I'd really appreciate a guide!

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:40 am

Hello!

I've had experiences of having a quiet mind, with thought happening only when necessary, observing the specialness of the most ordinary objects and situations. There's so much peace, awe and delight in observing with complete detachment. Meditation happens, but not because of anything I do. Painting happens, through me rather than because of me.

I am tired of being so susceptible to my fears, stories and illusions. I'd really appreciate a guide.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:49 am

Hi Noo,

My name is Vivien, wonderful to have you here. Thank you for your introduction. I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

But before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

How can I call you?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:23 pm

Thank you, Vivien.

I have read through quite a bit of Gateless Gatecrashers, and I will watch the video.

I agree to all the ground rules, and I will do my best to post at least once a day.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
I expect a shift in perception, much like the times in the past when there's been an experience of life, but no self-consciousness.
How will Life change?
I expect that I won't take things personally, there'll just be a sense of watching/observing. I'll understand that things don't 'matter', that Life is happening and there'll be less of a sense of 'good or 'bad', just 'is'.
How will you change?
I will be peaceful, and understand I'm just a part of the Flow of things.
What will be different?
My sense of Self, and my sense of Life. I'll cease to take myself personally. I'll act when I act, and I won't when I don't, and I'll drop the 'shoulds'.

You can call me whatever you like! I've never been particularly attached to my name, and friends have invented a variety of nicknames for me over the years. Noo is a childhood nickname, so please feel free to either use that or invent a name for me based on whimsy!

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:49 am

Dear Noo,

Thank you for your honesty and the detailed list about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
I expect a shift in perception, much like the times in the past when there's been an experience of life, but no self-consciousness.
Yes, liberation is about a shift in perception. Life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.

However, liberation is a shift in perception it is may not that kind of shift that is currently believed about it. It is a seeing that there has never been a ‘you’ that could govern or control life or anything.

So you had an experience and now there is a desire (an expectation) to have it back?
Whatever that experience that was, it is over, it’s gone now. This experience was a state, and as any other states, it cannot last. So liberation is not about having this or any other state back.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a State. When you SEE it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I expect that I won't take things personally, there'll just be a sense of watching/observing.
Ohh, this is a HUGE expectation.
Taking things personally is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still can arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
I'll understand that things don't 'matter', that Life is happening and there'll be less of a sense of 'good or 'bad', just 'is'.
I would rather say that ‘good’ or ‘bad’ can be seen as only arising thought labels here and now. It can be seen that labels have no one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. So labelling won’t stop, but they are not taken as seriously.
I will be peaceful, and understand I'm just a part of the Flow of things.
Dear Noo, there is no ‘you’ that could be peaceful or be part of the flow of things.

Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.
I'll cease to take myself personally. I'll act when I act, and I won't when I don't, and I'll drop the 'shoulds'.
How many ‘I’-s do you have?
(1) “I that could cease to take…”
(2) “myself” personally

There is no ‘you’ that could take ‘itself’ personally. There is no ‘you’ that could act or drop anything. ‘You’ have always been an illusion, a mirage in the desert.

Should-s, would-s, could-s may or may not drop, but without an owner (you) doing it.

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this Direct Experience, or the Uninterpreted Moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:08 am

Dear Vivien,

When I read through your replies, delight arose, and at times small amounts of anger and sometimes constriction or an ache in a band around and just below my waist, (I know I could say 'the waist', but for the sake of clarity I will use 'I' and 'my' until it's no longer necessary).

Yes please to the exercises!

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:44 pm

Dear Noo,
(I know I could say 'the waist', but for the sake of clarity I will use 'I' and 'my' until it's no longer necessary).
Yes, please use the most appropriate word which sounds the truest.

OK then, let’s start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:47 pm

The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
Awareness. An experience of awareness. A receiver and transmitter of energy.
Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?
Yes, at this time I do believe that.
What does the word 'I' point to?
The thing/energy/Source that is the origin of everything. It seems like that's the real I, and this body contains a microcosm of that. When I close my eyes and think 'I', there's a ball of light.
What makes this body ‘yours’?
I perceive things that happen to it, (like being scratched or getting wet), more clearly than if the same thing happened to a table. It seems to respond to my thoughts, though not always! My body sometimes surprises me, and I don't always recognise it in reflective surfaces or in photographs.
What makes this body ‘you’?
It seems to go most of the places that my awareness of self goes, (except for in dreams, or when thinking of something or someone who isn't here. Then the awareness goes off on its own).

User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:01 pm

A question for you, Vivian, if you don't mind.

Do you still feel anger/sorrow at horrible events like wars and cruelty? If so, do you still act when there's a clear action that presents itself (donating to charity, protesting, helping out)? Or is there just an acceptance that war is, and cruelty is?

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:55 am

Dear Noo,
Vivien: The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
Noo: Awareness. An experience of awareness. A receiver and transmitter of energy.
Here is an identification with awareness. So I’m no longer this body, this personality, but from now on, ‘I am awareness’. Therefore, the belief in ‘me’ is kept ‘alive’, only the object changed, but ‘me’ the subject is totally intact.

The word ‘awareness’ can be very tricky, because it can be used for the hidden desire to have a new identification. The belief that ‘I am a separate entity’ can be replaced (or rather layered over) with a new belief “I am awareness”.

What if there was no identification whatsoever?
What if there is nothing that could identify with anything?
Are you open to the possibility that awareness is not what ‘you’ thought it was?
Are you open to the possibility that there is no ‘you’ in any shape or form, not even as an “awareness”, an “experience of awareness” or a “receiver or transmitter of energy”?


So now, we try to find the ‘owner’ of the body.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.
But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a very simple first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
What is found, what comes up?
Do you still feel anger/sorrow at horrible events like wars and cruelty? If so, do you still act when there's a clear action that presents itself (donating to charity, protesting, helping out)? Or is there just an acceptance that war is, and cruelty is?
I’d prefer not to answer these questions for the time being, because the answer would be a ground for developing new expectations on top of the ones that are already there.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:46 pm

I will reply ASAP!

User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:19 pm

Thanks for the analogies about Santa and Darth Vader, they’re very helpful.
What if there was no identification whatsoever?
What if there is nothing that could identify with anything?
Are you open to the possibility that awareness is not what ‘you’ thought it was?
Are you open to the possibility that there is no ‘you’ in any shape or form, not even as an “awareness”, an “experience of awareness” or a “receiver or transmitter of energy”?
Yes, I welcome that possibility; it would be a great relief. I’m smiling.
Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.
Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
What is found, what comes up?
What comes up is an absence rather than a presence of any thing. A sense that the words exist on a screen, and that’s all.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:02 am

Dear Noo,
Yes, I welcome that possibility; it would be a great relief. I’m smiling.
Good :)
A sense that the words exist on a screen, and that’s all.
How is this sensed, with which of the 5 senses?


Look at this statement:
'This body is mine'

Is this true? What makes it true?
If the body that appears is 'yours' then what is the owner?
Is there one here? Can it be found?
Or is this just a thought appearing that is believed in?

A thought appears 'I am this body'.
Is this anything more than a thought appearing that is believed in? (Or not believed in)?

If we say 'this body is mine' then we should be able to find the owner, the 'me' that the body belongs to.
Can the owner be found?

Is there an 'I' that experiences the body? Or is there just experiencing?

Please go through all these questions and answer ALL one-by-one.
Try to find the ‘I’ similarly as you would try to find Darth Vader.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:51 am

A sense that the words exist on a screen, and that’s all.

How is this sensed, with which of the 5 senses?
No sense, almost disinterest. An absence of sensation rather than a sense being impacted.
Look at this statement:
'This body is mine' Is this true? What makes it true?
Smiling, laughter, it’s a convenient story.
If the body that appears is 'yours' then what is the owner?
Smile, no sense, nothing.
Is there one here? Can it be found? Or is this just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Just a feeling of air moving. With closed eyes, seeing a rectangular field of light.
A thought appears 'I am this body'.
Is this anything more than a thought appearing that is believed in? (Or not believed in)?
Heaviness, I can’t believe in ‘I am this body’. It has changed so many times! This body has a will of its own.
If we say 'this body is mine' then we should be able to find the owner, the 'me' that the body belongs to.
Can the owner be found?
Sense of pressure on my throat.
Is there an 'I' that experiences the body? Or is there just experiencing?
Sense of a flow. With closed eyes, vision of a stream of data.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:07 am

Dear Noo,
Vivien: Is there one here? Can it be found? Or is this just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Noo: Just a feeling of air moving. With closed eyes, seeing a rectangular field of light.
OK, let’s examine thoughts and mental images then.

In the actual, direct experience there are:
(1) the pure sensation
(2) with a simultaneously arising thought “feeling of air moving”
(3) and mental images “rectangular field of light”

It is important to separate thoughts and mental images from the actual, direct experience. So in the DE there is only the pure sensation, but thoughts and mental images arise interpreting and suggesting meaning to the experience.

Can you see this?
Heaviness, I can’t believe in ‘I am this body’.
What is this ‘I’ that can’t believe in this?
Where is this ‘I’ exactly?
Vivien: If we say 'this body is mine' then we should be able to find the owner, the 'me' that the body belongs to.
Can the owner be found?
Noo: Sense of pressure on my throat.
You didn’t answer the question.

What is this ‘I’ that owns the throat?
Can the owner be found?
Vivien: Is there an 'I' that experiences the body? Or is there just experiencing?
Noo: Sense of a flow. With closed eyes, vision of a stream of data.
You didn’t answer the question.

With which senses the ‘flow’ is experienced (seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling)?
Is it possible that the “sense of flow” is just the content of an arising thought?

“Vision of stream of data” – there is an arising mental image that is interpreted by thoughts.
Can you see this?

Please read the questions carefully several times before answering. Don’t miss any questions, answer to ALL one-by-one.

Try to ignore all thoughts and mental images and observe only with the 5 senses.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Noo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: I'd really appreciate a guide!

Postby Noo » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:21 am

I appreciate the exercises, but am confused as to how to answer. Do you want me to answer questions like "Can the owner of the body be found" directly, (eg, No) or with what I experience with the 5 senses (eg. sense of pressure on my throat)?


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests