Need a guide please

[thompson7]

Hey, ive been been meditating for the past 11 years and reading a huge amount of books re mysticysm for slightly longer. I feel I've read so much and have so many expectations of this path that my understanding is very much intellectual and wouldn't mind a bit of a shove in the right direction (or at least something pointing that way).

Thanks for reading

Thompson

[Vivien]

Dear Thompson,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

But before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

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If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Hi Vivian, Thanks for helping. I have read through the introduction and understand all the ground rules.

these questions all bring up similar answers, but here goes:

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?

I expect to stop wanting to find something, to stop attaching such strong meaning to arbitrary things.

How will Life change?

I hope that life will be a little less stressful and to be able to see with greater clarity. Hopefully have less hindsight moments like "what the hell did I do that for?!" - less caught up in emotions with a clearer perspective.

How will you change?

I will have fully perceived the absence of self - but I don't think I will be much different, aside from being less invested in the emotional extremes.

What will be different?

I think there will be differences in most things I do; interactions with other people, work, shopping etc. But I don't think these will be particularly extreme differences. Life just easier. Less vivid emotions with more vivid awareness.

Apologies, this is not in great detail. All of the expectations I had were very similar and reasonably interchangeable for each question.

Also everyone calls me tom! I should have signed the first post as such.

Thanks again

Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

Thank you for your list about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?

I expect to stop wanting to find something, to stop attaching such strong meaning to arbitrary things.

Yes, these are reasonable expectations, however it is important to know that both seeking (wanting to find something) and attaching strong meaning is the result of a lifetime of habit (conditioning).

At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

I hope that life will be a little less stressful and to be able to see with greater clarity.

Life is already stress-less, only thoughts suggest otherwise. :) Life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.

Hopefully have less hindsight moments like "what the hell did I do that for?!" - less caught up in emotions with a clearer perspective.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still can arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

I will have fully perceived the absence of self –

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. (I don’t know whether you have this expectation, but I thought it might be useful to mention it).

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a State to ‘abide in’. It's not.

but I don't think I will be much different, aside from being less invested in the emotional extremes.

Yes, this is quite reasonable too, however, emotions and emotional extremes are also the result of X years of conditioning, so it is quite likely that they won’t go away in an instant, just because seeing through the self happened.

I think there will be differences in most things I do; interactions with other people, work, shopping etc. But I don't think these will be particularly extreme differences. Life just easier. Less vivid emotions with more vivid awareness.

This is already covered above. Interaction with others might be different (or not). Life cannot become easier, life is as it is. However the mental labels and thoughts about life can be seen through.

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Hi vivian, ive taken on some overtime this evening so im unable to reply fully this evening. Im actully quite excited to give a response and ill be giving this my full attention tommorrow daytime. Sorry to delay things.



Tom

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

Thank you for letting me know. I am looking forward to your reply.

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Yes, these are reasonable expectations, however it is important to know that both seeking (wanting to find something) and attaching strong meaning is the result of a lifetime of habit (conditioning).

At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Hmm... I am initially disappointed by this (my ideas being unrealistic). I have considered myself as on a particular path for a long time now. Your words lead to the ideas that there has been no path and no me walking it - as though the desire to see this "end" has blocked me from actually seeing it. But this is still intellectual - im thinking this not seeing it. This seeking seems to form a large part of my identity and still wants to be validated and not told it is unrealistic. Although, along with the disappointment there is this small sensation of relief - because as much as I am attached to my particular world-view, it hasn't got me where I thought it would. This was much smaller and more brief than the disappointment, but as I have looked at and written down the above the disappointment has faded, but is still there.

Life is already stress-less, only thoughts suggest otherwise. :) Life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.

If life is already stress-less then I must have been living something else! aside from this everything else here seems to fit with my existing perspective.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still can arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

Reading this calms down the sense of struggle within, slightly.

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. (I don’t know whether you have this expectation, but I thought it might be useful to mention it).

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a State to ‘abide in’. It's not.

I am sceptical of most things, but I would say there is defiantly some unrealistic expectations of when I am "through". I am a great researcher and love to study everything about something before I do it, but learning so much about something instead of just looking/doing is not the greatest course of action it appears

Yes, this is quite reasonable too, however, emotions and emotional extremes are also the result of X years of conditioning, so it is quite likely that they won’t go away in an instant, just because seeing through the self happened.

again, disappointment coupled with a slight relief.

Life cannot become easier

A little frustration felt when reading this, which looks quite childish when reading the rest here.

Tom

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

Your words lead to the ideas that there has been no path and no me walking it - as though the desire to see this "end" has blocked me from actually seeing it. But this is still intellectual - im thinking this not seeing it.

That’s all right. This is what we are going to work on :)

This was much smaller and more brief than the disappointment, but as I have looked at and written down the above the disappointment has faded, but is still there.

There is nothing wrong with disappointment. ‘Disappointment’ is just a mental label attached to other thought, and when this label is not seen only as a label, but it is believed to be ‘real’ then associated bodily sensations might emerge that are labelled as such-and-such emotion.

If life is already stress-less then I must have been living something else!

:) I get your point. We can examine this later if you wish. Life, as anything else, is completely neutral. Only mental labels suggest otherwise.

I am sceptical of most things, but I would say there is defiantly some unrealistic expectations of when I am "through". I am a great researcher and love to study everything about something before I do it, but learning so much about something instead of just looking/doing is not the greatest course of action it appears

Good to see this. The whole point of closely examining expectations is that all expectation is in the way of seeing what IS. All expectation can be a hindrance, an obstacle. But nothing needs to be done with these expectations, it is enough to see that they are nothing more than arising thoughts here and now. Nothing more, nothing serious.


If you are ready, we can start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Hi again Vivian, I am ready so....

If you are ready, we can start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.

I think its more like a mind in a body.

The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body.
Also 'I' have control over this body.

This doesnt fit for me, Looks more to me like the "I" is a sense of identity rather than my body.

Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.

While I can choose to be more focused on a particular sense they are all on together, all the time. Cant turn them off, can only try to limit or remove the stimulus. like muting something or turning away from an unpleasant scene

This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

The body will die, but thats not me. I dont have a opinon of an afterlife but I dont think death is the end of everything.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

yes pretty much.

What does the word 'I' point to?

Some kind of mental lump made of awareness, memories, hopes and stratagies and, well loads of ideas essentially.

What makes this body ‘yours’?

My awareness can make the body move and feels located within it.

What makes this body ‘you’?

Again, I dont really that only the body is me. "me" feels like something in my mind that is harder to grasp.

Thanks again for the guidance,

Tom

[Vivien]

Hi Tom,

Looks more to me like the "I" is a sense of identity rather than my body.

Yes, this is a good observation. The ‘I’ is a SENSE of identity, and the question is whether is there a REAL ‘I’ that this sense is pointing to…
Whether is there anything BEHIND this sense, or is it just a sense, nothing more… an unexamined assumption...

I think its more like a mind in a body.
….Again, I dont really that only the body is me. "me" feels like something in my mind that is harder to grasp.

OK, so now we try to find the ‘owner’ of the body, the ‘thing’ that is supposed to be in the ‘mind’.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.
But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
What is found, what comes up?

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?

Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
What is found, what comes up?

I see the process of thoughts of reading, some kind of awareness watching it and the physical sensation of the table and chair im sat/leaning on. The thoughts and the bodily sensations are much easier to look at opposed to the awareness, but the awareness is constant where the others are so changeable. This is where I seem to find my sense of self but it is quiet when looked at on its own and amplified hugely when thoughts, emotions etc appear.

The awareness definitely feels like its in my head. But only kind of feels like its there, I cant find it to look at like I cant grab the palm of my hand (with the same hand!), Like its behind wherever im looking.

[thompson7]

I forgot to say, I don't finish work til 8pm and by the time I've got back and done whatever I have to do its pretty late. So I don't mind If you cant post until the next day etc.

Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

I forgot to say, I don't finish work til 8pm and by the time I've got back and done whatever I have to do its pretty late. So I don't mind If you cant post until the next day etc.

I seems that we are in different time zones. I’m in UTC+10 time zone, in Australia. So when I post it is daytime for me.

I see the process of thoughts of reading, some kind of awareness watching it and the physical sensation of the table and chair im sat/leaning on.

What is this ‘I’ that supposedly see the process of thought of reading?
Are the thoughts doing the reading?
Can a thought read?

What is the ‘I’ that is sitting?
Where is this ‘I’ exactly?
Try to find it as if you were looking for Darth Vader.

How is it known that some kind of awareness is watching?

The thoughts and the bodily sensations are much easier to look at opposed to the awareness, but the awareness is constant where the others are so changeable.

How is this known that ‘awareness’ is constant?

This is where I seem to find my sense of self but it is quiet when looked at on its own and amplified hugely when thoughts, emotions etc appear.

How a ‘sense of self’ is experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

How many ‘I’-s do you have?

• (1) The ‘I’ that seems to find the...
  (2) sense of self

We are not looking for a SENSE of self, we are looking for a REAL self, if there is any.
The sense of self is not the self.

The awareness definitely feels like its in my head. But only kind of feels like its there, I cant find it to look at like I cant grab the palm of my hand (with the same hand!),

Does it REALLY feel like that ‘awareness is in the head’?
How is it felt, with which of the 5 senses?
Is it possible that this is just the content of an arising thought?

Again, how many ‘I’-s do you have?

• (1) Awareness
  (2) That ‘thing’ that has a head (my head)

If 'you' are awareness then how can 'you' have an awareness?

Like its behind wherever im looking.

So, how can ‘you’ that is looking, behind wherever ‘you’ look?
How can ‘you’ be behind ‘yourself’?

How many ‘I’-s do you have?

• (1) The ‘I’ that is looking
  (2) The ‘I’ that is behind itself (?????)

Love, Vivien

[thompson7]

I seems that we are in different time zones. I’m in UTC+10 time zone, in Australia. So when I post it is daytime for me.

Oh, Im in the UK. everythings fine then :)

What is this ‘I’ that supposedly see the process of thought of reading?
Are the thoughts doing the reading?
Can a thought read?

That sentance wasnt my best - I meant "I see the process (or thoughts) of reading." When looking there is nothing to see whats occuring - the thoughts appear and then fade. But still a great sensation of me in the background.
The thoughts dont do the reading - reading is a just type of thought. As such I dont think a thought
could read.

What is the ‘I’ that is sitting?

If I have to break it down its the physical sensations of my body and something being aware of that.

Where is this ‘I’ exactly?
Try to find it as if you were looking for Darth Vader.

Ok, previously when looking I have looked with almost anger and frustration to see. This happened for a bit this time but then It felt like the only thing I could identify with was the sense of searching - of trying to find where this "I" is.

How is it known that some kind of awareness is watching?

Its not really known, as in thought about, as it seems outside of thoughts. I dont have to be thinking to be aware, its just there.

How is this known that ‘awareness’ is constant?

the whole time Im awake everything is pretty visable and interactive. I dont know about the entirety of when im asleep but I have been woken up by stuff so its got to be on most of the time.

How a ‘sense of self’ is experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

none of them - Just with thougths - or being alive.

How many ‘I’-s do you have?
(1) The ‘I’ that seems to find the...
(2) sense of self

There is Just the I thats looking, the "sense of self" is memories and other mental stuff.

If 'you' are awareness then how can 'you' have an awareness?

I cant, Im just the one awareness.

So, how can ‘you’ that is looking, behind wherever ‘you’ look?
How can ‘you’ be behind ‘yourself’?

I cant see that there is anything there, but there is still this overriding sensation of me-ness somewhere. Although after looking today I do feel a bit less bothered by it.

Tom

[Vivien]

Dear Tom,

When looking there is nothing to see whats occuring - the thoughts appear and then fade. But still a great sensation of me in the background.

OK, go to this sensation directly. Examine it from every possible angle.

What is this sensation?
Where and how is this sensation felt?
Find the ‘I’ in the background.

If there were an ‘I’ that it should be easy to find. Do you struggle a lot to find the food on the dinner plate, the laptop, the body, or even a thought?

If I have to break it down its the physical sensations of my body and something being aware of that.

Look for that ‘thing’ that is being aware of the body?
Where is it exactly?

Ok, previously when looking I have looked with almost anger and frustration to see. This happened for a bit this time but then It felt like the only thing I could identify with was the sense of searching - of trying to find where this "I" is.

Very good observations :)

So, what is this searching?
Is there an ‘entity’, a ‘thing’ doing the searching, or searching just happens by itself, without a doer, or an owner (you)?

Its not really known, as in thought about, as it seems outside of thoughts. I dont have to be thinking to be aware, its just there.

Let’s examine this a bit more deeply.

If awareness is outside of thoughts, and outside of the 5 senses then how it is know that it is there?
How it is experienced then, if it cannot be experienced?

What if that this awareness is just a mental label, a thought attached to the actual experience?
When you say you are aware, how is this known?

In the actual experience, there is seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling, tasting and noticing thoughts.

Where is awareness in seeing?
Where is awareness in hearing?
Where is awareness in touching/feeling?
Where is awareness in smelling?
Where is awareness in tasting?

Don’t just think about these, but actually LOOK with each question. Look at the screen and search for the awareness. Listen to the sounds and search for the awareness. Same with all the senses.

What if ‘awareness’ is just a thought that suggest “there is an awareness”?
Is there REALLY?

“I don’t have to think to be aware” – yes, this is true on the level of thoughts. But this is just a thought. What happens when you ignore all thoughts, alongside with the thoughts about awareness?

the whole time Im awake everything is pretty visable and interactive. I dont know about the entirety of when im asleep but I have been woken up by stuff so its got to be on most of the time.

These are thoughts, stories. What is behind the story? What is prior-to-thoughts?

none of them - Just with thougths - or being alive.

Can ‘being alive’ be experienced?
Or ‘being alive’ is just a mental label attached to the actual experiencing as a mental interpretation?

I cant, Im just the one awareness.

This is the content of an arising thought, a mental label that is attached to experiencing.

Love, Vivien