senses too...so if I am defining the body as 'I', it can be sensed. But that brings me back to the knowing I'm not the limbs, etc...and wondering if I'm the brain. I know I'm missing something. But if I could cut open the head and observe the brain, wouldn't I be the observer of it...not it? In the subject-object world, I can't be what I am observing. So there's no way to pinpoint myself as an object. The second I do that, I know I'm not that...because I'm what's observing that. It really feels like a wild goose chase...I keep coming up empty. So even though, the 'I' has been used to point to the body/mind...it can't be that. It does appear in thought only...I can't find it anywhere else as a subject that I could observe.
How is this felt, with which of the 5 senses?
Can it be felt at all?
Or this is just the content of an arising thought that suggests “I’m feeling that some entity is wathcing”?
A thought appears, then another one saying 'I observed that thought'. Yes, it's all just thoughts. There is nothing tangible.
Is it REALLY felt, or is it believed?
Find this observer. Where is it?
I can see that it is believed. But what a strong belief! It seems to reinforce itself with more thoughts...a constant flood of thoughts about 'I' and what everything means to the 'I'. The 'I' is made to be the center, because most thoughts seem to be about it.
You’ve missed some questions from my previous post
Oops...sorry!
OK, this is an intellectual, logical deduction. Thoughts arise and suggest possible answers. Because thoughts always try to interpret and assign meaning to everything.

But how all of this known?
Where are ‘you’ exactly in the brain?
Just because the head can be cut up so the brain inside can be seen is a proof that ‘you’ are in there?
Does the pure sensation of seeing the brain directly is a proof that ‘you’ are the brain?
No, seeing the brain or observing the brain would actually be proof that it is not me...as I said above. If I can observe something, how can it be me...I'm the one observing. Unless subject and object are one...but if that is the case, then how could 'I' differentiate which things are me. If subject and object are one, wouldn't I be everything I observe? Could it be that subject and object are the same in only one instance...i.e., the brain...but not in all other instances...i.e., the rest of the world. And where would be the proof of that? No, there is no proof that there is an 'I' in the brain just because I can see it...I can see my pen...that doesn't mean there is an 'I' in the pen. So somewhere along the way, 'I' thoughts appeared and were given meaning that was believed and reinforced. I can see that...but very dimly...what is holding me back from a clear seeing? Is it belief? Yes, it's a belief that I am missing something...that there is some piece of evidence that I am overlooking, because I want to get this...I'm suspicious of myself...Lol! But again, these are just all thoughts arising. Boy, I really do feel like I am going in circles! Am I getting anywhere?...I just laughed at that question...it reinforces the 'I'. It's so subtle how every thought reinforces it.

Vivien, Do your thoughts reinforce the I? Is it something you've seen through and in the seeing through the thoughts change?

Your questions are excellent. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this with me. I feel like I'm on the verge of something...and of course, 'I' just used 'I' and 'me' as if 'i' exist as an entity :-) So unrelenting, these 'I' thoughts.

Love,
Daisy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:43 pm

Dear Daisy,
The thoughts are heard...but even though they are in my voice, there is no vocalization, so is it my ears that hear? I don't think so. As far as the observer, I can't find the observer using the 5 senses. It's so weird, I can't find an observer anywhere, yet observing is definitely happening.
“The thoughts are heard” – suggest another thought.
“The thoughts are in my voice” – suggest another thought.
” It feels like it comes from my head” – suggest another thought.

Yes, there is NO observer, yet observing IS happening.
In the subject-object world, I can't be what I am observing. So there's no way to pinpoint myself as an object.
Here is the trick. There is an ASSUMPTION that there is a subject-object world. So ‘I’ cannot be the object, ‘I’ must be the subject.

Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject at all times. Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about ‘me’ indicate an entity, or a ‘driver’ of any kind in ‘reality’? Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces that if there is an action then there must be a doer or a driver? Go to the actual experience and check it.

But is there really a subject at all?
Or seeing happen, hearing happen, tasting happen, touching/feeling happen, observing happen, noticing thought happen but WITHOUT anything (subject) that would perform all these actions?

Is there really a subject (me, ear, observer) that is doing thing, or doing just happens by itself, without an owner(you, ear, observer)?

I can't find a container called 'my mind'. I actually can't find a mind...just the thought appearing. If it is just the thought appearing, and I don't do it, and I don't know where it comes from,
Very good observations.
I'm the one observing. Unless subject and object are one...but if that is the case, then how could 'I' differentiate which things are me. If subject and object are one, wouldn't I be everything I observe? Could it be that subject and object are the same in only one instance...i.e., the brain...but not in all other instances...i.e., the rest of the world. And where would be the proof of that?
Dear Daisy, these are just contents of thoughts. Thoughts ALWAYS try to interpret and assign meaning to everything. This is just a story.
but the voice feels like it's in my head. No one else seems to hear it.
OK, let’s examine a body then.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this with me.
You’re more than welcome :)

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Daisy
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Re: Would like a guide please...

Postby Daisy » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:58 pm

Hi Vivien,
Does the habit of referring back to thoughts about ‘me’ indicate an entity, or a ‘driver’ of any kind in ‘reality’? Or have you merely accepted the apparent implication that language produces that if there is an action then there must be a doer or a driver? Go to the actual experience and check it.
Yes, it's just a habit. I can see that. The 'me' or 'driver' is just a thought. It's an assumption that there has to be a doer.
But is there really a subject at all?
Or seeing happen, hearing happen, tasting happen, touching/feeling happen, observing happen, noticing thought happen but WITHOUT anything (subject) that would perform all these actions?
There is just the happening. I can see that. My mind comes right in and says, 'but you are separate...an individual...you have a different perspective than others'. But I can see that these are all just thoughts.
OK, let’s examine a body then.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?
With my eyes closed...
No. I cannot know how tall the body is or what it's weight or volume is. There is just a tactile sensation, but not the feel of a boundary between the body and the clothing. Again, no feeling of boundary between the body and the chair...just a tactile sensation...and the sensation tells me nothing about the body. Cannot sense a shape or form to the body or distinguish inside from outside. I do not sense the body at all in the actual experience. I can see that without the sense of sight, there is no experience of the body. Any sensations are singular...I don't know if this is the right way to describe it, but it's not a sensation of the body and something else...it's just one sensation that doesn't even include the knowledge of the body. I see that. I know that this exercise is supposed to be pointing something out to me about the 'I'...but I'm not sure what it is. Is it that the 'I' still seems to exist when there is no sensing of the body, so how could the 'I' be the body? or am I missing the point?

Love,
Daisy


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