The "I" doesn't know

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Hypnodean
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

The "I" doesn't know

Postby Hypnodean » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:02 am

Looking for some assistance please,

BACKGROUND STORY OF “I”:
41yo man searching since teenager. I had a personal guru for 15 years who transformed my life. I practice and teach mindfulness. I began learning non-dual teachings last year and have never taken to anything before with the passion and zest that I have about awakening.

EXPERIENCES:
Many
(For at least 6 months, I have not experienced any suffering – except the suffering of not being home again).

INTELLECTUALLY:
I get it and because I get it, I am a prisoner to the “I”, as long as I remain identified to it. There is nothing that I say, feel or do that I actually believe. It is very clear that the “I” is fiction and its energy has nowhere to go and it is also clear that this itself is an idea/concept.

WHY I ENGAGED IN THIS FORUM:
In my most recent experience, I felt without any doubt that I had discovered with both clarity and simplicity the truth of who I really am. Even though I had many previous experiences, I felt that this one was NOT an experience but absolute reality. However, it only lasted 4 days and then I gradually became re-identified with my mind and the old patterns/habits took over again.

I feel that I know my true nature because I have tasted and experienced it. I see that there is nothing the mind can do that can even come close to this discovery, yet I am still identified? The re-emerging of old patterns has created doubt and I am no longer certain if my experience was the TRUTH or if it was simply another experience to let go of?

I am looking for the right guide to stabilize or help integrate the final understanding (if there is such a thing)...........or something like that...

Thank you in advance for your time, patience and understanding.

User avatar
Josephkoudelka
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 12:30 am
Location: Ames, Iowa USA
Contact:

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Josephkoudelka » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:43 am

Hi Hypnodean. I am available to explore and resolve this dilemma with you.

Describe what expectations you have regarding a "final understanding". This will give is a good base to proceed with our investigation of no self and it's ramifications for life lived free from notion of self.

Joseph ♥

User avatar
Hypnodean
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Hypnodean » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:18 pm

Thank you Joseph,
Expectations might have been influenced by my most recent experience:
I expect to be 100% sure about my true self,
I don't expect to be basking in this understanding 24hours a day,
I expect that I can return to the awareness of true self without a struggle,
I expect with the realization, I will be less or not identified with the mind (although I believe this will fluctuate)

That's all for now,
Peace & Love
Dean

User avatar
Josephkoudelka
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 12:30 am
Location: Ames, Iowa USA
Contact:

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:07 am

I expect to be 100% sure about my true self
States come and go. Doubt may arise, we are not able to control or choose our thoughts. Think about it, there is no self... who would be controlling thinking. That said, no self can and must be seen thoroughly. Once seen, the understanding can be returned to endlessly. Doubts disappear every time we look.

I have the standard guidelines that need to be reviewed and acknowledged so we may continue. I look forward to sharing this exploration with you Dean.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

http://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c


1. You agree to post at least once a day.

2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to

3. Responses require your utmost honesty

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-
winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Joseph ♥

User avatar
Hypnodean
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Hypnodean » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:31 am

Agree

User avatar
Josephkoudelka
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 12:30 am
Location: Ames, Iowa USA
Contact:

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:29 am

This "I", who knows it? Does the "I" know you?

User avatar
Hypnodean
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Hypnodean » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:41 pm

After several hours of investigation and contemplation, I feel that the "I" does not know me. In fact the "I" often believes that it is me.

User avatar
Josephkoudelka
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 12:30 am
Location: Ames, Iowa USA
Contact:

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:49 pm

Does a thought know you? Or do you know a thought?

User avatar
Hypnodean
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Hypnodean » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:26 pm

A thought believes it knows me, but really doesn't know me at all.
The 'me' perceives thoughts.

User avatar
Josephkoudelka
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 12:30 am
Location: Ames, Iowa USA
Contact:

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:14 am

A thought believes it knows me, but really doesn't know me at all.
Now look again. be mindful of this moment Now. Notice you are aware. Notice whatever thoughts arise. Just witness them without interacting. Does a thought actually know anything? Or is it just an inert statement? Does one thought know another thought?

User avatar
Hypnodean
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Hypnodean » Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:35 am

Does a thought actually know anything?
It appears not. Some thoughts were seen to show facts, but on deeper investigation, these facts were based on memory. For example a thought " I need to put petrol in my car" may appear as a fact and may appear in the moment of NOW, however the thought does not know anything, it just regurgitates information.
Does one thought know another thought?
They create an appearance as though they are linked. E.g. Following on from previous example, the next thought may be "....therefor I need to find a petrol station". This does not mean one thought knows the other, but it appeared like a movement or arising of several independent thoughts that formed some sort of sequence or pattern.

EXPERIENCE: This examination created a "letting go" of thinking effect and for a number of minutes there was a subtle experience of "life just happening independent of any thinking"

User avatar
Josephkoudelka
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 12:30 am
Location: Ames, Iowa USA
Contact:

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:46 pm

Some thoughts were seen to show facts, but on deeper investigation, these facts were based on memory.
Every single thought is a memory. Language is learned and remembered. Forms are named during this process, and remembered. Further, concepts are developed and remembered. From time to time they may be revised to incorporate new conceptual knowledge. Words and remembered experience are the basis of our conditioning.

With this conditioning a conceptual model of a separate self is created. A separate self is a concept.

How could you be a concept?
This does not mean one thought knows the other, but it appeared like a movement or arising of several independent thoughts that formed some sort of sequence or pattern.
In the present moment, is a thought actually connected to another thought?

Notice that a thought remembered is only another thought in the present moment. There is no time other than now when a thought occurs. Thought cannot be grasped.

Who or what knows thought?
..."for a number of minutes there was a subtle experience of "life just happening independent of any thinking""
Now, mindful of the present moment, notice life just happening. With or without thought, life is just happening. Is life without thought better than life with thought? How can this judgement(another thought) be valid from the standpoint o the present moment?

User avatar
Hypnodean
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Hypnodean » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:20 pm

I appreciate and understand your points but need a little more time to experience or integrate them on a deeper level, before I respond, thank you.

User avatar
Josephkoudelka
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 12:30 am
Location: Ames, Iowa USA
Contact:

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:35 pm

Ok. We can follow up tomorrow.

User avatar
Hypnodean
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:41 pm

Re: The "I" doesn't know

Postby Hypnodean » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:59 am

Every single thought is a memory
I can verify this through experience, but when I stop trying to do so, I re-identify with the thought again.
With this conditioning a conceptual model of a separate self is created. A separate self is a concept.

How could you be a concept?
When I dive into uninterrupted investigation, I can experience this understanding/realization but it does not last.
Who or what knows thought?
I am experiencing more and more moments each day where I know that - thoughts just come and go. I have been searching for the 'who or what that knows this' and I have had more glimpses into the reality that it does not exist.
Is life without thought better than life with thought? How can this judgement(another thought) be valid from the standpoint o the present moment?
When I am deeply entrenched in the present moment, thought or no-thought becomes irrelevant or insignificant.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests